Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Justinian2]

I go a step further than Chris. I think it is more or less what it appears to be, no DNA on the blade at all.

I'm contacting the DOJ Monday to see what the statistics are on falsification of evidence by the police. In Oklahoma and LA the numbers were huge. The officers usually get off with a slap on the wrist because it is so hard to prove especially when the people investigating are also the police. The police consider other police their fraternal brothers. They almost have the camaraderie of a terrorist cell. But with 20 million arrests in the USA alone each year, falsification of reports and evidence could be the second biggest crime in the USA - right behind the falsification of tax returns.

The double DNA knife is, to me, obviously a case of falsification of evidence. I can't even imagine why it isn't so obvious to others. But to that end, I'm doing more research.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

laboratory records would be nice

Absence of evidence is evidence of evidence.

Except for when it isn't.

As long as you have unshakable faith that Knox must be innocent it is easy to determine when which is which. Otherwise it's more complicated. Stick around for a while and you'll get the hang of it. There's plenty of folks here to help you.

Quadraginta,

A long time ago I gave a citation which indicated that good labs keep contamination logs. There is no evidence that Stefanoni's lab did; therefore, her claim of no contamination in seven years is unverified, and probably unverifiable. I have also documented that testimony from laboratory personnel can sometimes be shown to false by the laboratory's own records. I do not think that the technicians were necessarily lying, but human memory is imperfect.

Some labs have been shown to fake their control experiments, and this was shown to be true by use of the electronic data files in one instance. This is one more reason to ask for their release. Almost three years into the case is long enough.

 

[quadraginta]

Check comment 7228 by Mary_H.

This post #7228?

Nothing much there but conjecture and rationalization.

I did find the part she chose to single out in bold from the quote she cited in that post to be interesting in view of recent conversation. Thanks for pointing it out.

... Amanda could take it and and carry it from my house to her house because the girls didn't have knife...

Mary_H might want to powwow with Withnail1969, since there seems to be some discrepancy about the knife supply at the girls' place. Just a little while ago we were given this assurance.

And in this case the cheap knife, seeing as it was Raffaele's only kitchen knife, being used every day, would therefore become blunt very quickly, seeing as it was such a cheap knife. On the other hand, with 20 different knives to choose from, Amanda Knox's flat would have plenty of potential murder weapons.
<snip>

Somebody's chasing the wrong rabbit.

 

[LondonJohn]

Stefanoni did perform the blood test and it did prove negative; but she averred that there was not enough material to test it successfully.
Massei said that the absence of sufficient material did not constitute proof that it was not blood.

Please try checking your facts thoroughly before making half truths and flying from there to the innocence stance.

Let's try to make this easy:

Human blood consists of many different components, the most relevant of which for our purposes are red blood cells (erythrocytes) and white blood cells. Erythrocytes are central to the presumptive TMB test for the presence of blood, but contain no DNA. White blood cells do contain DNA, but are not used in the presumptive tests for blood.

Now, here's the important part: In typical human blood, the ratio of red cells to white cells is around 800:1. In other words, for every white blood cell present in a drop of blood, there are around 800 red blood cells present.

So if the DNA allegedly present on the knife blade came from Meredith's blood, it had to have come from a white blood cell. So even if only one white blood cell was present on the knife (and this is unlikely, even for PCR-level testing), there would have had to have been around 800 red cells present. And since TMB testing can give a positive result with as few as 10 red cells, then clearly the TMB test should have given a positive if the DNA came from a white cell.

The only way in which the white blood cells could have been present on the blade without numerous red blood cells also being present is if the knife had somehow been cleaned with a product which removed all the red blood cells but left the white blood cells. To suggest that this is improbable is an insult to the concept of improbability.

 

[RoseMontague]

This post #7228?

Nothing much there but conjecture and rationalization.

I did find the part she chose to single out in bold from the quote she cited in that post to be interesting in view of recent conversation. Thanks for pointing it out.


Mary_H might want to powwow with Withnail1969, since there seems to be some discrepancy about the knife supply at the girls' place. Just a little while ago we were given this assurance.



Somebody's chasing the wrong rabbit.

I don't know Quad, the speculation from Raffaele is pure fantasy but it appears doubtful he knew about Amanda's knife set. Does make it pretty obvious that she had no need of Raffaele's kitchen knife as she had so many nice ones available.

 

[quadraginta]

Quadraginta,

A long time ago I gave a citation which indicated that good labs keep contamination logs. There is no evidence that Stefanoni's lab did; therefore, her claim of no contamination in seven years is unverified, and probably unverifiable.

Yes. That's what I just said. Absence of evidence is evidence of evidence.

Isn't it nice when we all agree like this?

I have also documented that testimony from laboratory personnel can sometimes be shown to false by the laboratory's own records. I do not think that the technicians were necessarily lying, but human memory is imperfect.

