Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[colonelhall]

RWVBL Did you know that blood dries eventually?
I doubt if they were dripping, when they got home.

"Maybe it's just the approaching season of Halloween here in the U.S.A. that gives it that appearance..."

Hmm! What was the date when all this kicked off?Remind me.

 

[colonelhall]

Kestrel. Are you saying that we can discount anything that the pair say, on account of it being the police that made them say it, except when it suits them, in which case it is the truth?

I hardly think that a jury would go along with this one. No, I prefer to think that they took something heavy that caused memory loss or that they were lying. You can choose to think otherwise, obviously.

Either way, discussion about what they took or didn't take is pointless.

 

[Kestrel]

As far as I have read, there was not a single drop of Miss Kercher's blood found in Amanda Knox's bedroom nor was there a single drop of her blood found in Raffaele Sollecito's apartment. I would think that the cops would have checked the drain to his sink and shower for traces of it, wouldn't you?

Photographs of Raff's apartment show the sink trap has been removed. The investigators at least intended to see what was in the trap.

DNA tests of swabs taken in Raff's apartment showed his DNA, Amanda's DNA or in several cases the DNA from both of them. The expected result as both suspects had been spending a fair amount of time at his apartment.

 

[katy_did]

What I do know is Sollecito's width measurements coincide exactly with the bathmat measurements.

But piktor, both of those width measurements are Rinaldi's estimate of where the footprint would have come to if it were complete, not measurements of the actual footprint. This is especially evident with the width measurement of the big toe, which was based on Rinaldi's assumption that the mark next to the big toe was actually a part of it, while the defence argued that mark was from Guede's second toe. In your diagram, that mark isn't part of the big toe, meaning it must be from the second toe. That means the width of the big toe should only be measured to the actual mark on the bathmat, not adjusted on Rinaldi's presumption that the small mark is part of the big toe.

In other words, on your diagram the width of the big toe should be about 24mm, where Guede's foot is 23mm and Sollecito's 30mm.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I think the monitor was for the viewing for all parties concerned of what was going on inside the cottage.

Is it the black and white striped pullover that was lost but now is found?

ETA: Also to add, Charlie: Was this photo of Amanda's room (with the clothes on her bed) shown to the public through television or print media prior to the trial?

There were quite a few people in the cottage too.

I don't know which garment was the one that Filomena described, and I don't know what photos may have appeared in the Italian media. But I think it's interesting, since this is the clothing Filomena reported that Amanda was wearing on Nov. 1, that they don't seem to have tested it, or if they did, the results did not constitute an element of the prosecution's case. I'm going to see if I can get any further information about this.

 

[Kestrel]

Kestrel. Are you saying that we can discount anything that the pair say, on account of it being the police that made them say it, except when it suits them, in which case it is the truth?

I hardly think that a jury would go along with this one. No, I prefer to think that they took something heavy that caused memory loss or that they were lying. You can choose to think otherwise, obviously.

Either way, discussion about what they took or didn't take is pointless.

I am saying that the statement extracted from the suspects during the night of November 5 and 6 should not be relied upon due to the tactics used by the police.

It seems that you don't mind harsh interrogation tactics. Is sweating the truth out of the suspects the best way to find out what really happened?

After all, it could never happen to you or anyone you love. You are a good person and everyone you love is a good person. Police never arrest and interrogate people like you that are on the side of the angels.

 

[platonov]

All Tunnels lead to Seattle/Innocence

I resist the label of conspiracy theory as being inappropriate to this case for reasons I have already given.

I have no reason to believe anything other than that Dr. Giobbi believes in his investigative approach, however discredited I think it is. I think it is likely that some people in the police department have doubts but don't want to make waves. Consider the film "The Thin Blue Line." There is one Vidor, TX policeman who clearly knows that Randall Adams is not the shooter and David Harris is. Yet even he does not come out and say so on camera, he just implies it.

