Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RWVBWL]

Nor expect her to think she had the slightest chance against THREE attackers.

Hi loverofzion,
Have you ever looked at the photograph of Miss Kercher's bedroom with her still there?

If not, click on the link to Perugia Shock I am enclosing:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/01/imperfect-cleanup.html

and then click on the 3rd photograph.
It should become enlarged a bit.
Doing so, sadly and tragically, gives a person a size comparison for the room...

According to Barbie Nadeau, on page 45 of "Angel Face" she writes that
"A pile of Perugia postcards that Meredith had written to friends sat on her nightstand next to a paperback book and a glass of water."

Do you really believe that, with 4 people in that small bedroom, a glass of water did not get knocked over in a life-ending fight? Come on, loverofzion!

I can see, at the maximum, 2 strong men, 1 holding her and the other holding the knife, doing this,
and not creating too much of a disturbance in the rest of the room, nor spilling the water and knocking over that pile of Perugia postcards on her nightstand...
RWVBWL

PS-R.I.P. Miss Meredith Kercher

 

[Draca]

You are forgetting Sollecito's DNA on Meredith's bra clasp.

True. I find the chain of custody, location of second discovery and multiple DNA profiles more than problamatic. However, the court didn't throw it out so I guess I can't for them.


As far as the rest, we are talking about MK's bedroom. The only 'evidence' of either AK or RS being in the bedroom is what you sited above.

 

[Justinian2]

Thanks for the information. That's 5'5" and 125 lbs (under 9 stone in English money). From photos, Guede seems well over 6 ft and, slight build or not, hardly underfed. I don't think there's much more to be said.

There is a fighting technique that works pretty well for a light person against a heavier person. Just attack. With elbows and knees flailing just take a run at the guy. Use your head to head butt. Slam your knee into his groin.

Unfortunately, if the guy has a knife, he will get mad. I imagine he could stab you. If you were moving, the knife would cut a wide cut, especially if you never saw it coming.

Then he might get you a towel.

When my youngest son was about 14, he weighed 125, he could do 200 sit-ups and 100 pushups. When he attacked in the manner I described, you would feel it. You sure would feel it! His older brother and I had a lot of bruises to prove it.

But against a scared six foot man with a knife? No chance.

Furthermore, I was stabbed once because the guy forget he had a knife in his hand when he reached out to stop me.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

depositing DNA is expected

Hi loverofzion,
I don't know if you are a guy, but if so, come over to my house sometime, use my sink in my bathroom and purposely cut yourself while shaving,
don't stop or wipe up the drops and I betcha that MY DNA and your blood will be mixed in however many spots that fell as you bleed...
RWVBWL

RWVBWL,

I agree. I would expect brushing and flossing one's teeth would deposit DNA, for example.

 

[el buscador]

Thanks for the information. That's 5'5" and 125 lbs (under 9 stone in English money). From photos, Guede seems well over 6 ft and, slight build or not, hardly underfed. I don't think there's much more to be said.

Hi Antony,

Rudy was 179 cm, about 5' 10.5" according to his ID. You can see the ID here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161229&highlight=rudy+height&page=200

 

[Katody Matrass]

Hi Draca,
I have been having a browse over on Perugia Shock, and it has been posts such as this from Frank Sfarzo that I am sharing that has made me wonder if someone else was there when Miss Kercher was brutally stabbed to death:

"Is it possible Rudy committed the crime alone?
Let's examine this possibility. First, I have to recall my original assumption that this can hardly be a deliberate crime, because:

-If you want to kill someone with a knife, you make wounds much more serious than the ones found on Meredith. In this case, the carotid artery wasn't even cut. If the killer really wanted her to die, he would have stabbed her again.
-If you want to kill someone, you don't try to save her. But here it seems they tried to stop her bleeding with towels, at least for a short time.

So, this tragic death must have been an accident. The hell of an accident. Meredith was under threat of a knife. While in that position maybe she made a sudden movement in order to free herself, and the knife went straight into her. This always suggested to me that the one holding Meredith, was a different person than the one holding the knife. If he or she were the same person, he could have followed Meredith's movement, and avoided cutting her. But being another person, he or she perceived Meredith's movements with a deadly delay, and couldn't avoid cutting her. This person cut not only Meredith's throat, but Rudy's hand as well--- unless we want to believe Rudy cut himself, or as he says, was injured by a stranger.

So, only in view of the dynamics, this crime could hardly have been committed by one person."

Interesting to consider, which I do and also keep in mind that Rudy Guede has, as reported by Barbie Nadeau, a slight build...
RWVBWL

PS-I'm sure Frank Sfarzo has written more on this subject, but this particular passage has always stuck out to me, so I have noted it...

