Merged Teabagger Candidate Rich Iott is into Nazi Cosplay

[Unabogie]

Nope, thanks. I wrote that before I saw your link. My last post addresses the quote.

Any thoughts on what I have said about reenactment groups?

canis

Yes, the quote from the Wikings says that they were valiant, regardless of how unsavory the Nazi government was, and only were fighting for a better tomorrow. In reality, they were monsters who killed and maimed Jews, almost for pure pleasure.

I'm not sure that the softening of that fact helps, rather than hinders this guy's predicament.

Thought experiment: It comes out that Barack Obama, a huge history buff, spends his weekends re-enacting 9/11 and playing one of the terrorists.

Does this help him or hurt him?

Discuss.

 

[johnny karate]

This is speaking of the historical situation in WWII and referencing some of the contemporary propaganda used to recruit non-german nationials into the SS. The parts I have bolded above clearly indicate that the unit's website diapproves of the nazi party and it's political ideas. They are not praising the nazis as bringers of a better tommorrow, They are clearly and unmistakably bemoaning the loss of life in the name of such a false hope.

I disagree with your interpretation.

The section you quoted strikes me more as a glossing-over of historical fact than a repudiation of Nazism. For on thing, it seems to put the blame for atrocities on "other Nazis" while completely ignoring the fact that this particular division committed atrocities themselves (see quixotecoyote's post upthread).

It leaves the reader with the false impression that the members of the Wiking S.S. Panzer division were misguided idealists as opposed to murdering war criminals.

 

[geni]

He wasn't a WWII reenactor - in that he didn't belong to a group that reenacts WWII battles, with some of them as Allied forces and some of them as Nazis - he was part of a group that emulates and celebrates a specific S.S. Panzer division.

I'm not aware of many groups that do both sides. Since there are no shortage of groups that play as one of the allied armies it is logisticaly less effort to stick with one devission and meet up with another group if you want to do battle reenactment.

Thats not to say there are not some ah interesting characters in the ww2 reenactment mob. General rule is they get saner the further back you go.

 

[geni]

It leaves the reader with the false impression that the members of the Wiking S.S. Panzer division were misguided idealists as opposed to murdering war criminals.

You are suggesting that there is a difference between those two options?

 

[Pardalis]

Didn't they just give an Oscar to a guy who played a Nazi?

 

[johnny karate]

I'm not aware of many groups that do both sides. Since there are no shortage of groups that play as one of the allied armies it is logisticaly less effort to stick with one devission and meet up with another group if you want to do battle reenactment.

Thats not to say there are not some ah interesting characters in the ww2 reenactment mob. General rule is they get saner the further back you go.

I'll admit to ignorance as to how war reenactment groups operate. But that doesn't change the fact that this guy belonged to a group that glorified the S.S. Perhaps that's how it works among WWII reenactors, I don't know. But it doesn't make it any less distasteful.

 

[johnny karate]

It leaves the reader with the false impression that the members of the Wiking S.S. Panzer division were misguided idealists as opposed to murdering war criminals.

You are suggesting that there is a difference between those two options?

I'm suggesting that when you only mention the former and omit the latter, you are being purposely disingenuous.

 

[johnny karate]

Didn't they just give an Oscar to a guy who played a Nazi?

They've also given Oscars to guys who played serial killers.

 

[Pardalis]

Yes, the quote from the Wikings says that they were valiant, regardless of how unsavory the Nazi government was, and only were fighting for a better tomorrow. In reality, they were monsters who killed and maimed Jews, almost for pure pleasure.

I'm not sure that the softening of that fact helps, rather than hinders this guy's predicament.

Thought experiment: It comes out that Barack Obama, a huge history buff, spends his weekends re-enacting 9/11 and playing one of the terrorists.

Does this help him or hurt him?

Discuss.

I once spent a summer in my adolescence playing Star Wars Tie Fighter, a video game from the Empire's perspective. I guess that makes me evil.

 

[caniswalensis]

Yes, the quote from the Wikings says that they were valiant, regardless of how unsavory the Nazi government was, and only were fighting for a better tomorrow. In reality, they were monsters who killed and maimed Jews, almost for pure pleasure.

Again, they are speaking of foriegn nationals; individual soldiers on the front line. Surely anyone can understand the difference between an individual person and a political movement's policies. I will not pretend to be familiar enough with the history of this unit to pass judment on all the individuals that belonged to it.

Do not think that I am in complete disagreement with what you are saying about this unit. It is a common, if perhaps naive idea that the average german soldier was a relativly innocent person caught up in a monsterous war machine. This may indeed be the case with wermact troops, although surely not a rule. SS units are quite a different matter, but there is still some difference from unit to unit. while some are worse than others, I am not sure if there is a single unit of the ss that is free from the stain of committing atrocities.

