Is there an "atheist perspective"?

[ideogram]

I really hate the term "atheist". It's like the term "foreigner". What do all foreigners have in common?

You speak of comparing atheists to the "general population". Don't you think your results would depend on which "general population" you are comparing to? Someone brought up the example of China. Have you seriously thought about what it means to be an atheist in China compared to being an atheist in the US?

I would like to suggest that from now on the word atheist be qualified with which religion the atheist is rejecting. Most people in the West would therefore be Christian atheists.

 

[fromdownunder]

This is clearly a strawman. Nowhere have I stated what I believe and I have not stated that anybody is wrong.

That is the basic problem. You never do, so you do not leave any room for discussion, because you start a thread, and then passively post one liners without actually saying anything. Nobody can actually understand where you are going, so it becomes impossible to discuss.

I'm outta here.

Norm

 

[lionking]

That is the basic problem. You never do, so you do not leave any room for discussion, because you start a thread, and then passively post one liners without actually saying anything. Nobody can actually understand where you are going, so it becomes impossible to discuss.

I'm outta here.

Norm

I agree with this. It isn't even particularly good trolling.

 

[Wolfman]

I can consider your position the null hypothesis. I'm not ready to accept it and think it is possible to reject it.

I don't think this null hypothesis can be accepted solely on logic.

Heck, this is easy. I've heard others try to make similar claims. I have a simple challenge in response.

Simply state for me any belief or world view that is implicit to being an atheist, beyond the lack of belief in a god (or beliefs that are dependent upon belief in a god).

Evolution? Nope...as stated, atheism pre-dated the theory of evolution, and therefore cannot logically be considered an implicitly atheist view.

Materialism? Nope...lots of atheists out there who dismiss materialist perspectives (I know one atheist who equally denies the existence of god, and of objective reality).

I argue that not only is my argument logically consistent, but that any other argument is inherently wrong. Being an atheist does not in any manner constrain or determine my beliefs or views, beyond the obvious exclusion of anything related to the existence of a god. Yes, given particular environments, some atheists may be predisposed to certain beliefs; but that's it. Any effort to extend general observations about a particular pool of atheists to generalizations about an overall "atheist perspective" are doomed to failure, because no such thing exists.

 

[Christian]

It is only useful if you actually think about the responses you get, and then follow up with, ...you know... actual discussion. If you do not do this, then you are wasting your time, or just trolling.

Your responses on this and the earlier thread you started do not inspire a lot of confidence, so I suggest you start actually participating instead of posting one liners. You know, free and fearless discussion, and there are already a couple of responses which require such.

Norm

Try to be fair. Your first response to my thread was an interesting biographical piece. I can't comment on it because it is outside the bounds of my knowledge, and I can only see a marginal relation to the thread. You ended with a strawman. I can't defend a position I have not taken.

With regards to other posters, I have answered to the best of my abilities. The fact that I don't agree with specifics positions (the majority's position) should not disqualify me as a serious thoughtful poster.

 

[Christian]

That is the basic problem. You never do, so you do not leave any room for discussion, because you start a thread, and then passively post one liners without actually saying anything. Nobody can actually understand where you are going, so it becomes impossible to discuss.

I'm outta here.

Norm

Are we reading the same thread? A poster is stating that through sheer logic one can conclude there is no atheist's perspective. I disagree. I can understand you don't want to discuss this and that is your choice. But, I not going to ascribe to the position you want so you can beat me with it.

 

[ideogram]

Are you familiar with the technique of "framing"?

I believe your question is based on invalid assumptions. You create this category and then ask what else people in this category have in common. Simply by defining the category you imply that it is a useful category, and therefore lead people to expect there is something to find here.

Another assumption you are making is that it's a useful question.

 

[Christian]

Heck, this is easy. I've heard others try to make similar claims. I have a simple challenge in response.

Simply state for me any belief or world view that is implicit to being an atheist, beyond the lack of belief in a god (or beliefs that are dependent upon belief in a god).

This is not my hypothesis. First you are assigning attributes that I have not stated. From the very beginning I stated that It was important to point out that the most we could conclude is that the average atheist is more likely to be more of this or that. This means that I can make a statement about a population and it's averages. I can't make a statement that would hold true for every individual in the population. And this good enough because inferences for a population can apply to the average individual of the population.