So its all down to Giobbi - or his overconfidence in his methods.
OK but this fails to deal with all the other evidence \ actors in this case.

Presumably the Tunnel Vision in the title of your post refers to Giobbi. I'd need panoramic vision to follow the many conflicting theories (Charlie Wilkes and Kaosium are clear that its a conspiracy) posted here which all end in the innocence (surprise/surprise) of AK.

That begins to look like using the 'evidence' to reach a predetermined conclusion - the hallmark of CT's.
[ Ironically what almost all those involved in the case are accused of doing ]



On the subject of strained analogies to other cases of Fit_Ups - Nobody denies they happen.

You posted the case of ......

SomeAlibi,

I don’t have an explanation. But neither do I have an explanation for why D.A. Michael Nifong and police officer Gottlieb tried to frame three upper middle class or even well-to-do and well connected lacrosse students. I am not sorry in the least that they had expensive lawyers. They earned their money, by showing that Dr. Meehan and Mr. Nifong in effect conspired to hide exculpatory DNA evidence. The point is that it happened. Read more in the book "Until Proven Innocent," by Stuart Taylor and KC Johnson.

How is that relevant to this case which you now say is due to Giobbi's approach.
This analogy is not even consistent with your own position leaving aside everything else.

D.A. Michael Nifong is presumably an analogue of Mignini or Comodi or both ??

ETA In your defence its closer to the mark than Dreyfuss

.

 

[JREF2010]

As far as I have read, there was not a single drop of Miss Kercher's blood found in Amanda Knox's bedroom nor was there a single drop of her blood found in Raffaele Sollecito's apartment. I would think that the cops would have checked the drain to his sink and shower for traces of it, wouldn't you?

How did these 2 "stoners" mangage to get rid of their bloody clothing without leaving a trace of evidence behind that they changed out of bloody clothing to clean, unstained clothing before the cops showed up?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

I edited for two points you made, my guess is from the Prosecution standpoint, because there was no blood found in the sink its only because Amanda and Raffaele swapped sinks.

The same for the clothes without bloodstains, they were an identical set of clothing with non-blood.

yes, kind of like the identical mop and bucket they also swapped before the Postal police arrived.

This was all planned out during one of Amandas Hard-A alcoholic blackouts that she hid from everyone her entire life.

Unfortunately I can't prove any of this but that doesn't seem to matter.

 

[RWVBWL]

RWVBL Did you know that blood dries eventually?
I doubt if they were dripping, when they got home.

"Maybe it's just the approaching season of Halloween here in the U.S.A. that gives it that appearance..."

Hmm! What was the date when all this kicked off?Remind me.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi Colonelhall,
Of course blood dries, even fake blood too, for Miss Kercher had some still on her chin on the morning after Halloween, IIRC.

But I thought that, according to B. Nadeau's book "Angel Face",
Nara Capezzali heard a "blood curdling scream, it made my skin crawl" and then afterwards heard 3 or 4 people running away?

So wouldn't any blood, if it where on Amanda Knox's and Raffaele Sollecito's clothing at the time, still have been wet?

Some might suggest Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, who it appears were "stoned" much of their time together,
were so careful during and after "their" involvement in an extremely bloody murder that they did not get any of Miss Kercher's blood on themselves
I don't believe that...

But if they did get Miss Kercher's blood on them, don't you think that at some point they would have inadvertaintly bumped into or come into any contact with any other household structures or items, such as while walking thru a doorway, past a couch, etc, and wouldn't they have then left a trace of Miss Kercher's blood, either wet or, as you wrote, dried, while in Raffaele Sollecito's apartment?

What about when they changed out of the bloody clothes that they surely must have had on after she was murdered?
Wouldn't some of Miss Kercher's blood, either dried or slightly still wet, have touched something or gotten somewhere at least once, that the police could have and would have found?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[LondonJohn]

The police told Amanda and Raff they had clear video evidence of Amanda going to the cottage the night of the murder. Amanda and Raff didn't remember this happening, so that makes them liars? Even when it's been proven that the police were lying about the video evidence?

