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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Here is another reference in the motivations made to the Via dell’Aquila 5- Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 not providing coverage to Raffaele's flat with regards to a message sent by Amanda.

Would text messages use different cells on towers than actual phone calls? So an actual call could be compatible to sector 3, however, a text message compatible to sector 3 would be out of area of the flat? Or is there an error in the Massei document of the actual calls (and the cell they connected to) made by Amanda on the late morning of November 2, 2007?

No, SMS text messages and voice calls are transmitted by he same base station - whichever base station the handset is associated with at the time of the call/text. It's true that text messages can be sent with lower signal strength than voice, since they are an asynchronous communication which can be sent as packet bursts and re-assembled at the handset. But this wouldn't change the fact that the handset would be associated with one (and only one) base station for either texts or voice calls.
 
"Dubious evidence"?
ARe you a forensic scientist?
Do you claim to know more than the experts who tested the evidence?

Where do you get this?

1.) That's an appeal to authority - a fallacy.
2.) Other experts have commented on the DNA such as:

Elizabeth A. Johnson, Ph.D.
Forensic Biology/DNA expert
Thousand Oaks, California
circej@earthlink.net
805-553-04xx

Greg Hampikian, Ph.D.
Professor and Director of the Idaho Innocence Project
Department of Biology
Boise State University
greghampikian@boisestate.edu
208-781-04xx

You can see their report at:
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/files/KnoxSollecitoDNAPetitionSubmitted11.19.09b.pdf

3.) Fascists also believe that the authority of the state is not to be contested.
See Mussolini's doctrine on fascism on the web. The nationalistic concept that the state should be the authority (whether right or wrong) is fascist in nature.

4.) The scientific method and the scientific community created DNA testing. Why not listen to their experts (if you want authority)
 
1.) That's an appeal to authority - a fallacy.
2.) Other experts have commented on the DNA such as:

Elizabeth A. Johnson, Ph.D.
Forensic Biology/DNA expert
Thousand Oaks, California
circej@earthlink.net
805-553-04xx

Greg Hampikian, Ph.D.
Professor and Director of the Idaho Innocence Project
Department of Biology
Boise State University
greghampikian@boisestate.edu
208-781-04xx

You can see their report at:
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/files/KnoxSollecitoDNAPetitionSubmitted11.19.09b.pdf

3.) Fascists also believe that the authority of the state is not to be contested.
See Mussolini's doctrine on fascism on the web. The nationalistic concept that the state should be the authority (whether right or wrong) is fascist in nature.

4.) The scientific method and the scientific community created DNA testing. Why not listen to their experts (if you want authority)
I did listen to their experts.

Must be nice to sail through life disregarding whatever you don't happen to like.
And there is nothing fascistic in honoring the fair judicial conclusions by the Perugia court.
 
Obviously it wasn't so blunt.

It was extremely blunt, given that it was the poorest quality kitchen knife available in Italy.


What does the cost of a knife have to do with its sharpness?

How do you know this?
This "double DNA' knife was proven to hae been used in the assault and murder.

'Proven' by extremely dubious evidence which many of us here do not accept, as you well know. You might also wish to work on your spelling.

I can also tell you that I am absolutely certain that this heavily-used $3 knife was nowhere near as sharp as the expensive German knives Amanda had under her bed or possibly in the knife drawer in the murder house.


A cheap knife can be every bit as sharp as an expensive one, or even sharper. Sharpness ultimately depends on how the knife is maintained. It has nearly nothing to do with cost.

An expensive knife will likely hold an edge longer than a cheap one, once having been properly sharpened, but the relative cost of the knife has little to do with what sort of edge can be achieved.

One of the conundrums of more expensive knives is that they are harder to sharpen, for much the same reason that they hold their edge longer. Not infrequently this leads to an odd contradiction, where you find less expensive blades better maintained than the more expensive ones, just because it is easier and faster.

Some of the sharpest knives I've run across in general kitchen use have been el cheapo Old Hickory knives from the lowest echelons of cutlery, just because a few swipes against a steel can quickly restore their hone to keenness.

As a general rule the best choice for a knife which is used regularly is one which falls somewhere between the two extremes, especially for people who are not adept at or patient about blade sharpening.

I believe loverofzion is asking you how you can be so certain that this particular blade was blunt, since its expense alone is not a useful predictor of its sharpness.

You seem to be saying you have some personal knowledge of how well it was maintained. Basing your certainty on the knife's cost would fall within that class of "extremely dubious evidence" you mention.
 
What does the cost of a knife have to do with its sharpness?

