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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Let us not make unwarranted assumptions

London John: "Let's see what the appeal courts say, shall we?"

Excellent! At last someone is talking sense. Does that mean we can all shut up now?

( I take it that we DO all agree that Amanda Knox was NOT convicted because of the cartwheels. though )

No. There are two people we would have to ask to know why she was convicted.
 
Halides1

Which is why I asked many posts ago for what AK had to say on the matter in Dec 07' and we are no closer to an answer.

If I may be permitted a tenuous comparison perhaps the jury viewed AK's meandering and obfuscation in the same way as I (and perhaps others) are viewing these exchanges ??

I do recall reading this, as I recall in the context it was presented it didn't make her look good at all, it was part of the 'Amanda changed her story!' meme. I just spent a fair amount of time looking for that exact statement, and I cannot find it specifically. However the last hour or so I spent trudging through 'sources' like the UK's Daily Mail makes me want to take a shower. Thank you for that experience! :p

However I found the explanation that it was a result of that interrogation procedure more compelling. I have done more research on that whole debacle since we last spoke, and while you are correct it didn't occur after the entire ordeal, it was in fact during the part where her and Rafaele were being interrogated separately, and the statement produced after long hours of questioning. It sounds like the the police were playing The Prisoners' Dilemma with her and her boyfriend, and if you do the math it is better to falsely accuse than to remain silent unless you are absolutely certain the other will not break.

However it is peripheral to whether she is actually guilty. She could have confessed completely and it still wouldn't explain why there's no evidence of her at the murder scene and why she has an electronic alibi for the (far more probable approaching near-certainty) time of death. That might be why no one else is interested in digging through the trash to find that exact statement. At worst perhaps she did break and 'accuse' her boss and implicate her boyfriend under duress. So what? Isn't being defamed worldwide and three years in prison enough?
 
Hi Piktor, do you know what time of death was used to convict rudy? I've read in several places that it wasn't the same as the TOD for the Amanda/Raffael trial but I've not seen it posted anywhere. Thanks in advance.
I found this link that deals with the Micheli report. I do not know if Micheli sets a ToD because the events at the cottage are based on evidence and ToD is a cold number with no precise corroboration by any party in this investigation and cannot be corroborated in any precise manner.

It seems to me Micheli has left this subject imprecise because it is so.

Machiavelli has stated here that establishing ToD was not important to the judges, probably because there is no factual evidence to establish ToD. I have not read from any expert at trial pinpointing a number, but an approximate ToD.

http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C343/
 
Well, we'll see. I admire your levels of certainty. Especially interesting is your assertion that the defendants "confirm guilt through evident "misstatements", again and again and again". I'd be very interested indeed to understand how the words spoken by Knox and Sollecito served to "confirm their guilt".

And we'll also see if the investigation that was apparently "corroborated again and again and again" is corroborated further by an independent group of judges.......
It is all about "being there". Investigators were there. Prosecutors were there. Judges were there. They all watched the evidence, the defense, the defendants.

To my eyes, the defense had nothing to defend their clients with. The prosecution prevailed because the defense had no arguments or evidence to sway the judges.

I am convinced the three defendants here are being deceptive. It is a flight from truth. What is it they are fleeing from?
 
_____________________

Well, Charlie, Raffaele didn't exactly share the residence. The only other instance of detected DNA for Raffaele in the cottage was found on a cigarette butt in an ash tray. That was not random, and not caused by dirty gloves. Right? If, instead, they had found Rudy's DNA on the same cigarette butt, now that would have been paradoxical and could be explained as contamination. Likewise, if they had discovered Raffaele's DNA on, say, Laura's toothbrush. You get the picture. If the forensic police were being so sloppy shouldn't we expect such paradoxical discoveries? So,....was any DNA discovered which was paradoxical? Or did the cops just hide that information too?

///

I can't explain the bra fastener, except to say that either it's a random fluke, or it was deliberately tampered with. The official premise is that three people killed Meredith, one of them left a clear pattern of evidence that includes shoe prints, fingerprints, and multiple DNA traces, whereas the other two left no physical trace at all except this one trace of DNA on a bra fastener. That's not plausible.
 
I can provide you a link
http://wildgreta.wordpress.com/2007/12/18/sei-ore-di-interrogatorio-per-amanda-knox-che-crolla/

I give you a translation of the first and last paragraph - and you can see it is a bit different to CD.