If you watched the Kassin video posted yesterday, you would understand the Perugia police used the methods Kassin described as leading to false statements. Make false claims that you have evidence against the defendant. Keep the suspects up late to put them into a sleep deprived state, keep them away from legal advice. Yell at them, scream at them, slap them around a bit to help disorient them. Make the suspects answer the same questions again and again for hours on end. Then start suggesting they had a memory loss. Ask them to visualize what must have happened during their memory lapse.

The goal of Amanda and Raff's interrogations that night wasn't to find the truth. It was to extract statements matching the prosecution's conspiracy theory.

And I can't help coming back to Perugia Police Chief De Felice's triumphalist press conference, held on the 6th November, just after the "perp walk" and disgraceful motorcade parade of Knox, Sollecito and Lumumba through the old town, in which he said the following:

"Initially the American (Knox) gave a version of events we knew was not correct. She buckled and made an admission of facts we knew were correct, and from that we were able to bring them all in. They all participated but had different roles."

This, to me, speaks volumes about the way the police approached the interrogations of Knox and Sollecito on the 5th/6th.

 

[RWVBWL]

Can you folks correct me if I am wrong,
BUT didn't Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito smoke a joint the same morning Miss Kercher was found murdered?

If so, I for 1 can see why Amanda Knox did not call the cops right away, for who would want to speak to them right after they had blazed?
And then have them come over to your house for what just seemed like, at first, odd happenings, and then a short while later, a probable burglary?

Heck, Raffaele, according to Candace Dempsey's book "Murder in Italy" pages 139 -145, was even stoned the fatefull night of the 5th, when he was "broken".
I for 1 can easily see why "Raffaele seemed "confused and nervous", said police officer Danielle Moscatelli, etc.
Who wouldn't be after smoking out and then having to deal, once again with the questioning of the police, very late in the evening...

Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[colonelhall]

"It seems that you don't mind harsh interrogation tactics. Is sweating the truth out of the suspects the best way to find out what really happened?"

Depends on what you mean. Could you give me the exact details of the "sweating" techniques used? It appears that some are believing Mr. Moore's claims of "waterboarding". Well, you can believe anything that you want, but without pictures of the scars, the absence of fingernails, bruises etc. I think that we have to take that man's statements with a pinch of salt, don't you. I believe that even London John has his doubts about Mr. Moore.

 

[Kaosium]

Do you consider those of us who support Knox part of the kook farm? That seems to be your implication. The idea that somehow courts and prosecutors are always right and anyone who disputes this is a nut case.

But to some, it's easier to call anyone who disputes the Italian prosecutor a kook. Redefining sanity as "taking the side of the authority figure".

No, you misunderstood.

Sorry, I had just realized how pathetic the case was against her and Raffaele, and I felt embarrassed that there was ever any doubt in my mind as to their innocence.

 

[LondonJohn]

halides1, thank you for your kind words.

If I wanted to "play around" with the images, I could have. I used photos as presented on the internet.

I used as guidance the green dots that intersect the horizontal and vertical arrows on the big toes and forefeet of Sollecito and Guede.

Each one can draw their own conclusions. I am not an expert on footprint measurements, so I used a neutral reference point for both footprints.

The Perugia experts discarded Guede and found Sollecito "compatible".

The 99mm measurement does indeed look "funny", because it is Sollecito's width (Guede's is 96mm.), also, Guede's big toe fits the bathmat measurement height but is exactly Sollecito's wide measurement.

My conclusion is Guede's sample footprint was made wide through computer manipulation, either intentional or accidental. Or the bathmat photo was the one that became distorted, whichever. I did not make Guede's sample footprint wider, shorter, narrower or change it in any way at all.

The top outlines showing the "purple" outline on black background show the two foot shapes are not similar at all.