A cheap knife can be every bit as sharp as an expensive one, or even sharper. Sharpness ultimately depends on how the knife is maintained. It has nearly nothing to do with cost.

And in this case the cheap knife, seeing as it was Raffaele's only kitchen knife, being used every day, would therefore become blunt very quickly, seeing as it was such a cheap knife. On the other hand, with 20 different knives to choose from, Amanda Knox's flat would have plenty of potential murder weapons.

Aer you saying that Rafaelle somehow obsessively sharpened this $3 kitchen knife which came with his flat with specialist sharpening stones in the hope of a possible murder? is that seriously what you're saying?
 
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And in this case the cheap knife, seeing as it was Raffaele's only kitchen knife, being used every day, would therefore become blunt very quickly, seeing as it was such a cheap knife. On the other hand, with 20 different knives to choose from, Amanda Knox's flat would have plenty of potential murder weapons.

Aer you saying that Rafaelle somehow obsessively sharpened this $3 kitchen knife which came with his flat with specialist sharpening stones in the hope of a possible murder? is that seriously what you're saying?
He might have sharpened it even without planning on murder.

The point being none of us know its sharpness quality; we do know that it was used in the murder by its double DNA, no matter who you dig up from Idaho or Thousand Oaks to refute the evidence accepted by the court.
 
Clean up in Meredith's room

Page 193 discusses what was revealed by the use of luminol.


"the Luminol tests, stating that "this test was performed during the second search, at the end of all the other activities, on the floor of the following areas: Filomena Romanelli's room, Amanda Knox's room, the corridor, the living room-kitchen corner and the larger bathroom"

It doesn't mention the bedroom on page 193. Do you have a different page number in mind for the clean up in Meredith's bedroom?
 
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He might have sharpened it even without planning on murder.

The point being none of us know its sharpness quality; we do know that it was used in the murder by its double DNA, no matter who you dig up from Idaho or Thousand Oaks to refute the evidence accepted by the court.

Nobody 'knows' that it was used in the murder. It would be very interesting to know if the blade had been sharpened at all. Did Rafaelle even own any kind of sharpening equipment?
 

Lover, Rose is simply responding to your non sequitur response to her with another non sequitur. She asked you where the Massei report shows evidence of a cleanup and you pointed to a page referring to what the luminol revealed. The luminol didn't reveal a clean-up.

But, curiously, Lover, I do have to point out that you've been putting a lot of stock in to two big misconceptions about this case: That the knife had Meredith's blood on it and that Amanda's footprints were made in Meredith's blood. Neither is true. It's misconceptions like these that heavily influence people into believing AK and RS are guilty. Hopefully, this will cause you to reconsider your position, as it seems to be based around a lot of false information.
 
Lover, Rose is simply responding to your non sequitur response to her with another non sequitur. She asked you where the Massei report shows evidence of a cleanup and you pointed to a page referring to what the luminol revealed. The luminol didn't reveal a clean-up.

But, curiously, Lover, I do have to point out that you've been putting a lot of stock in to two big misconceptions about this case: That the knife had Meredith's blood on it and that Amanda's footprints were made in Meredith's blood. Neither is true. It's misconceptions like these that heavily influence people into believing AK and RS are guilty. Hopefully, this will cause you to reconsider your position, as it seems to be based around a lot of false information.
The presence of blood and prints revealed after the use of luminol IS in itself evidence of a cleanup.
The knife was found to have Meredith's GENETIC PROFILE in a groove on the blade; it being on the blade it is a safe assumption that it was her blood.
And it is your misconception that there were no other evidence linking Amanda and Meredith made by her DNA and Meredith's blood. As a matter of fact mixed samples of the 2 were found in 5 different places in the cottage.
Besides which there is just so much else that proved their guilt.

But I'm cool if you want to go on believing fairy tales about an Italian conspiracy and anti Americanism and the little angel who could do no wrong.
 
What does the cost of a knife have to do with its sharpness?

A cheap knife can be every bit as sharp as an expensive one, or even sharper. Sharpness ultimately depends on how the knife is maintained. It has nearly nothing to do with cost.

And in this case the cheap knife, seeing as it was Raffaele's only kitchen knife, being used every day, would therefore become blunt very quickly, seeing as it was such a cheap knife. On the other hand, with 20 different knives to choose from, Amanda Knox's flat would have plenty of potential murder weapons.


Read for comprehension. Note the part of my post which I highlighted. You do understand that "maintained" means 'taken care of on a regular basis', right? It is completely irrelevant how often the knife was used, or how regularly. The only thing that would be relevant is how often it was sharpened.

