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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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A few of us have been posting photos of Meredith Kercher's bedroom lately trying to analyze the crime scene. I've been finding it extremely fascinating how much you can learn just by really trying to read the scene. Did you see that discussion at all? I agree there has been way more discussion analyzing Filomena's window than Meredith Kercher's bedroom. That is one of the reason's I've been trying to bring the discussion back to the bedroom where the murder occurred. There have been a few interesting thoughts coming out I think. :)

I have about 24 hours worth of reading over the past few days, and memories of my first foray into this issue, all scrambling inside my head right now. I have seen many pictures of the scene, including the bedroom, but I still tend to get mixed up about which bloody footprint is which and which actually wasn't blood but traces of it revealed by Luminol and whatnot. If it was recently in this thread I'm pretty sure I would have read it.

I also tend to be more interested in the actual murder site. The window, while revealing some of the more absurd leaps of logic of the Italian investigators, doesn't appear to contain an absolute vacuum in the prosecutions theory. Where crumbled glass was, when it got there and how, and which walls can be scaled and why choose that one is at least debatable. I want to know where Amanda and/or Raffaele got the levitating hazmat suit, where she was trained in its use, and how she disposed of it. Or at least a theory that otherwise explains there not being any sign of them at the scene where you have a terrified girl fighting for her life spraying blood everywhere.
 
Charlie, I thought they did test the cigarette butts, wasn't Raffaele's DNA found on one. There are also pictures showing the forensics collecting the bloodied tissues. How do you know they didn't then test them?

http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1693

http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1692

You misunderstand my point. Yes, they tested them. They found Raffaele and Amanda's DNA on Sample 145, a cigarette butt in the kitchen ashtray. They also obtained the following results:

Sample 11, tissue paper found on the line of pavement (vicinity of the lawn) in front of the entry of the lower apartment, revealed the DNA of an unknown male.

Sample 17, bloody tissue paper marked with the letter “C” found on the right side of the wall of the path that leads to the house of the Via della Pergola Nb. 7 (report of exhibits and attachments 11/05/2007), revealed the DNA (blood) of an unknown female.

Sample 18, bloody tissue paper marked with the letter "D" found in Via Della Pergola, revealed the DNA (blood) of a second unknown male.

Sample 19, bloody tissue paper marked with the sign “DX” found in Via S. Antonio (report descriptive survey carried out by the Gabinetto Provinciale (Provincial Laboratory) of the Forensic Police of Perugia), revealed the DNA (blood) of a second unknown female.

Sample 20, bloody tissue paper marked with the sign “SX” found in Via S. Antonio (Report of descriptive survey carried out by Gabbinetto Provinciale (Provincial Laboratory) of the Forensic Police of Perugia), revealed the DNA of the same female as Rep. 19.

Samples 142, 143, and 144, cigarette butts from the ashtray in the kitchen, revealed the DNA of a third unknown male.


So, to summarize, they found bloody tissues with the DNA of four unknown people, two males and two females, and they found cigarette butts with the DNA of a third unknown male. But they made no effort to investigate further or determine who these unknown people might be.

I can assure you, from following criminal investigations, that when an intruder commits a homicide in someone's house, one of the first tasks in a well-run investigation is to get DNA samples from everyone in the household. That way, they can eliminate samples of no importance. But here they found the blood of multiple individuals, they don't know whose it is, and they have made no effort to find out. Why is that? The obvious answer is because it wouldn't help them nail Amanda and Raffaele, and that is all they care about.

These cops in Perugia bungled this case from top to bottom. In fairness, this is common in many small police departments everywhere, because they don't get many homicides, so they don't have the resources or training to do a good job. That is forgivable. What is unforgivable is for them to pin medals on each others' chests and continue to insist they did a great job.
 
Regarding the absence of any trace Ms. Knox at the scene of the crime. I note that someone once said that there was not one iota of evidence that puts her in the murder room. In fact, I believe that possibly more than one person has stated this.

I thought that she had already explained to the police that she was in the house at the time of the murder, but in a different room. If this statement is true, then that would explain things. It would still make her an accessory though.