While waiting for platonov to make a point and for the rest of the translation (thanks Mrs.Columbo!) I thought there are some interesting facts we can extract from the already translated part. First of all we must take into account that it was leaked by the prosecution. That means, as Machiavelli helpfully explained, that the misinformation it contains is a method to put pressure on the arrested, to break the defense and elicit some kind of confession (or concession or maybe even a deal). Apart from it I think that it's also a standard smear campaign move.

Tears, yells, contradictions – and then just silence. After 6 hours of interrogation in Capanne prison Amanda Knox breaks down: when questioned why she accused Patrick Lumumba, and furthermore when PM Giuliano Mignini asked her to explain how she was able to know specifics about the positions of the body of Meredith Kercher, which could only be known by a person who was present at the house in Via della Pergola in the night of 1st november.

First of all we know that she didn't break down, that's Mignini's wishful thinking :) but there are also facts:
Mignini used the trick of false evidence - accused her that she knew the position of the body, while in fact from what we now know, what she said proves exactly the opposite - she had no idea of the position of the body, she thought the victim was found in the closet with a foot sticking out. Apparently that's what she understood from the frenzy of Italian talk after the body was discovered.

Already in difficulties, the American definitively broke down under the question about Patrick: „Why did you accuse him?“ She did not answer, hesitated for a moment and then started to yell repeating the same phrases (written also in her memorial before she was sent to prison) – „I see the flash! I see the flash“ – and broke in tears. –‚She did exactly the same in the Questura‘ told someone who was assisting at the scene.

:confused: Now that's very interesting. There was nothing of that kind in the written "gift" of 6 Nov 2007. But she indeed wrote about flashbacks, not flashes. I can think of a few explanations how it was leaked in such a form to the press.

A) The press completely distorted what Mignini intended to leak. Hmm. That one is not very plausible.
B) Mignini had no good translator available during the interrogation and completely couldn't understand what was she saying. But that would mean that her 6 Nov note had been also mistranslated - or he wouldn't notice the similarity.
C) He knew exactly what she said, but leaked such misinformation, because it creates a picture of a hysteric, lying, nuts girl who goes into some kind of seizures every time she's asked a question.

But both from what she wrote and from her court testimony we know that she can perfectly well relate what happened during the illegal interrogation. It's true that she's been traumatized by it and I can easily believe that she cried when questioned again by the criminal(*) Mignini. It's true that she had no knowledge of internalized false confessions so she couldn't explain why they managed to undermine her confidence in reality and plant false memories in her (flashbacks) but she very well described the process.

To summarize, everything that Amanda said and wrote about the interrogation, starting from her 6 Nov note, strengthens the internalized false confession scenario.


(*) according to the "plausible bunch" Amanda is a convicted murderer, that makes Mignini a convicted criminal also.
 
No. There are two people we would have to ask to know why she was convicted.

You've lost me there. Who would these be?

So you are saying that we are not in agreement about the cartwheels. O.K. let's get back to the original topic then.

The rest of the stuff that I am reading seems to be suggesting that those who disagree with the unanimous verdict believe that there is some kind of conspiracy going on. If so, why not start a new conspiracy thread and leave the rest of us getting to the bottom of these cartwheels?
 
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Piktor,

Your answer does not address the fact that the forensic evidence made Guede a suspect, but it was analyzed after Sollecito and Knox were in custody. I cannot force any person to pay attention to the problem of investigator bias, but there is no good reason for me to ignore it.

The electronic data files and other DNA forensic files were not released to the defense. Why should anyone draw a conclusion about the verdict when the defense did not have an adequate opportunity to challenge the evidence?
If the fsa. files were not released the appeal hearing will have to address the fact, if the defense is worth its salt.

If the investigation was biased, then it is a conspiracy by all parties, including the defense.

The defendants put themselves where they are.
 
I do recall reading this, as I recall in the context it was presented it didn't make her look good at all, it was part of the 'Amanda changed her story!' meme. I just spent a fair amount of time looking for that exact statement, and I cannot find it specifically. However the last hour or so I spent trudging through 'sources' like the UK's Daily Mail makes me want to take a shower. Thank you for that experience! :p

However I found the explanation that it was a result of that interrogation procedure more compelling. I have done more research on that whole debacle since we last spoke, and while you are correct it didn't occur after the entire ordeal, it was in fact during the part where her and Rafaele were being interrogated separately, and the statement produced after long hours of questioning. It sounds like the the police were playing The Prisoners' Dilemma with her and her boyfriend, and if you do the math it is better to falsely accuse than to remain silent unless you are absolutely certain the other will not break.