I think the stabbing was not accidental. You don't stab and cut someone repeatedly by accident. Both the extent of Meredith's wounds and the cut on Rudy's hand suggest an intention to kill.

We know that there were no obvious signs of struggle in the room. Apart from the injuries around mouth only slight bruises on the left elbow can be attributed to a restraining action. This indicates that the victim was not resisting physically during most of the assault.

I think although Rudy was not accustomed to stabbing people, he realized that this time there is no way he could get away with this, and he must get rid of the only witness and victim. He realized he must actually use the knife that served him only to threaten before.

The likely dynamic is that during some kind of sexual assault on non resisting victim he suddenly grabbed and covered her mouth with one hand and sloppily tried to stab her few times with the other. This action was very swift and left Meredith very little time to try to grab his hands or stop the weapon. Being on the floor she was also in no position to defend herself.
Thus no obvious defensive wounds and only some fibers found on her hands - maybe from Rudy's clothing, when she grabbed his wrist?

 

[Trigood]

Trigood,

I only have time for a brief response to LexRex, but to say that there is no way around the DNA evidence is nonsense. LexRex should read the Johnson/Hampikian open letter for starters. Then he is welcome to look here. Therefore, the rest of his remarks should be read with caution, IMHO.

Hi Halides,

Actually, that was me that said there's no way past the DNA evidence. (The quote from LexRex, who is not me, was all in a quote box; the rest was me.)

I have read the Hampikian letter, and it didn't change my opinion. I'll check out your other link as I have time. Thanks!

However, I think my words have been twisted to mean that I think only the DNA evidence is important. I find it important, yes, very important; but I also base my opinion on AK's and RS's guilt on the totality of the evidence. Thanks.

T.

 

[Antony]

Hi Antony,

Rudy was 179 cm, about 5' 10.5" according to his ID. You can see the ID here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161229&highlight=rudy+height&page=200

OK, thanks - so not over 6 ft. I stand corrected. But there's no reason to think he would have had any difficulty in subduing Meredith unaided and without knocking over very much in the room.

 

[el buscador]

OK, thanks - so not over 6 ft. I stand corrected. But there's no reason to think he would have had any difficulty in subduing Meredith unaided and without knocking over very much in the room.

I think you are correct. He was athletic and fit so I don't think he'd have had any problem subduing a frightened young woman.

 

[Trigood]

A desert consisting of cheese and plant fibers? Hmm..

The "mozzarella" was followed by a question mark in Massei: "caseosis (mozzarella?)". I'm not sure what "caseosis" means, exactly.

I think Massei said "vegetable fibers." (If I'm wrong, please correct.) I guess I was reading that as pieces of apple, but I realize now that apples aren't vegetables.

So, maybe I was wrong about the pizza being already digested. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

But, it still doesn't mean I accept stomach contents as valid indicators of TOD. No pathologist I've heard of has said they are, except within plus or minus hours, not a half-hour.

 

[christianahannah]

Hi loverofzion,
Have you ever looked at the photograph of Miss Kercher's bedroom with her still there?

If not, click on the link to Perugia Shock I am enclosing:

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/01/imperfect-cleanup.html

and then click on the 3rd photograph.
It should become enlarged a bit.
Doing so, sadly and tragically, gives a person a size comparison for the room...

According to Barbie Nadeau, on page 45 of "Angel Face" she writes that
"A pile of Perugia postcards that Meredith had written to friends sat on her nightstand next to a paperback book and a glass of water."

Do you really believe that, with 4 people in that small bedroom, a glass of water did not get knocked over in a life-ending fight? Come on, loverofzion!

I can see, at the maximum, 2 strong men, 1 holding her and the other holding the knife, doing this,
and not creating too much of a disturbance in the rest of the room, nor spilling the water and knocking over that pile of Perugia postcards on her nightstand...
RWVBWL

PS-R.I.P. Miss Meredith Kercher

There were 5 photos taken of paper-like material with shoeprint images from Meredith's room. I do not know where these papers were located, however, I assume on the floor (due to images of shoeprints on them). I don't know where these papers originated from, what they are, and how they got to the floor.

Massei also mentions these papers, along with one (may be more) from Filomena's room in the motivations.

Page 336-337:

• Exhibit Q (Romanelli’s room): two prints left by the superimposition of dust on a postcard were found. Print number 1, left by a right shoe and the sole useful for negative comparisons, was not produced by any of the shoes tested

• photo 17/21 (Meredith Kercher’s room) prints on paper-like material: these were not produced by the shoes tested.

I wanted to add, because I forgot, Rinaldi has photos of these papers in his shoeprint presentation.