I think that was a result of her getting her brain fried by an agressive investigator making her imagine she was there. She was probably still a little traumatized by the murder and it caused her to think it possible her hash-fogged memories of the night might be incomplete.

The theory they developed eventually had her grabbing poor Meredith by the neck and stabbing her with the knife at least once. This sort of horseplay with a struggling girl pumping blood everywhere tends to leave traces, which are conspicuous in their absence. An inability to explain this undermines the entire theory.

I note the explanations regarding the total lack of one iota of evidence that places Rudy at the scene of the "break-in", namely that the police didn't test the room thoroughly enough or that Rudy wore protective clothing. Was such clothing ever found?

I highly doubt Rudy wore more than the clothes on his back, however I wouldn't expect investigators to spend much time at that scene, being as there wasn't a death struggle there, and as I recall from the very beginning they made the dubious assumption it had to be staged as it didn't fit with their theory.

I remain unconvinced by such arguments. At the same time, I am in awe of Kaosium's climbing ability, although unconvinced that Rudy is in the same league.

If it is the same task as I've seen in the picture of the lawyer-looking dude who easily gets one hand on the sill, it's not much to be in awe of. Just about any athletic male who can get one hand on something firm and flat can swing to get the other hand on and then pull themselves up. Rudy was a burgler who'd been busted after climbing into another second-story building within the previous month. The only thing plausible about the report's insistence was that they didn't see any signs on the wall, which I wouldn't think would happen in most cases anyway.
 
Kaosium: "She was probably still a little traumatized by the murder and it caused her to think it possible her hash-fogged memories of the night might be incomplete."

This is not at all convincing. You may want to view it this way, but the jury didn't.

"they made the dubious assumption it had to be staged"

Not dubious at all, quite plausible and in line with the evidence.

"....the picture of the lawyer-looking dude who easily gets one hand on the sill, it's not much to be in awe of. Just about any athletic male who can get one hand on something firm and flat can swing to get the other hand on and then pull themselves up."

Not in this case. Most people viewing this picture remain in total disbelief that this is possible.

Once again, in order to believe in Ms. Knox's innocence, we have to believe in the most far-fetched scenarios, believe that the police were lying, that everyone connected with the prosecution was corrupt, that her lawyers were incompetent, that she was telling the truth only in those comments that fitted in with a truly unbelievable construction of events.

Nah!! Don't buy it.
 
Welcome Kaosium, nice posts and thought the stories about the movies were pretty funny. Also appreciate your kind words. Dear Lord, I'm so grateful I'm still loved.
 
Michiavelli,
Thanks for your research, I had seen most of those but having it all together is nice. I wonder why Stefanoni decided to use the TMB test at all? As far as that list of 250 substances, that doesn't begin to cover all the possibilities and I have seen other items listed that cause a positive reaction that are not on that list. I recall seeing that and thinking of several items I keep in the house or in the fridge that were not on that list or others that I have seen. I get the sense that the scientists don't always know why something causes a reaction.

The question I asked the other day is that if it is normal to find luminol reactions at non crime scenes. Did you see that question addressed in your research?
 
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"....the picture of the lawyer-looking dude who easily gets one hand on the sill, it's not much to be in awe of. Just about any athletic male who can get one hand on something firm and flat can swing to get the other hand on and then pull themselves up."

Not in this case. Most people viewing this picture remain in total disbelief that this is possible.

Really? Did you conduct a poll or something? Can we see the results, please?
 
I need some sleep, so this will have to be short. Meredith's stomach contents and her cell phone records, both argue for a TOD between 9 and 10, probably close to 9.

You think the phone records "argue" for a time of death "probably" close to 9. So your scientific evidence for your 100% certainity consists in this element?

By hte way I think the phone records don't argue at all for a time of death close to 9, and I will talk about it. For making a statement about 100% confidence, I really don't believe you really think you are saying something scientific.
 