However it is peripheral to whether she is actually guilty. She could have confessed completely and it still wouldn't explain why there's no evidence of her at the murder scene and why she has an electronic alibi for the (far more probable approaching near-certainty) time of death. That might be why no one else is interested in digging through the trash to find that exact statement. At worst perhaps she did break and 'accuse' her boss and implicate her boyfriend under duress. So what? Isn't being defamed worldwide and three years in prison enough?

The statements she signed let Raffaele off the hook, because she supposedly told him she had to go to work and then left to meet Lumumba. They really had no evidence or statements with which to hold him, and no one said anything about group sex or a "sex game," but that didn't stop them from pitching this idiotic fable at their press conference.

One thing I notice about these bozos in Perugia that reminds me of hick detectives in the US - the weaker the case, and the dumber the theory behind it, the greater the certainty with which they announce their findings. I'm thinking of the WM3 detective who was asked how sure he was, on a scale of one to ten, that he had the right guys. "Eleven" he said without missing a beat. And of course he got a round of applause. Mr. Bigshot solves the case hy-yuk yuk yuk.
 
Platonov,

From Frank’s blog on 18 December, “Amanda's lawyer Luciano Ghirga has denied everything that was published yesterday about Amanda's interrogation. I said "we don't know too much" but, as always, newspapers knew everything. Yesterday the interrogation was just finished and they were already describing it in details, what she said, the way she was crying, when she refused to answer... Everything as if they were present to it... What to say? Keep on buying newspapers...”

(emphasis added)

I respectfully suggest that the newspaper story you quoted is not accurate.

But it was also published in La Repubblica
http://www.repubblica.it/2007/12/se...ornata-amanda/giornata-amanda.html?ref=search

and here: http://www.rainews24.rai.it/it/news.php?newsid=76808

It was not in the courtroom, but the interrogation took place in the prison Dopo sei ore di interrogatorio nel carcere di Pistoia,

But of course I see if I can find out more about L.Ghirga's quote.
 
may I suggest that the word conspiracy is being misused

You've lost me there. Who would these be?

So you are saying that we are not in agreement about the cartwheels. O.K. let's get back to the original topic then.

The rest of the stuff that I am reading seems to be suggesting that those who disagree with the unanimous verdict believe that there is some kind of conspiracy going on. If so, why not start a new conspiracy thread and leave the rest of us getting to the bottom of these cartwheels?

colonelhall,

I think that Dr. Giobbi and PM Mignini decided that AK and RS were guilty fairly early on, and everyone else fell into line. Calling it a conspiracy is a Stilicho-inspired misnomer, IMO. Conspiracy theorists are people who are trying to explain something that is not true; for example, a claim that no Jewish people died in the WTC because they were all contacted by Mossad and told to stay home that day is a conspiracy theory. Unfortunately false accusations (for example, Duke lacrosse), and false convictions (for example, Randall Adams) happen all of the time. Some false accusations/convictions happen because of a degree of collusion within LE, but I doubt that all of them are. The case of Patricia Stallings does not have any collusion (to the best of my knowledge), but it does have serious investigator bias.
 
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MrsColumbo

Thanks for the translation - I look forward to the rest.
One could be churlish and complain that is not AK's own words but if the description posted is even close to accurate it would certainly explain why the Q has not been answered on this board by the Innocentisti.

Do you also do english - english translations :):); some posters are claiming not to understand the Q.:eye-poppi
Between you and me the jury looks with disdain on this suggestion. Even Old Foss is rolling his eyes.


A) the other part of translation will be completed soon

B) sorry, no - as I am neither english nor italian speaker
 
The discussion has moved forward.

But where is your "first-hand" knowledge of what Knox might or might not have said in the December 07 interrogations by Mignini? I wasn't aware that direct transcripts of these interrogations were in the public domain.


Platonov,

Ms. Dempsey does read and speak Italian, so your claim is nonsense. What did Amanda Knox say, and what is your source?

Are these requests for 'cites' I see before me.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp


Katody Matrass has already asked and I responded here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6438121#post6438121

and here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6439143#post6439143.

The discussion has moved forward & we have reached a resolution of sorts. ie your silence speaks volumes - as did AK's on this issue.

In real life - inferences are drawn.

You may not like it but there we are.

At this stage even Old Foss has wandered away with a sarcastic comparision to Macavity (another literary cat apparently) - reference was made to dodgy alibis , fish suppers and sharp practice at cards.:)


As regards C Dempseys facility with Italian - its a minor point which doesn't address the substantive issue .
If you say she now does I'm happy to take you at your word or at least agree to differ.
Self improvement is always to be applauded.
 