 

[pilot padron]

It's rather less of a leap than it is for Amanda and Raffaele. The guilter meme is that we somehow accept that the 2 of them turned on one of Amanda's best friends for no sensible reason.

It's not even necessary to believe that Guede intended to kill Meredith; but there's pretty solid evidence that he was in the flat when she was killed and sexually molested - and none at all that there was any 3rd person there.

1) Far be it from me to speak for the copevolisti community as a whole, but I can say without hesitation that reading from you here and now that Meredith was one of Amanda's best friends is indeed a remarkable first time encounter for me.

2) When you say "he (Rudy) was in the flat and no evidence that a 3rd person was *there*"....,
from all the reading I have done that statement is also an innovative but inaccurate 'groundbreaker' that I also cannot silently accept.

Moore's most recent and some others long before him believe there was no evidence of AK in the murder room.

(See Curt's carefully parsed first and many, many subsequent media Interviews when he uses "iota or scintilla", and when Moore uses aviation oriented "hovering" to refer specifically and unequivocally to the murder room)
Note also that even these statements even so carefully and deliberately restricted, and ever so less damning than yours, still receive less than universal acceptance.

Surely you also meant to say just (murder room) and not your "anywhere in the flat".

 

[RWVBWL]

Behaviour to be severely condemned certainly.
But a huge leap from there to murder and sexual assault surely?

Greetings again Magister,
Did you know that on the night before Meredith Kercher was killed, on Halloween, Rudy Guede met up with 2 female Spanish Erasmus scholars who lived upstairs from him?
Carolina and Marta went to a party and met him there, afterwards heading over to another Spanish party. Next they went to the Domus nightclub. Meredith and her friends showed up at the Domus nightclub too.
Of the 2 Spanish girls, Marta left first, but Carolina stayed until 5:30am and she says that she saw Rudy dancing with a blond girl with long straight hair that night, probably having a great time, I would imagine.

Looking at the bigger picture, within less then 24 hours, Rudy Guede went from hanging out with 2 gal friends, and dancing with a blonde girl, to then possibly murdering another gal he personally knew, and then surely sexually assaulting her.

You know, as I have spent the last few hours re-reading some past stories on Perugia Shock and recently re-reading "Angel Face" and "Murder in Italy", I still do not believe that Rudy Guede had it in him to intentionally murder Meredith Kercher, so I do question if he is indeed her killer.

And that is why I have lately been looking over some evidence with a different point of view.

Could it have actually been someone else who did stab Meredith Kercher to her death?
Hmmm. I'll ponder this as I hang out on the beach this afternoon, hoping to shoot a photograph of another Great White Shark breaching.
Take it easy,
RWVBWL

 

[RWVBWL]

I think the stabbing was not accidental. You don't stab and cut someone repeatedly by accident. Both the extent of Meredith's wounds and the cut on Rudy's hand suggest an intention to kill.

We know that there were no obvious signs of struggle in the room. Apart from the injuries around mouth only slight bruises on the left elbow can be attributed to a restraining action. This indicates that the victim was not resisting physically during most of the assault.

I think although Rudy was not accustomed to stabbing people, he realized that this time there is no way he could get away with this, and he must get rid of the only witness and victim. He realized he must actually use the knife that served him only to threaten before.

The likely dynamic is that during some kind of sexual assault on non resisting victim he suddenly grabbed and covered her mouth with one hand and sloppily tried to stab her few times with the other. This action was very swift and left Meredith very little time to try to grab his hands or stop the weapon. Being on the floor she was also in no position to defend herself.
Thus no obvious defensive wounds and only some fibers found on her hands - maybe from Rudy's clothing, when she grabbed his wrist?

Hi Katody Matrass,
An excellant post, as always!
RWVBWL

PS-Thanks for Rudy Guede's height info"el Buscador"!
PSS-Thank you too, "DanceMe" for Meredith Kercher's height and weight information!

 

[el buscador]

The "mozzarella" was followed by a question mark in Massei: "caseosis (mozzarella?)". I'm not sure what "caseosis" means, exactly.

I think Massei said "vegetable fibers." (If I'm wrong, please correct.) I guess I was reading that as pieces of apple, but I realize now that apples aren't vegetables.

So, maybe I was wrong about the pizza being already digested. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong.

But, it still doesn't mean I accept stomach contents as valid indicators of TOD. No pathologist I've heard of has said they are, except within plus or minus hours, not a half-hour.

Hi Trigood,
The plus or minus hours comes more into focus when there are witnesses that saw Meredith alive for most of the hours of the TOD. That only leaves the 30 minutes or so at the end of the curve for her to have been murdered.