I will tell you again though, this hobby only works if you have two sides. Someone has to be the bad guys. Thats what these guys are doing. I can tell you that a few of my recreator friends that do german or confederate of britsh portrayals have confessed to me that it bothers them a little to always be the perceived as the bad guy. They chose their primary side for personal reasons like I have mentioned already, but it is tiresome to listen to the same inane questions or comments from naive spectators time after time. Each of my confederate recreator friends has been approached several times and confronted about the issue of slavory. People tend to make the assumption that they somehow identify with the nation's army that they are recreating. It is wrong. These guys are not monsters. They are just guys.

I think it is very natural and understandable for this unit to try to put a better face on what they do by shifting the focus to the individual combat and away from the nazi political agenda and actions the unit may have taken as a result of those policies. They obviously spend a good deal of time and cashola on their hobby, and I can see why they would not want to spend a lot of time telling us all how evil they are.

I think we are splitting hairs here, though. The groups website clearly distances itself from the policies and practices of the nazi party. They aren't nazis.

Please, by all means, think what you want of Mr. Iott. I don't even care about him. Vote against him if that is what you think is best. But don't use a trumped-up charge of nazi-ism based on his participation in a living-history group to justify it. It's not right and it does a huge disservice to to the reenactors all over America who get out and sweat their asses off in wool uniforms to entertain people every independence day.

regards, Canis

I'm not sure that the softening of that fact helps, rather than hinders this guy's predicament.
Thought experiment: It comes out that Barack Obama, a huge history buff, spends his weekends re-enacting 9/11 and playing one of the terrorists.

Does this help him or hurt him?

Discuss.

I'm not sure what the point of such an experiment would be. I don't care if The president or Mr. Iott help or hinder their political carreers with their hobbies.

I just like to be accurate & factual when I condenm people as nazis.

Regards, Canis

 

[caniswalensis]

I disagree with your interpretation.

The section you quoted strikes me more as a glossing-over of historical fact than a repudiation of Nazism. For on thing, it seems to put the blame for atrocities on "other Nazis" while completely ignoring the fact that this particular division committed atrocities themselves (see quixotecoyote's post upthread).

It leaves the reader with the false impression that the members of the Wiking S.S. Panzer division were misguided idealists as opposed to murdering war criminals.

That's your privilige, but I am not interpreting the meaning of the words there. They are clear enough to be read without that.

You however are reading into this paragraph something that is not there. Before that gets your dander up, let me say that I do not totally disagree with what you are adding to it.

As I said above, These guys are not monsters, they are hobbyists. The put lot of time & money into this hobby. Someone has to be the bad guy, and they have chosen to do that. Can you blame tham for not dwelling on how evil they are? Do you really think that people need to be educated about how bad nazis were?

I have spent all morning now on this thread. It was fun, but I have stuff to do. Think what you want of Mr. Iott, but keep in mind that these recreators are not evil nazis, they are just regular guys that like their fun hobby.

You may want to think about taking my word on this one. I am deep into this stuff and have been a card carrying history nerd for over thirty years now.

Take care all, Canis

 

[johnny karate]

Just to be clear: I'm not claiming that Iott necessarily is a Nazi. All am saying is that a guy who belonged to a group that pretends to be Nazis and glorifies their exploits isn't going to be given the benefit of the doubt from me.

 

[Bikewer]

One of our officers (also a veteran of Iraq) is a reinactor; he even has a reproduction German WWII motorcycle complete with sidecar.
As un-nazi a fellow as you'd be likely to meet....

This sort of thing is quite popular, as are Civil-war types. They spend a LOT of money on authentic uniforms and equipment.
As noted, Wehrmacht does not necessarily equal Nazi.

I played WWII online for about two years as part of a Wehrmacht group. Not a Nazi bone in my body.

 

[Unabogie]

I once spent a summer in my adolescence playing Star Wars Tie Fighter, a video game from the Empire's perspective. I guess that makes me evil.

One, I hope you're aware of the difference between fictional and real events? And two, did you think the empire was only fighting for a better tomorrow?

 

[johnny karate]

One of our officers (also a veteran of Iraq) is a reinactor; he even has a reproduction German WWII motorcycle complete with sidecar.
As un-nazi a fellow as you'd be likely to meet....

This sort of thing is quite popular, as are Civil-war types. They spend a LOT of money on authentic uniforms and equipment.
As noted, Wehrmacht does not necessarily equal Nazi.

I played WWII online for about two years as part of a Wehrmacht group. Not a Nazi bone in my body.

Two things:

1) These guys weren't Wehrmacht, they were S.S.

2) These guys went beyond authentic uniforms. They put up a website proclaiming the valor and idealism of an S.S. division that committed atrocities.