Michiavelli,
Thanks for your research, I had seen most of those but having it all together is nice. I wonder why Stefanoni decided to use the TMB test at all? As far as that list of 250 substances, that doesn't begin to cover all the possibilities and I have seen other items listed that cause a positive reaction that are not on that list. I recall seeing that and thinking of several items I keep in the house or in the fridge that were not on that list or others that I have seen.

The point of this research is possibility, inconclusive value of TMB test, and non contradiction with the (more important) evidence that you consider "bad arguments".
The literature points out - as highlighted by halides1 too - that there is a chemichal criterion to search for positive substance.
What you do here is, after reviewing literature, to cast in aside and propose instead as a basis the principle that "you sense chemists don't know what causes a reatcion". Which means a change of paradigm and method and decide to not consider scientific literature at all, but focus only on the.
Now if you want to construct an argument based entirely on this hypothesys, i think you you have to: 1. show what can produce positive reaction, just practically independently from chemical studies; 2. base practical experiments not on what is contained in your fridge, but on what was contained in their fridge and their house.
 
Kevin Lowe: "None of the clothes Rudy was wearing when he murdered Meredith were ever found"

So there is no evidence that he wore protective clothing. I very much doubt that a "drifter" as he has been described, would possess protective clothing. Was he wearing such garb at the other incidents that are often quoted?

Why is it necessary that Guede had to have been wearing "protective clothing"? If he climbed into Filomena's room wearing regular clothes such as jeans, a canvas jacket and leather gloves, he would have left no fingerprint or DNA evidence in Filomena's room, and most likely would have left no fibre evidence either.

If he confronted Meredith, backed her into her room, then attacked and raped her, he would undoubtedly have got some of her blood onto his hands, arms and clothing, but he needn't have transferred any evidence of his presence to her until and unless he removed his gloves. It would appear that this is what he did, because he left his fingerprints in Meredith's room, and left DNA on her clothing and inside her body (although the DNA inside her body may have come from his penis rather than his hand). Guede's cloths and shoes from the night of the crime were never recovered, and the fact that his new Nike AirForce1 shoes which he wore during the murder (whose box was found in his apartment) have never been recovered is a pointer to the idea that Guede disposed of his clothes and shoes after the crime.

In contrast, if Knox and Sollecito were also in the murder room at the time of the stabbings, they would have got blood on their clothing and footwear. Yet none of their clothing or footwear was ever shown to have been either disposed of or cleaned following the murder. And, apart from the contentious bra clasp DNA, neither of them left any forensic trace of themselves in Meredith's room. Maybe they were naked yet wearing gloves during the murder.......
 
Kaosium: "She was probably still a little traumatized by the murder and it caused her to think it possible her hash-fogged memories of the night might be incomplete."

This is not at all convincing. You may want to view it this way, but the jury didn't.

Then what does it mean? The prosecution itself had to discard the statement when they found out about the ironclad alibi of the bar owner they were suspicious of. Even if it was in fact true and she mistook Rudy for Patrick Lumumba it hardly means she was involved in the murder. Cowering in another room and covering her ears suggests she was a terrified victim of a break in, not an accomplice. I could accept this possibility, and that a sort of amnesia caused by trauma occurred, memories that she started to recover under questioning by the police. It is rare, but it does happen, and at least it fits with the known physical evidence better than her being in that room and knifing Meredith without leaving any trace.

If that were the case, that she woke up at Raffaeles' and wandered back to her place to get something and just happened to be there when Rudy was killing Meredith, and she covered her ears and hid, is she really guilty of anything other than being a terrified girl hiding from an intruder? Does she need to go to prison for that?

"they made the dubious assumption it had to be staged"

Not dubious at all, quite plausible and in line with the evidence.

The "dubious" part was the assumption that it had to be staged. More evidence should have been collected, more pictures taken, and more reasoning should have gone into it to prove something as counter-intuitive. After all, the door was left open, there was little reason to 'stage' a break-in. There's precious little evidence anyway, and one vital piece strikes many as absurd.

Not in this case. Most people viewing this picture remain in total disbelief that this is possible.

