Hello from a non-skeptic

[Resume]

Please point me to these documents. I am unaware of any psychic who has ever provided assistance to any police agency in any investigation of anything.

I think that sometimes the agency investigated whether or not the "psychic" was the perp.

 

[Agatha]

I too would like to see such documented claims (and some of my observations responded to), but I am happy to stick to the Poole case for now.

 

[Garrette]

Ah, so we are doubting all and any sources. Agreed, the reference I gave was an article in a sensacionalist paper. I certainly would not have used the same terminology used in the article I posted a link to, but you are saying that her case and that of others we see on TV are all faked inventions. Hmmmm.

Charles, I am saying that the Poole case does not support psi. If you believe it does then please present your evidence.

There are really only three relevant questions, the second of which is waiting your answer:

1. Was the case solved because of the medium?

2. Did the medium tell the police anything they did not already know?

3. Did the medium tell the police anything she could not have discovered through mundane means?

 

[Charles Boden]

So this statement made by the police officer is untrue:

One of the detectives present that night, Tony Batters, admits he was astonished. He had been the first cop on the murder scene at Jackie's flat and realised Christine's information was spot-on.

"She decribed everything much as I found it," said Tony, now retired. "She knew the victim's position, some of her injuries and clothing.

"She even knew that in the course of robbing Jackie, the killer had left two of her rings — they would not come off.

"In fact some of Christine's information was unknown to anyone at the time — except the murderer and the victim! When we asked for information about the killer Christine described him in great detail, his age and month of birth, height, skin and hair colouring, tattoos, the type of work he did and mentioned his criminal history.

"She said the victim knew the killer and warned that friends would provide him with an alibi — all now proved right.

"And when her hand wrote the name Pokie it was absolutely spine-chilling. We'd already interviewed Ruark but at that moment I knew we'd got our man."

 

[Charles Boden]

I think that sometimes the agency investigated whether or not the "psychic" was the perp.

I'm sure they must have...

 

[Garrette]

Charles, I began to write up a response to your question, but I won't play your game. I will answer your question in full when you answer mine or admit you can't:

Name one thing that Holohan told the police that they did not already know.

 

[Nonpareil]

So this statement made by the police officer is untrue:

Most likely, yes.

Do you remember what we were saying earlier in the thread about memory? It applies here. Unless we have a transcript of exactly what the psychic said and a report of the actual facts about the case, we can't accept that as evidence. A policeman's memory is no more reliable than anyone else's, especially in a case like this.

 

[Charles Boden]

I think what you are saying is that anything and everything that might be presented to you as evidence is either a lie or a set up.

Garrette, you know the answer to your question, so why ask? Who is playing games with who here?

 

[Agatha]

So this statement made by the police officer is untrue:

One of the detectives present that night, Tony Batters, admits he was astonished. He had been the first cop on the murder scene at Jackie's flat and realised Christine's information was spot-on.

Tony Batters was a PC, not a detective

"She decribed everything much as I found it," said Tony, now retired. "She knew the victim's position, some of her injuries and clothing.

Ms Poole's boyfriend's father was present when PC Batters forced entry to the property - Ms Poole's position and clothing was already known outside the police and by the Thursday, would have been the talk of the local area.

"She even knew that in the course of robbing Jackie, the killer had left two of her rings — they would not come off.

That's not quite what Holohan said, is it? Garrette probably will know more than me on this one.

"In fact some of Christine's information was unknown to anyone at the time — except the murderer and the victim! When we asked for information about the killer Christine described him in great detail, his age and month of birth, height, skin and hair colouring, tattoos, the type of work he did and mentioned his criminal history.

Ruark was already known to be the prime suspect by the time Ms Holohan spoke to police, and both he and Ms Poole were regulars in Ms Holohan's local pub.

"She said the victim knew the killer and warned that friends would provide him with an alibi — all now proved right.

My recollection is that Ruark's alibi was a train journey, not friends

"And when her hand wrote the name Pokie it was absolutely spine-chilling. We'd already interviewed Ruark but at that moment I knew we'd got our man."

As above - it was already local knowledge that Ruark was seeing Ms Poole and that he'd ben arrested in connection with the murder.

 

[Garrette]

I think what you are saying is that anything and everything that might be presented to you as evidence is either a lie or a set up.

I have neither said nor implied any such thing.

Garrette, you know the answer to your question,

Yes, I do.

so why ask?

1. To determine the extent of research you had done, which you implied was sufficient to allow you to reach the conclusion you have reached.

2. To determine if you could admit that Holohan did no such thing.

Who is playing games with who here?

Quite expectedly, it is you playing games with yourself.

I take it we are agreed:

1. Holohan did not solve the the Poole case.

2. Holohan did not tell the police anything they did not already know.

3. Holohan did not tell the police anything she could not have known through mundane means.

And you tout this as being strong evidence of psi and/or the paranormal.

 

[Nonpareil]

I think what you are saying is that anything and everything that might be presented to you as evidence

This is a misinterpretation. In fact, we have told you exactly what would be accepted as evidence: a) something that the psychic told the police that they did not already know or b) a transcript of the psychic's exact claims paired with a list of the corroborating facts about the case.

is either a lie

No one has said this. I have said that it is likely that the policeman in question is wrong, but there is a difference between being wrong and being a liar.

or a set up.