 

[Pardalis]

One, I hope you're aware of the difference between fictional and real events?

There are many WW2 video games that allows one to play on the Axis side too, that doesn't make one a supporter. One knows when one plays that it's just make belief, and just for fun.

 

[caniswalensis]

Just to be clear: I'm not claiming that Iott necessarily is a Nazi. All am saying is that a guy who belonged to a group that pretends to be Nazis and glorifies their exploits isn't going to be given the benefit of the doubt from me.[/QUOTE]

Ok I admit it, I had to take just one more peek. It was too good a discussion not to! lol

Anyway JK, This is a fair sentiment, but the part I have bolded above is the problem. You are making an assumption about the group that is not true.

What this group does should not be charactorized as glorifying nazis. I don't know them personally, but I am sure that they would be appaled by such an accusation.

It may seem strange to the outsider that someone could be interested in dressing like a direputable charactor and reinacting battles. I will tell you thought that it is easy to get caught up in such a thing, even if you find the politics disgusting on a personal level. I know that some actors consider villianous roles to be the most fun & satisfying to play.

I am a huge history buff/nerd myself. I am currently on a tear about the boxer rebellion. I can tell you that if there were any groups out there doing recreations of the boxer rebellion, I would be all over that. It is an amazingly interesting conflict and I would just love to be involved in something like that. Now, here is the hitch. I'm a caucasion guy, so I would pretty much have to portray a soldier from one of the european powers, even though I find their policies towards China at the time to be completely disgusting. it would just be such a blast to be a part of that, I wouldnt even mind being a "bad guy." You can bet that I would put a lot of time & care into making my uniform accurate. I would learn all the details I could about my equipment and unit, and spout them off at the least provocation. I wouldn't be doing all that to glorify the way that the whole civilized world gangd up to exploit China. I would be doing it because History is important and fun to me, even the horrible parts. I would be doing it so that for just a bit, I might get a beter feeling of what it was like to be there.

I bet you dollars to donuts, when these guys get together at someone's house, they are not discussing how awesome it was when their namesake unit burnt a village or raped a townfull of women. they are talking about the latest grenade simulator design, or how gary's uniform has the wrong kind of buttons, or how Pete's vulcanized fiber entrenching tool carrier is too "late war" and how he needs to get a leather one, or how many vehicles will be at the next battle.

Yes, it's a little goofy; not monsterous though.

regards, Canis

P.S. Here I am in my medieval armor:

 

[fuelair]

See that doesn't bother me so much. Being interested in Nazis, Stalinists, the Taliban, etc. isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's what TPM talked about regarding the fact that they've sanitized and apologized for them while enacting the Nazi soldier fantasy.

You won't find this on their site:

If I can find this in five minutes when I check to see if this really was a uniquely honorable SS unit, I'm sure they are aware of it, being so interested in the history.

As much as I can understand the notion of respecting the bravery and sacrifice of soldiers, even those who commit atrocities, I don't think elevating those soldiers to heroic status and making a hobby of emulating a fantasy of them speaks well of the people who do it.

Soldiers who knowingly commit atrocities will not find me appreciating/respecting them. But, to make it clear, it is not an atrocity to massively fire on an enemy if the enemy is hiding behind and firing from the midst of civilians, it is not an atrocity to bomb a military facility located in the midst of civilian occupied space or a manufacturiong/power/water/ etc facility being use to produce or stor military materials. Lots of anti war people get hung up on those but the rules of war do not require our side to die for the other side's civilians and they do state no military function may be carried out/performed in civilian areas or it becomes a war target.

 

[fuelair]

Just to be clear: I'm not claiming that Iott necessarily is a Nazi. All am saying is that a guy who belonged to a group that pretends to be Nazis and glorifies their exploits isn't going to be given the benefit of the doubt from me.[/QUOTE]

Ok I admit it, I had to take just one more peek. It was too good a discussion not to! lol
Yes, it's a little goofy; not monsterous though.

regards, Canis

P.S. Here I am in my medieval armor:
[qimg]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg206/caniswalensis/SCA/I33ward.jpg[/qimg]

I love the Boxer rebellion!! All those idjits believing their philosophy made them invincible against bullets!! My kind of enemy!!


Nice armor by the way. Did you knit )) your own chain mail?

 

[Normal Dude]

Just to be clear: I'm not claiming that Iott necessarily is a Nazi. All am saying is that a guy who belonged to a group that pretends to be Nazis and glorifies their exploits isn't going to be given the benefit of the doubt from me.

When I was in the 82nd, a few guys in my platoon played the S.S. in reenactments (they also played the 82nd sometimes of course). They did it because they love military history and have a deep interest in the German military, even the SS, of the time. These guys are as far from Nazis as you could imagine. Your stance on this is purely emotional and simplistic.