Unfortunately to me that just speaks to the credulity of the people you surveyed. They've never seen someone do a pull-up?

Once again, in order to believe in Ms. Knox's innocence, we have to believe in the most far-fetched scenarios, believe that the police were lying, that everyone connected with the prosecution was corrupt, that her lawyers were incompetent, that she was telling the truth only in those comments that fitted in with a truly unbelievable construction of events.

Nah!! Don't buy it.

Damn! That strawman is on fire! Someone get a hose! :D

That's not my theory at any rate, and as I recall Amanda herself thought her lawyers did a fine job. At least she was quoted as saying that, maybe she was just being polite. I have read many who when reading the actions of the police and prosecutors came to believe they were all corrupt, but I am not one of them. I think instead they gathered evidence to prove their theory and thus their actions should be looked upon with that in mind. Kinda like if they proceeded like Hercule Poirot who always made fun of the detectives on their knees searching for clues, and who instead solved his crimes by divining the 'psychology' of the killer. The problem was they came up with a truly unbelievable sequence of events, as opposed to the obvious answer they could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt of a break-in by a petty crook becoming an unintended murder.

I don't think they proved their theory, even though they pushed the edge of the envelope in the attempt. However the smear campaign worked and the jurors, having heard tabloid trash depictions of Amanda added to 'we have DNA evidence too!' convicted even though on closer examination the holes in the prosecution's logic and the poor quality of the DNA evidence become apparent. There's probably a reason a third of these cases in Italy get overturned on appeal. The prosecution has shot its wad, there's no more cards to play, and with time the absurdities of their theory and the lack of evidence of Amanda and Raffaele's involvement become more and more obvious. For example, you and the people who think climbing into that window is impossible will wane in number as it is shown how easily it can be done by some, and no one who already knows this will change their mind. DNA science improves, not regresses, and trying that stunt with the LCN sample will probably become a cautionary tale in the field.

The funny thing is, the Italian police got the real killer, and in fairly short order, even after he fled the country. They are obviously not completely incompetent. What makes this case notable is the prosecutor decided on a bizarre conspiracy instead of the obvious answer, which is why this has become an international issue.
 
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the infinite improbability drive is humming

Once again, in order to believe in Ms. Knox's innocence, we have to believe in the most far-fetched scenarios, believe that the police were lying, that everyone connected with the prosecution was corrupt, that her lawyers were incompetent, that she was telling the truth only in those comments that fitted in with a truly unbelievable construction of events.

Nah!! Don't buy it.

colonelhall,

I highlighted your last comment because I was not sure what you meant.

Some of us have offered an opinion to the effect that their lawyers were not perfect, but I am unaware of anyone here who called them incompetent. Charlie has documented many cases where the police kept trying to pin the blame on someone who was manifestly innocent; I have added a few examples of my own, and no one has challenged the information we provided. It is not my contention that ILE has behaved worse than the examples we have given. Police misconduct (whether illegal or merely unethical) is sadly not a truly unbelievable event.

It is the prosecution's case that is unbelievable. The notion that Raffaele and Amanda could restrain and strangle Meredith (the timeline Fulcanelli posted indicated that the attack lasted at least 20 minutes) without leaving traces of themselves on her body is far-fetched. The knife that was implied to have been cleaned with bleach that still yielded DNA? Douglas Adam's infinite improbability drive would be stoked for two years by such an event.
 
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I too was taken aback when I read that E-mail. It did not speak well of her at all, and I couldn't help but wonder how an 'honor student' could have produced such a piece. It looked to me like she'd typed it from a cell phone whilst getting progressively trashed.

However if I am correct she produced that right after she'd been interrogated at length, and if that is so it suggests to me she was trying to get her story straight. Not in an incriminating way, but having endured endless hours of being lied to, accused and threatened about a night where she admittedly was stoned on hash I don't think at that specific moment she was really sure of anything that had happened the night of the murder, and that e-mail was an opportunity to try to piece together what she remembered and to include events the police had told her they had 'evidence' of her doing that she didn't remember. I suspect that's where the mop came in. They probably told her some nonsense about having evidence of her cleaning up the murder scene, and she tried to think about something she might have been doing with a mop that wasn't incriminating.