Some labs have been shown to fake their control experiments, and this was shown to be true by use of the electronic data files in one instance.

<snip>

You don't have to repeat yourself. You've already convinced me that DNA evidence is completely useless for any sort of forensic purpose in any court anywhere under any circumstances.

If someone sat in a witness stand and told me that my DNA proved that I was me I'd call them stone cold liars to their face.

I have you to be grateful to for that insight. Thanks.

 

[quadraginta]

I don't know Quad, the speculation from Raffaele is pure fantasy but it appears doubtful he knew about Amanda's knife set. Does make it pretty obvious that she had no need of Raffaele's kitchen knife as she had so many nice ones available.

I wonder why Knox hid them from him while he was doing all that cooking for her at her place?

 

[katy_did]

Mary_H might want to powwow with Withnail1969, since there seems to be some discrepancy about the knife supply at the girls' place. Just a little while ago we were given this assurance

I think Raffaele says they didn't have a knife like that one, not that they didn't have knives at the girls' place at all ("un coltello così"). There didn't seem to be that sort of knife in the picture of the knives in the cottage, though I guess there might've been a similar one in the set Amanda had. Not that it matters whether there was or wasn't I suppose, since he's quoting Tiziano who wouldn't have known anyway.

 

[RoseMontague]

I wonder why Knox hid them from him while he was doing all that cooking for her at her place?

It's rather like that electric knife sharpener I once got as a Christmas gift. Discussion of it earlier prompted me to look for it (never used). Must have sold it at a yard sale.

 

[Mary_H]

If one's genetic profile is found on the blade of a knife on which the handle carries the genetic profile of the convicted murderer then we ASSUME the matter on the blade would be blood.

Amanda wasn't a convicted murderer when the knife was found. The prosecution used what they claimed to have found on the knife to convict her. If they couldn't find blood on the knife, then the knife was probably not the murder weapon.

We don't use the outcome of a trial to explain the evidence. And the entire purpose of forensics is to guard against assumptions.

 

[treehorn]

I'm contacting the DOJ Monday to see what the statistics are on falsification of evidence by the police. In Oklahoma and LA the numbers were huge. The officers usually get off with a slap on the wrist because it is so hard to prove especially when the people investigating are also the police. The police consider other police their fraternal brothers. They almost have the camaraderie of a terrorist cell. But with 20 million arrests in the USA alone each year, falsification of reports and evidence could be the second biggest crime in the USA - right behind the falsification of tax returns.

The double DNA knife is, to me, obviously a case of falsification of evidence. I can't even imagine why it isn't so obvious to others. But to that end, I'm doing more research.

"obvious" on what basis?

what evidence did the defense lead in this regard ("falsified" evidence)?

as for your suspicions about 'the police fraternity', have you no faith in the system's checks and balances, which include, inter alia:

o the right to remain silent/ the right against self-incrimination (which effectively forces the state to make its case without your assistance)

o the right to counsel

o the right to be presumed innocent (in a court of law)

o the right to know the case to be met

o the right to make full answer and defense

o the right to a fair trial before an INDEPENDENT and impartial tribunal

o the reasonable doubt standard (which sets the bar surprisingly near the impossible-to-reach level of absolute certainty)

o the power of the defense to subpoena witnesses (including police), put them on the stand, cross them and force them to testify on pain of penalty of perjury

OR are you proposing that, owing to the 'terrorist cell'-like nature of the 'police fraternity', no conviction is safe where it has been secured on the basis of evidence collected by/ processed by police officers?

shall we unlock the prison gates today?

(can you at least put it off until Monday? i need to go buy a whole lot of canned food, shot guns, and ammo in advance of the collapse of the rule of law and civil society)

 

[treehorn]

So if the DNA allegedly present on the knife blade came from Meredith's blood, it had to have come from a white blood cell.

why could the DNA not have come from the cells comprising any other tissue or organ that was compromised during the attack?

on what basis, Doctor, are you going to counter that possibility?

 

[treehorn]

The only way in which the white blood cells could have been present on the blade without numerous red blood cells also being present is if the knife had somehow been cleaned with a product which removed all the red blood cells but left the white blood cells. To suggest that this is improbable is an insult to the concept of improbability.

Doctor, where is your evidence that red blood cells and white blood cells are removed by cleaning/ scrubbing with EQUAL ease?

can you cite a peer-reviewed journal or an authoritative text in support of this proposition?

 

[Mary_H]

I think Raffaele says they didn't have a knife like that one, not that they didn't have knives at the girls' place at all ("un coltello così"). There didn't seem to be that sort of knife in the picture of the knives in the cottage, though I guess there might've been a similar one in the set Amanda had. Not that it matters whether there was or wasn't I suppose, since he's quoting Tiziano who wouldn't have known anyway.