YAny effort to extend general observations about a particular pool of atheists to generalizations about an overall "atheist perspective" are doomed to failure, because no such thing exists.

I don't think this is true. From Wikipedia I give this generalization of an atheist population:

* In the U.S. states with the highest percentages of atheists, there are the fewest murders. In the most religious U.S. states, there are the most murders.
* Only 0.2 % percent of U.S. prisoners are atheists.
* Atheists are more tolerant towards women's and homosexuals' rights.
* Atheism and secularism correlate with high levels of education, and low levels of racial prejudice.
* Atheists beat their children less often than others, and more often encourage them to think independently.
* In Sweden, the most secular country in the world according to Zuckerman, the charitable aid given is the highest as a proportion of GDP.

 

[ideogram]

I don't think this is true. From Wikipedia I give this generalization of an atheist population:

* In the U.S. states ...
* Only 0.2 % percent of U.S. prisoners ...

I believe this example was addressed by the argument that a survey of atheists in China is unlikely to yield the same results.

 

[Christian]

Are you familiar with the technique of "framing"?

I believe your question is based on invalid assumptions. You create this category and then ask what else people in this category have in common. Simply by defining the category you imply that it is a useful category, and therefore lead people to expect there is something to find here.

Another assumption you are making is that it's a useful question.

This is a fair observation. I do think the category is useful. Good evidence for this is the fact that the category exists, I didn't not create it.

It is a useful scenario for me. Take the exchange that by sheer logic one con accept the null hypothesis. If that is the case, then I have no problem conceding the point and have learned something very valuable.

 

[ideogram]

I have a hypothesis that all people born between the dates of August 23 and September 22 have some things in common. Actually, I am sure that they have some things in common, but I still don't take the question very seriously.

 

[ideogram]

This is a fair observation. I do think the category is useful. Good evidence for this is the fact that the category exists, I didn't not create it.

This is why I said the term "atheist" is like the term "foreigner". Fundamentally what it really means is "not like us" where "us" are the people who invented the term. Therefore, the term "atheist" was invented by Christians to categorize people "not like us".

 

[Lothian]

The only trait I have really seen is that if you split a nation by level of education the more highly educated a group, the less religious they are. Of course belief does not go from 100% in the lowest group to 0% in the highest but nevertheless there is a trend.

 

[Christian]

I believe this example was addressed by the argument that a survey of atheists in China is unlikely to yield the same results.

There is a theory that humans are predisposed to believe in deities. I think most chinese are not atheists. From my understanding, most believe in some form of deities. What I'm saying is that a random sample would give us a good answer. I don't think it can be done solely by logical reasoning.

 

[Christian]

The only trait I have really seen is that if you split a nation by level of education the more highly educated a group, the less religious they are. Of course belief does not go from 100% in the lowest group to 0% in the highest but nevertheless there is a trend.

If this is correct, we can infer more things from this: values, morals, etc.

 

[lionking]

If this is correct, we can infer more things from this: values, morals, etc.

Are you trying to demonstrate that atheists display "Christian" traits?

This is going to be good

 

[Christian]

Are you trying to demonstrate that atheists display "Christian" traits?

This is going to be good

I don't follow your logic. If someone is more educated he or she will value education more and maybe a lurking variable is education, maybe not.

 

[Lothian]

If this is correct, we can infer more things from this: values, morals, etc.

I think it is backed up.

from wiki

In 2008, intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal Intelligence demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions. [4] "I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor.
​

Also note the chart on that page which shows a trend where the higher the mean IQ in a country the lower the religious belief.

Can we infer things? Possibly some things but they are only likely to bear out over a large population. They will arise out of correlation not causation.

 

[JJM 777]

Atheist are more likely not to be believe in spirituality than the general population, on average.

That is true, to a lexicographic extent.

Also black cars are more likely not to be red than the general car population, on average.

There can be some very limited similarities in how atheists (or religionists) think, but I don't expect many, having seen all the variety in how religionists see the world.

 

[lionking]

I don't follow your logic. If someone is more educated he or she will value education more and maybe a lurking variable is education, maybe not.

I was talking about your reference to values and morals. But evade the question if you want.