I do recall reading this, as I recall in the context it was presented it didn't make her look good at all, it was part of the 'Amanda changed her story!' meme. I just spent a fair amount of time looking for that exact statement, and I cannot find it specifically. However the last hour or so I spent trudging through 'sources' like the UK's Daily Mail makes me want to take a shower. Thank you for that experience! :p

However I found the explanation that it was a result of that interrogation procedure more compelling. I have done more research on that whole debacle since we last spoke, and while you are correct it didn't occur after the entire ordeal, it was in fact during the part where her and Rafaele were being interrogated separately, and the statement produced after long hours of questioning. It sounds like the the police were playing The Prisoners' Dilemma with her and her boyfriend, and if you do the math it is better to falsely accuse than to remain silent unless you are absolutely certain the other will not break.

However it is peripheral to whether she is actually guilty. She could have confessed completely and it still wouldn't explain why there's no evidence of her at the murder scene and why she has an electronic alibi for the (far more probable approaching near-certainty) time of death. That might be why no one else is interested in digging through the trash to find that exact statement. At worst perhaps she did break and 'accuse' her boss and implicate her boyfriend under duress. So what? Isn't being defamed worldwide and three years in prison enough?

Kaosium

I (respectfully) think you may be confusing the Nov 5 and Dec 17 'interrogation' and the connection therein.
If we ever get a response on the 'internalized false confession' Q all should be clear.
 
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Kaosium

I (respectfully) think you may be confusing the Nov 5 and Dec 17 statements and the connection therein.
If we ever get a response on the 'internalized false confession' Q all should be clear.

Where did you get your transcription of the December 2007 interrogation of Knox by Mignini? I'm assuming of course that you're not relying on portions deliberately leaked to the media by the prosecution, which themselves may or may not be verbatim.
 
clear declarative sentences often work well

Are these requests for 'cites' I see before me.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp


Katody Matrass has already asked and I responded here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6438121#post6438121

and here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6439143#post6439143.

The discussion has moved forward & we have reached a resolution of sorts. ie your silence speaks volumes - as did AK's on this issue.

In real life - inferences are drawn.

You may not like it but there we are.

At this stage even Old Foss has wandered away with a sarcastic comparision to Macavity (another literary cat apparently) - reference was made to dodgy alibis , fish suppers and sharp practice at cards.:)


As regards C Dempseys facility with Italian - its a minor point which doesn't address the substantive issue .
If you say she now does I'm happy to take you at your word or at least agree to differ.
Self improvement is always to be applauded.

Platonov,

Ms. Knox was questioned for many hours on 17 December. There does not appear to be a transcript of her answers in the public domain. Therefore, one must use less direct sources. Ms. Dempsey learned Italian before the start of the trial, so any implication to the contrary is false. It was you who brought it up to disregard pp. 234-238 of her book, which covers this interrogation. Do you now accept Ms. Dempsey as a source? Do you have a source?

I looked at the replies that you gave above, and found that they were not answers to the question I asked. Nor have you engaged the arguments from those who have concluded it was an internalized false confession. May I offer the suggestion that the conversation would move more quickly if your replies were more responsive and less conclusory?

I have been far from silent on this issue (contrary to your words), but (and I say this without rancor), you have not expressed yourself clearly. I am afraid that I must be more direct. Do you claim that Ms. Knox reiterated her statement that Mr. Lumumba was involved? If so, why? If not, then why (as you stated in one of your early comments) would her answer "cut to the heart of the matter?"
 
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colonelhall,

I think that Dr. Giobbi and PM Mignini decided that AK and RS were guilty fairly early on, and everyone else fell into line. Calling it a conspiracy is a Stilicho-inspired misnomer, IMO. Conspiracy theorists are people who are trying to explain something that is not true; for example, a claim that no Jewish people died in the WTC because they were all contacted by Mossad and told to stay home that day is a conspiracy theory. Unfortunately false accusations (for example, Duke lacrosse), and false convictions (for example, Randall Adams) happen all of the time. Some false accusations/convictions happen because of a degree of collusion within LE, but I doubt that all of them are. The case of Patricia Stallings does not have any collusion (to the best of my knowledge), but it does have serious investigator bias.

Absolutely. The very word "conspiracy" has extremely strong connotations, particularly post-9/11. In the world of law enforcement and justice, however, there doesn't need to be anything remotely approaching a conspiracy for a miscarriage of justice to occur.

It's worth noting that in any investigation and prosecution of a criminal offence, there is a built-in asymmetry which is utterly reliant on the probity of police and prosecutors to redress. This is because the investigation is not only carried out by police and prosecutors, but it is directed by them as well. So if the police/prosecutors choose to focus in on specific suspect(s) and theories to the exclusion of others, this will inevitably colour the investigation and presentation of the case. It is they who choose whom to prosecute and what evidence to put before the courts, but it's also their responsibility to share everything that they find with the defence teams.