No idea where you got that one.

Garrette, you know the answer to your question, so why ask?

Because you apparently support the validity of the psychic's claim. Garrette is trying to illustrate to you why you shouldn't. If you don't think that the psychic told the police anything new, why support her? If you think she did, why don't you prove Garrette wrong?

 

[Agatha]

I think what you are saying is that anything and everything that might be presented to you as evidence is either a lie or a set up.

No, absolutely not. We talked earlier in the thread about the law of large numbers, about confirmation bias, about the unreliability of human memory, about the way our brains are hardwired to see patterns even where none exist. I'm not suggesting the only choices are lies or deliberate deception - people can be absolutely, completely convinced of something but they can still be wrong.

 

[Charles Boden]

1. To determine the extent of research you had done, which you implied was sufficient to allow you to reach the conclusion you have reached.

Could you point out where I said this?

1. Holohan did not solve the the Poole case.

Again, could you point out where I said this? I quoted the article. If it is totally erroneous, I stand corrected...

 

[Garrette]

Garrette probably will know more than me on this one.

Correct. From Batters' notes, what Holohan said was "Was there another ring apart from these 2?" That's it.

Ruark was already known to be the prime suspect by the time Ms Holohan spoke to police, and both he and Ms Poole were regulars in Ms Holohan's local pub.

And Holohan lived 1.3 miles from the same pub.

My recollection is that Ruark's alibi was a train journey, not friends

Correct.

 

[Charles Boden]

I'm not suggesting the only choices are lies or deliberate deception - people can be absolutely, completely convinced of something but they can still be wrong.

Agree entirely...

 

[aggle-rithm]

No, I nowadays believe that all things hold a form of consciousness, including insects and plants, that survives material/physical death.

Wow, the afterlife must be crawling with beetles.

 

[Garrette]

Could you point out where I said that?

You didn't, which is why I said "implied." If you were not implying it then the alternative is that you reached a positive conclusion about the Poole case without researching it sufficiently.

Again, could you point out where I said this?

Again, by implication. If you never meant to imply that Holohan did anything to solve the Poole case, why did you put it forth as evidence of psi/paranormality? If you didn't put it forth as evidence of psi/paranormality, why did you reference it at all?

I quoted the article. If it is totally erroneous, I stand corrected...

Excellent. Despite how my tone may seem (I rarely use smilies), I am not attempting to denigrate or insult you. You do not seem unintelligent nor particularly gullible. And while I have an ego, I'm not in this for purposes of chalking up a victory. I've been a believer, too.

 

[Pixel42]

http://www.klaaskids.org/pg-mc-hazards.htm

A few months after Polly was recovered a psychic claimed that she solved Polly’s case on the television program Hard Copy. Not only was she using my daughter’s death to promote herself, but she also dismissed all of the wonderful people: police, media, and volunteers who worked so hard and tirelessly to locate my child.

In truth, that psychic detectives contribution to the case was counter productive. As always seems to be the case with psychic predictions, her interference created distraction. Law enforcement resources are diverted toward useless endeavors as phantom leads disappear into thin air. One cold and dark November evening many of us were lurking around somebody’s property because the psychic said that it held the key to my daughter’s disappearance. With the heightened sense of paranoia that already existed in the community that property owner would have been well within his rights to blow us away on the spot for trespassing. We were very fortunate that night, because although he did angrily confront us, he had absolutely nothing to do with the crime we were investigating.

In the end, and despite their protests, there is not even one case of a psychic truly assisting or solving a missing child case. It’s just smoke and mirrors. Their references do not support their claims and law enforcement cannot acknowledge their existence. Instead, their wishful thinking collides with your desperate hope and leaves you diminished.

 

[Agatha]

Agree entirely...

Which is why as sceptics we take nothing on faith, we check things.

Lets look at some claims made in this thread.

Minstrels sang Charlie is My Darling - unlikely since minstrels were popular in mediaeval times but had almost wholly disappeared by the 18th century, and Charlie is My Darling was written about Bonnie Prince Charlie (1720-1788).

A medium was correct when she predicted on a Saturday that a member of a Royal family would die within a week - incorrect, as Diana Princess of Wales died eight days after that. Close, but not accurate.

Ms Holohan solved the Poole/Hunt murder - incorrect, as she told the police nothing that they did not already know, and which was already common local knowledge.

Someone told you to "Get a life" in this thread - nope, I have checked.

There have been some uncheckable claims made, but there are, in every case you've brought forward, mundane explanations for the experiences.

 

[Olowkow]

I used to enjoy the TV shows about psychics solving murders for the cops also, until I did some digging and found out that the writers and producers just lie to make a buck. That was when I became a member of JREF. Before that, I assumed that maybe something I didn't understand was going on, and always just kind of put it in "the back of my mind".

No psychic detective has ever been praised or given official recognition by the F.B.I. or US national news for solving a crime, preventing a crime, or finding a kidnap victim or corpse.