In general, a kitchen where the knives are used often will tend to have sharper ones, simply because maintenance becomes more important. The ones that are used the most will normally get the most attention.

If you had chosen to include more of my post than you did in your quote it might have included the part where I explained why cheaper knives can often be found to be sharper in many kitchens than more expensive ones. I suppose you overlooked that in the original as well.

Do we have any reason to believe that Sollecito would be negligent in the maintenance of his knives? Perhaps he was not particularly knowledgeable or interested in them? Most of the time a kitchen has dull knives it is because the people using them do not use them regularly, or don't know how to take care of them. Are you claiming that this is the case with Sollecito? Why do you think this?
 
Nobody 'knows' that it was used in the murder. It would be very interesting to know if the blade had been sharpened at all. Did Rafaelle even own any kind of sharpening equipment?

Would it be too far a stretch so as to require one to express difficulty comprehending (or later to emit whines for documentation) that since Raffie was acknowledged by a source so unimpeachable as his own father to possess at least more than one pocketknife, that Raffie might then understandably own or at least have access to a 39 cent sharpening stone.:confused:
 
Do we have any reason to believe that Sollecito would be negligent in the maintenance of his knives? Perhaps he was not particularly knowledgeable or interested in them? Most of the time a kitchen has dull knives it is because the people using them do not use them regularly, or don't know how to take care of them. Are you claiming that this is the case with Sollecito? Why do you think this?

why would Rafaelle care about some piece of junk in the drawer in the flat paid for by his father? We already know he preferred to use his own knives most of the time for cooking.
 
Dr. Stefanoni's resume

I did listen to their experts.

Must be nice to sail through life disregarding whatever you don't happen to like.
And there is nothing fascistic in honoring the fair judicial conclusions by the Perugia court.

loverofzion,

Why don't you provide us with Dr. Stefanoni's training and qualifications so that we can compare them to Dr. Johnson's and Professor Hampikian's?
 
Well it is quite certain what the defence doucment doesn't say: they don't say there where no connection to cell 30064 prior to the 22:13. Maybe they were not, but the defence document certainly doesn't make this argument.

I don't see how Al-Fakh translation contradicts my reading of the original Italian.

Fair enough, I agree that the two calls which connected with the 30064 cell, mentioned by the defence, might have happened before 22:13 (I'd assumed they were suggesting those calls happened on November 2, based on one of the calls happening at the same time as Amanda's on that date). They don't specify a date, so it's possible they could have happened earlier.

About thoughtful, sha says:

"The appeal also notes that that call is the first one ever picked up by 30064 on Meredith's phone (at least I think that's what it says. It mentions two other phone calls at 12:11 and 16:22 picked up by that cell, but doesn't specify the date. If these are on Nov. 2 then this would be in contradiction with the Massei report, which states that all calls from 12:07 onwards were picked up by 25622.)"

The fact is that the court's report doesn't say that. The first connection on 25622 is at 00:10, while connections on nov. 1 were on 25620 betwen 14:00 and 15:00 and on 25621 between 15:00 and 16:00. To be honest the court of Assise doesn't confirm the defence data about cell 30064 (no call happens at 16:22, and the 12:11 is on nov 2, but on a different cell sector), but on the other hand doesn't give any particular contrary datum. However, my conclusion is that the defence proposes different arguments about the cell phones activities - based on the number of sms messages and anomalous use around 22:00 - but does not propose an argument based on a probative value of the 30064 cell usage at 22:13. The defence only wants to dismiss the probative value that the court attributed to the 22:13 call, by saying that this 30064 cell is well reachable also from the area of Parco S.Angelo. In other words, the defence doesn't say that the 22:13 call proves, instead they says it doesn't proove. They say instead that the 21:58 and 22:00 calls could "prove" the time of death.
I'm not sure I agree about the defence not putting forward an argument about the 22:13 call. Certainly they dispute Massei's statement that the phone must have been in the cottage at that time, based on the dichotomy between the two cells (one receivable at the cottage, the other in the garden). But I think they also argue it is more likely that the phone was on the way to garden then.

They point out, in the first place, that the cell 30064 has "optimum" coverage in St. Angelo Park, and that Massei acknowledged this. PMF translates "ottimale" as "excellent" in that sentence, but I had interpreted it more along the lines of Al's translation: "a place that enjoys the best coverage of the cell Wind 30064" (my translation: "a place that enjoys optimum coverage of the cell Wind 30064"). This is why I had assumed coverage of that cell was better in the Park than in the cottage, which you indicated in an earlier post was not the case. I think the point of the defence noting that coverage of the cell was 'optimal' in the Park is to suggest that it is more likely to have been there during that connection.