Of course, the one big advantage held by the defence side is that the burden of proof at trial lies solely with the prosecution, who must prove the defendants' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. such that a reasonable-minded person would have no doubts as to the guilt of the defendants).

It's my opinion that in this particular instance the system has acted imperfectly in both of these areas. I believe that the police/prosecutors' investigation and prosecution may have been slanted towards confirming a very early group-sex theory of the crime (viz the police statements as early as the 6th November, and Police Chief de Felice's infamous communication to the media on around November 7th, where he clearly indicated that the police knew in advance what Knox was going to say in her "confession/accusation" of the 5th/6th).

Thereafter, I believe that the entire investigation may have been influenced by seeking to find evidence to confirm this early theory. So, for example, the break-in was readily dismissed as staged, since if it had been a real break-in, the group-sex theory would have taken a big hit. So proper investigation of Filomena's room or the window or the outside wall or ground was never carried out. And curious incidents such as Knox's HIV test and list of lovers, and the discovery of Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp over six weeks after the crime, raise further questions about the direction of the investigation.

Also, as we have seen, the police/prosecutors have been less than forthright in their sharing of information with the defence. Clear examples of this include the underlying DNA test data, and the obfuscation around whether certain footprints were or were not tested for blood. This does not engender confidence in the police and prosecutors, and raises questions as to whether other interesting evidence might have been found which has never been disclosed because it doesn't support the police/prosecution's case.

And I believe that the case that was put before the court in Perugia may well not have met the criteria for proof beyond a reasonable doubt. In my opinion, neither the prosecution's case, nor the court's reasoning (which drove a coach and horses through several key parts of the prosecution's case, and came up with its own baffling hybrid) were sufficient to prove guilt. I believe that the defence teams may have been, to a degree, imperfect in the way that they sought to raise reasonable doubt in certain key areas, but that also the court seemed pre-disposed to favour the prosecution's version over the defence's version in a number of areas without any foundation.

So, in summary: no conspiracy, and none required. All that's necessary is a powerful and zealous prosecutor and police force who have nailed their colours to the mast very early on, and who are determined not to be proven wrong. Then, an ensuing investigation and prosecution which is coloured by this overarching mandate, and where confirmation bias clearly begins to take hold (the instruction to find Meredith's DNA on the kitchen knife, leading to the over-cranking of the testing equipment, being just one example). And lastly, a trial process which appears to subvert the maxim of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, aided by a less-than-perfect defence and a powerful lead prosecutor, and with an automatic appeals process on the horizon.
 
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Yes but the point is that it looks A) not very accurate
B) like it's origin is the prosecution

What do you make from the "vedo i flash, vedo i flash"?

Looks like it's plural, for one thing ("i" being plural "the"). So apparently Amanda was sitting there yelling "I see the flashes, I see the flashes". LOL. I wondered if it was some sort of idiom I don't know about, but I don't think so, I think it's just a very bizarre translation.

Since the article says Amanda repeated what she wrote in her handwritten note, I think you're right, it must be referring to the "flashbacks" she mentions there. So she was probably saying, in response to the questioning about the accusation of Patrick, that during the November 5/6 interrogation she had had "flashbacks" of Patrick as the murderer, and that's why she thought it could be true.

Here's an interesting bit from Amanda's testimony about the translator in that interrogation...

CDV: Were you satisfied with the translation from Italian into English and
back, during the interrogation?

GCM: Excuse me, first can you explain if you were able to evaluate the
translation? Were you able to tell whether the translation was exact or
not? Whether it corresponded?

AK: No. I was quite frustrated with her, because she would take something
I said in a hundred words and say it in two, and then she used words that
weren't right, and then she forgot to tell me things that the pubblico
ministero had said. There was a lot of confusion.

CDV: How long did that interrogation last? Do you remember?

AK: At least six or seven hours.

CDV: Do you remember that the recording of the interrogation was then
translated by another person?

AK: I know it was translated, but I didn't know it was translated by another
person or the same one. I don't know.

CDV: And do you remember that it was necessary to translate also the
translator, the interpreter, this Giulia Clemish?

AK: [Laughing] Oh yes, true. Right.

CDV: So the interrogation that we have in the dossier is a translation
of the interrogation, and also of the translation made by that interpreter.

AK: Yes.

CDV: Who was German-speaking.

AK: Yes. It was a big mess.

No wonder she saw the flashes.
 
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