It's intimidating when people in authority insist you are guilty of something you didn't do and have 'evidence' to prove it. It is a common interrogation technique and yields results in the truly guilty, but any sort of pressure that might convince a criminal to confess might also produce attempts by the innocent to 'explain' the 'incriminating evidence' the subject is being told. I suspect that's what happened with Raffaele and his 'pricking' Meredith with the knife.

At any rate, hello Rose. :)

Having read the majority of this thread and the debate elsewhere it's almost like I think I know you. I couldn't help but note you seemed like one of the nicer people in this contentious debate, and I like your avatar. I loved that movie!


Ah, another temporal anomaly.

The email was sent a couple of days before the 'infamous' 43 ? hour interrogation where the police accused her of various 'things'.
Either your sources or understanding are at fault on this - perhaps its too early for certainty unless you have your mind made up already.
 
The issue of why and how PL was accused ( false confessions ?) on the night of the 5th has come up yet again and it seems to go round and round.

Was AK not later questioned by a magistrate about this in the presence of her lawyer in Nov/Dec 07' ?

What was the outcome ?? - it would surely cut to the heart of the matter !!
 
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Matthew Best: "Really? Did you conduct a poll or something? Can we see the results, please?"

I believe that this is the almost unanimous view of those who post on the PMF site. I find them a very plausible bunch and choose to go along with their views.

And the source for your belief that Rudy could simply do a "pull-up" to gain access?

The fact of the matter is, that the defence were unable to prove that the "break-in" was not staged.

Halides1: "It is the prosecution's case that is unbelievable."

Not to the jury!
 
luminol and hemastix


Machiavelli,

Thank you for your hard work in putting together this information. Here is some information from one of the Creamer papers.

J. L. Webb, J. I. Creamer and T. I. Quickenden
Luminescence 2006; 21: 214–220.

This paper gives the maximum detectable dilutions for a commercial preparation of TMB in the form of Hemastix as 1:100,000 for a dried 50-microliter bloodstain and 1:1,000,000 for a solution. The dilutions refer to a hemoglobin concentration of 150 g/L, which is the physiological concentration. In other words, the 10,000 fold dilution figure in the Johnson/Hampikian letter is a conservative estimate. They used the words “at least 1:10,000.” TMB is a very sensitive test, but it is not quite as sensitive as luminol, which is said to have a 1: 5,000,000 detection limit.

What I find curious is that some here have said that the luminol test might detect blood which is so dilute that it falls below the DNA detection limit. Is this supposition, or is there literature that can back it up?
 
MATTHEW BEST :"If this is a joke, it's not very funny; but if you're serious, it's hilarious!"

Sorry Matthew, I don't get what you are trying to say.

And the results of your poll?
 
Matthew Best: "Really? Did you conduct a poll or something? Can we see the results, please?"

I believe that this is the almost unanimous view of those who post on the PMF site. I find them a very plausible bunch and choose to go along with their views.

indeed :D

And the source for your belief that Rudy could simply do a "pull-up" to gain access?
I just did a pull-up too! it's doable!

The fact of the matter is, that the defence were unable to prove that the "break-in" was not staged.
Can't even count how many times I've seen this already. The defense couldn't prove they're innocent!

Halides1: "It is the prosecution's case that is unbelievable."
Not to the jury!
And that roundabout of circular reasoning and an appeal to (questionable) authority.
 
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Ah, another temporal anomaly.

The email was sent a couple of days before the 'infamous' 43 ? hour interrogation where the police accused her of various 'things'.
Either your sources or understanding are at fault on this - perhaps its too early for certainty unless you have your mind made up already.

Thanks for the correction, and I mean that. I have ingested this entire discussion in short period with a interruption of a few months. I am certain I don't have the entire time-line down perfectly and it's helpful to be advised when I get something wrong, which is inevitable.

Do you know of a site with a good time-line of the entire ordeal? Just the facts?
 
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