They also seem to claim that Meredith's cell had only connected with that particular cell twice before (on whichever date that had happened). Again, the point of mentioning that would seem to be that this was an unusual connection (particularly in view of the fact that of the series of four or five calls Meredith made from the house that day, none connected with cell 30064). If they were simply disputing Massei's certainty about where the phone was, I can't see why they would have mentioned this. I'm a bit unclear as to your view on this part of the defence's argument: are you saying the defence are wrong about this, or that they aren't actually saying it, or...?

They also appear to argue specifically that the phone was in the park then, as indeed did the defence expert during the trial:
In reality, it is certainly more in accordance with the objective data that Meredith’s cell was inside Parco S. Angelo at 22:13:29, at the moment in which the receipt of an MMS message activated the GPRS connection and the murderer, realizing that he had with him a dangerous bit of evidence, thought to get rid of it by throwing it in the direction of what he took to be a cliff, but then turned out to be the garden of the Lana-Biscarini house, the house situated in via Sperandio 5 bis, which does not conflict with any of the objective elements acquired during the trial.

In realtà è certamente più rispondente ai dati oggettivi che il cellulare di Meredith si trovasse proprio all’interno di Parco S. Angelo alle 22:13:29, al momento in cui la ricezione di un messaggio mms ha attivato la connessione GPRS e l’assassino, ricordatosi di avere con sé un pericoloso elemento di prova, ha ritenuto di disfarsene lanciandolo in direzione di quello che riteneva essere un dirupo, poi rivelatosi essere il giardino di casa Lana-Biscarini, la villa sita in via Sperandio 5 bis, ciò che non è in contrasto con alcuno degli elementi oggettivi acquisiti agli atti.
Although I agree - as I said in a previous post to Christiana - that the defence are principally disputing Massei's certainty that the phone was still in the house, I think they are also suggesting that it is somewhat more likely to have been already in the park at that point. Why else would they note the 'optimal' coverage in the park and say that there were only two other calls which had connected with that cell?
 
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Would it be too far a stretch so as to require one to express difficulty comprehending (or later to emit whines for documentation) that since Raffie was acknowledged by a source so unimpeachable as his own father to possess at least more than one pocketknife, that Raffie might then understandably own or at least have access to a 39 cent sharpening stone.:confused:


If you can reword whatever you're saying into English man, I can't wait to hear it.
 
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Nobody 'knows' that it was used in the murder. It would be very interesting to know if the blade had been sharpened at all. Did Rafaelle even own any kind of sharpening equipment?


Do we know if he had any familiarity with or interest in cooking or knives? That would be a better indicator. I can sharpen a knife on the back of a stoneware plate, and hone it on the handle of a cheap butterknife. Sharpening equipment of any great complexity is not a prerequisite, and can be a sign of inexperience. The more complicated the gizmo, the less comfortable people feel about their own skills. I have a kitchen stone and a steel. That's all that is needful for someone who knows what they're doing.
 
I can sharpen a knife on the back of a stoneware plate, and hone it on the handle of a cheap butterknife. Sharpening equipment of any great complexity is not a prerequisite, and can be a sign of inexperience. The more complicated the gizmo, the less comfortable people feel about their own skills. I have a kitchen stone and a steel. That's all that is needful for someone who knows what they're doing.

I'm sure you're very good at sharpening knives. That's a very useful skill when you want to kill and eat other human beings.
 
Do we know if he had any familiarity with or interest in cooking or knives? That would be a better indicator. I can sharpen a knife on the back of a stoneware plate, and hone it on the handle of a cheap butterknife. Sharpening equipment of any great complexity is not a prerequisite, and can be a sign of inexperience. The more complicated the gizmo, the less comfortable people feel about their own skills. I have a kitchen stone and a steel. That's all that is needful for someone who knows what they're doing.
Raffaelo was the cook in the relationship with Amanda; she was quoted as saying that he prepared their meals on a daily basis since they met.
 
Do we know if he had any familiarity with or interest in cooking or knives? That would be a better indicator. I can sharpen a knife on the back of a stoneware plate, and hone it on the handle of a cheap butterknife. Sharpening equipment of any great complexity is not a prerequisite, and can be a sign of inexperience. The more complicated the gizmo, the less comfortable people feel about their own skills. I have a kitchen stone and a steel. That's all that is needful for someone who knows what they're doing.
And of course you know Raffaelo was an avid knife collector; he was reported to change knives according to his outift (!)
He even carried one on him when called to the Questura for questioning.
 
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