The right edge Halides mentions has a sweep that matches Sollecito's. If I had moved Guede's right outline more to the left neither of the green dots would coincide with Guede's markers and the right downward sweep on the bathmat would look even more like Sollecito's.

I will move Guede's outline as Halides suggests and present it.

I'm sorry, but your revised overlay of reference prints to the bath mat print shows even more clearly, if anything, what ridiculous pseudoscience this all is. If you think that Sollecito's reference print matches that bath print exactly, then you need an eye test (among many other things, where's that blob of blood to the right of "Sollecito's" big toe come from?). And Guede's print tends to match it better, but I'd conclude that neither reference print can be matched to the bath mat print with any certainty whatsoever.

But well done for congratulating yourself on your work.

 

[Fuji]

_________________________________________________________________

Hi there Fuji,
It's too bad that the cops fried Amanda Knox's laptop computer,
for maybe some of the photographs of Merredith and Amanda together that were on it

How do you know there were photos of the pair together on the computer?

might have "helped"
the police prove that Amanda had on a missing murder outfit on the night Miss Kercher was brutally stabbed to her death.

Evidently, this hypothesized "help" was not a requisite for attaining their convictions.

I wonder how it came to be that Amanda Knox nor Raffaele Sollecito had not 1 drop of Meredith Kercher's blood on any item of their clothing?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Again, you have no way of knowing this. NO ONE (other than the convicted) has any way of knowing this.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

No, you misunderstood.

Sorry, I had just realized how pathetic the case was against her and Raffaele, and I felt embarrassed that there was ever any doubt in my mind as to their innocence.

Hi Kaosium,

Sorry I haven't welcomed you to the board - I don't post much but do try to read everything. You have made some good contributions and I look forward to reading more.

Just to clarify, I believe that KESTREL'S post was directed at the Colonel, not you.

 

[Kestrel]

"It seems that you don't mind harsh interrogation tactics. Is sweating the truth out of the suspects the best way to find out what really happened?"

Depends on what you mean. Could you give me the exact details of the "sweating" techniques used? It appears that some are believing Mr. Moore's claims of "waterboarding". Well, you can believe anything that you want, but without pictures of the scars, the absence of fingernails, bruises etc. I think that we have to take that man's statements with a pinch of salt, don't you. I believe that even London John has his doubts about Mr. Moore.

Is sleep deprivation, yelling, screaming and an occasional slap on the head just fine with you?

We know for a fact that Amanda was interviewed for at least 8 hours on each of the days up to the night in question. We know from an intercepted phone call the day before that she hadn't been sleeping well. Rather understandable after a friend had been murdered. We know both of them attended classed the morning and afternoon of the 5th. They didn't get a chance to catch up on sleep. Imagine if you can going into an all night screaming session in that sleep deprived state.

BTW: Toward the end of the "Don't talk to the police" video I posted earlier, you will hear a statement from a police officer who did some work in Italy mention that in Italy, interrogations start out physically.

 

[Kestrel]

No, you misunderstood.

Sorry, I had just realized how pathetic the case was against her and Raffaele, and I felt embarrassed that there was ever any doubt in my mind as to their innocence.

Sorry about that. I hadn't looked back at all of your posts and didn't understand your statements were referring to sites like PMF.

 

[Chris C]

I got some questions about the bath mat.
1. Whose blood is it. I haven't been able to find where a dna test came back saying it was meredith's
2. What tests where performed on it to verify it was blood.

 

[Kestrel]

I got some questions about the bath mat.
1. Whose blood is it. I haven't been able to find where a dna test came back saying it was meredith's
2. What tests where performed on it to verify it was blood.

The bathmat was improperly stored and developed a fine crop of mold. It could not be tested for DNA.

It's almost certainly Meredith's blood. Most of the images of this stain were taken after it was chemically enhanced. The stain is much darker than it would have appeared the morning after the murder.