It's apparent Tiziano was formulating logical arguments against the knife.

By the way, Mark Waterbury thinks the police knew that Rudy was the killer, and that is why they went looking for a large kitchen knife instead of one of the knives from Raffaele's collection (which would make more sense). Remember, Rudy was caught with a large kitchen knife at one of his previous break-ins.

Dot # 4 Rudy was an informant, probably for the Perugian authorities. While he was protected as an informant, he committed burglaries and was caught with stolen property and a 10” kitchen knife. Every time he was caught, someone from PPB set him free. When he was merely spotted, someone gave the word and he was not investigated.
.................
Dot # 11 The Polizia grabbed a single item from Raffaele’s kitchen drawer, a big kitchen knife, for no apparent reason. They labeled it “the knife” and claimed that it was the murder weapon.

http://www.sciencespheres.com/

 

[RoseMontague]

"obvious" on what basis?

what evidence did the defense lead in this regard ("falsified" evidence)?

as for your suspicions about 'the police fraternity', have you no faith in the system's checks and balances, which include, inter alia:

o the right to remain silent/ the right against self-incrimination (which effectively forces the state to make its case without your assistance)

o the right to counsel

o the right to be presumed innocent (in a court of law)

o the right to know the case to be met

o the right to make full answer and defense

o the right to a fair trial before an INDEPENDENT and impartial tribunal

o the reasonable doubt standard (which sets the bar surprisingly near the impossible-to-reach level of absolute certainty)

o the power of the defense to subpoena witnesses (including police), put them on the stand, cross them and force them to testify on pain of penalty of perjury

OR are you proposing that, owing to the 'terrorist cell'-like nature of the 'police fraternity', no conviction is safe where it has been secured on the basis of evidence collected by/ processed by police officers?

shall we unlock the prison gates today?

(can you at least put it off until Monday? i need to go buy a whole lot of canned food, shot guns, and ammo in advance of the collapse of the rule of law and civil society)

There has been a major scandal in North Carolina regarding the SBI crime lab. Of course, this is not Italy.

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_...ntinue-in-court-system?instance=homethirdleft

 

[Mary_H]

why could the DNA not have come from the cells comprising any other tissue or organ that was compromised during the attack?

on what basis, Doctor, are you going to counter that possibility?

It could have. But loverofzion claimed it was blood.

 

[Alt+F4]

I'm contacting the DOJ Monday to see what the statistics are on falsification of evidence by the police.

Good for you. What does it have to do with a case tried in Italy?

 

[treehorn]

1.) That's an appeal to authority - a fallacy.
2.) Other experts have commented on the DNA such as:

Elizabeth A. Johnson, Ph.D.
Forensic Biology/DNA expert
Thousand Oaks, California
circej@earthlink.net
805-553-04xx

Greg Hampikian, Ph.D.
Professor and Director of the Idaho Innocence Project
Department of Biology
Boise State University
greghampikian@boisestate.edu
208-781-04xx

your first point indicates that you frown on 'appeals to authority'

your second point IS an 'appeal to authority'

what, exactly, is your stance here???

 

[LondonJohn]

Doctor, where is your evidence that red blood cells and white blood cells are removed by cleaning/ scrubbing with EQUAL ease?

can you cite a peer-reviewed journal or an authoritative text in support of this proposition?

Here's an SEM photo of human blood:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SEM_blood_cells.jpg

It shows that white blood cells are very similar in size and shape to red blood cells, although they have a slightly roughened surface. I don't believe that you will find any source which claims that white cells are harder to remove by scrubbing than red cells. In addition, if bleach were the cleaning medium (as suggested by the prosecution), it would denature the proteins in both red and white cells, and cause the internal destruction of the cells.

As I have stated before, I am not a doctor (of medicine or any other discipline). However, I do have an education in scientific disciplines, and I consider that I have a scientifically analytical mind. I would, however, appreciate a little less of the sarcasm - until and unless you are able to contradict anything that I've written, perhaps...

 

[treehorn]

There has been a major scandal in North Carolina regarding the SBI crime lab. Of course, this is not Italy.

http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_...ntinue-in-court-system?instance=homethirdleft

oh, i'm not denying that incidents of police corruption and/or incompetence have occurred in jurisdictions the world over

nor am i claiming that corruption and/or incompetence were not involved in the trial in question

i simply do not know!

when i see someone claiming that they do, in fact, 'know' that evidence has been fabricated or tampered with, i am all ears

i want to see what their claim is based upon

as yet, i have not read anything indicating that the defense led ANY evidence of "fabrication"

[feel free to point me in the right direction]

surely you will agree that evidence showing a police officer in case X, in county Y, fabricated evidence used to secure the conviction of Z, is in no way proof that ILE acted in the same fashion in THIS case