 

[Katody Matrass]

The "mozzarella" was followed by a question mark in Massei: "caseosis (mozzarella?)". I'm not sure what "caseosis" means, exactly.

I think it means cheese-like substance.

I think Massei said "vegetable fibers." (If I'm wrong, please correct.) I guess I was reading that as pieces of apple, but I realize now that apples aren't vegetables.

Certainly it could have been apples, but I think you don't usually put the "fibrous" parts of apples in a apple-pie.

But, it still doesn't mean I accept stomach contents as valid indicators of TOD. No pathologist I've heard of has said they are, except within plus or minus hours, not a half-hour.

Does it mean you agree with the estimation of 2-4 hours after the meal, witch is the consensus of various experts in Massei Motivation?

 

[Trigood]

Trigood,

Allow me to make some assumptions about your evaluation of the DNA evidence. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

1) Do you accept that DNA evidence cannot be dated as to the time of deposit? If so, then what is your evaluation of Amanda’s DNA on the handle of a kitchen knife?

2) Do you acknowledge that three unknown people deposited their DNA in the bra clasp innocently? If so, then why do you conclude that Raffaele’s putative DNA was also not deposited innocently?

3) Do you acknowledge that Dr. Stefanoni used a different method of low copy number DNA than has ever appeared in the forensic DNA literature before? If so, then why should her results still be accepted as valid?

Hi Halides,

I hope you don't mind that I've numbered your queries, as it's easier than inserting all those "quote" tags. Thanks.

1) DNA cannot be dated, as Stefanoni readily admitted. However, the presence of AK's DNA on the knife handle with the victim's DNA on the same knife's blade, and the knife being found in AK's alibi's home, strongly indicates it was used in the murder. Also, the presence of AK's DNA in the nub under the handle where it attaches to the blade indicates more a stabbing than a cutting motion with the knife, resulting in DNA deeply embedded in the plastic there, which was unable to be removed after much energetic washing, further indicating tight gripping at that point while making a stabbing motion.

2) No, I don't acknowledge three innocent people deposited their DNA "innocently" on Meredith's bra clasp. However, I do acknowledge that Raffaele's DNA was found there, by both regular profile and Y-haplotype, and I don't think it was "innocently" deposited, as he had no relationship with her.

3) No, I don't acknowledge that Stefanoni's LCN method was "different ... than has ever appeared in the forensic DNA literature before." She used the standard equipment and got a standard profile. LCN profiles are commonly used now, especially in Europe, but more and more in the States.

Thanks.

T.

 

[Trigood]

I think it means cheese-like substance.


Certainly it could have been apples, but I think you don't usually put the "fibrous" parts of apples in a apple-pie.

Does it mean you agree with the estimation of 2-4 hours after the meal, witch is the consensus of various experts in Massei Motivation?

I don't agree with your characterization of the "consensus of various experts," at least as indicating the time by which there is food found irretrievably in the duodenum. Dr. Ronchi said 5, 6 hours, sometimes longer, as you may recall.

What I meant is that the TOD can only be determined plus/minus several hours based on stomach/intestinal contents, not plus/minus a half-hour, as some here are trying to assert.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Look again Charlie. In the photo you just posted the lamp cord is plugged into the power strip which appears to be plugged into the wall behind the bed. I believe there may be a later photo showing the lamp as you described after the investigators got through tossing the room.


My thought is that Meredith could have used the lamps earlier to photograph her vampire costume.
http://video.about.com/desktopvideo/Lighting--Effect-of-Direction.htm

4. Light from below is a stylized choice. Often used in horror and suspense films for it eerie effect.
You can achieve this setup by placing your source under the level of your subjects shoulders. For better results with this setup, place your light close to the subject, as its dramatic tone usually calls for strong shadows.​

The proof of this would be in her original photographs if they can be recovered.

You're right. It's plugged in, but it's on the floor with the reflector facing the wall.

I don't know why Meredith borrowed Amanda's lamp. It may be for the reason you suggest.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I don't agree with your characterization of the "consensus of various experts," at least as indicating the time by which there is food found irretrievably in the duodenum. Dr. Ronchi said 5, 6 hours, sometimes longer, as you may recall.

Fortunately I don't have to recall as I have the Motivation at hand right now , Massei quotes Ronchi:
He specified that three or four hours after consuming a meal, "there should already be some material in the duodenum ... and that it still should not have passed down"

What I meant is that the TOD can only be determined plus/minus several hours based on stomach/intestinal contents, not plus/minus a half-hour, as some here are trying to assert.

So you don't agree with the experts that estimate the ToD as 2-4 hours after the meal?