Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kestrel]

Good piece of evidence. So good that I would like to know the source, if you would be so kind.

Source is here.

In the statement to police, Tramontano said he and his girlfriend were awakened by noises in their apartment early on Sept. 1 or 2, 2007. When Tramontano looked down from his loft bed, he saw a young man going through his belongings. Tramontano chased the man downstairs as he tried to escape, but the front door was locked. The thief -- who Tramontano identified as Guede -- first used a chair to keep Tramontano at a distance, and then pulled out a switchblade knife. Guede, who escaped, had stolen a 5 euro bill and three credit cards.

It links Rudy to the burglary of an occupied home and the use of a knife to threaten others. In the same news article, Rudy is also linked to a burglary where a rock was thrown into an upstairs window to gain entry.

 

[RWVBWL]

Here are photos of the bloodstain above the bed:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/wall_above_bed.jpg
http://www.friendsofamanda.org/stain_above_bed_detail.jpg

Here is a hi-res photo of the cleaning cupboard:

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/cottage_cleaning_supplies_hi_res.jpg

Regarding Nadeau's description of how Meredith's body was found, it is not accurate. Meredith's left hand was not suspended in air. Her arm was bent, such that her left hand was near her face, as Nadeau says, but it was resting on a boot that was on the floor between her head and the wardrobe.

Also, there was a thin crust of dried blood covering the fingers of Meredith's right hand.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi Charlie Wilkes,
Thank you answering the question I posted, wondering if it is true, as Barbie Nadeau stated in "Angel Face", that Meredith Kercher's left hand was "suspended" in air after her death. I know that you know your stuff, so I do not even have to ask for references...

I will now revise my theory that IF Luciano Aviello's brother and a friend were involved in Miss Kercher's death, they had already left by 10:00 pm, when the cell phones connected with the other tower, and tossed them out of a car as they sped away, while Rudy Guede, if he did indeed try to help Meredith as she lay dying, somehow, in what I believe would be a perverted frame of mind, decided to sexually assaulted her shortly afterwards. And though Miss Allesandra Formica believes otherwise, it was Rudy Guede she saw that night hurrying away from the murder scene around 10:30 pm that night...

Thanks again for the help, Charlie!
RWVBWL

PS-The only problem I am having with the "Rudy Guede as a lone wolf" theory is that Miss Kercher's bedroom was too neat, I feel, for the fight that took her life to have occured involving only 1 perpatrator. Heck, from what I have read, there was a glass that still had water in it nearby...

 

[Magister]

Any evidence of Rudy previously showing violence to any female?

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm obviously ploughing a lonely furrow here
Any evidence of Rudy previously showing violence to any female?

There's anecdotal evidence that he was in the habit of bothering girls in bars and at parties, but he had no previous "form" (in terms of being reported to police or any sort of conviction). But I'd suggest that this, put together with his alleged threats of violence with a knife towards a man in a previous B&E, makes Guede a credible candidate for the crime.

 

[RWVBWL]

Source is here.

It links Rudy to the burglary of an occupied home and the use of a knife to threaten others. In the same news article, Rudy is also linked to a burglary where a rock was thrown into an upstairs window to gain entry.

_________________________________________________________________

Greetings Kestrel,
Reading your post and then your link to the ABC new article, this part stood out to me:

"In the statement to police, Tramontano said he and his girlfriend were awakened by noises in their apartment early on Sept. 1 or 2, 2007. When Tramontano looked down from his loft bed, he saw a young man going through his belongings. Tramontano chased the man downstairs as he tried to escape, but the front door was locked. The thief -- who Tramontano identified as Guede -- first used a chair to keep Tramontano at a distance, and then pulled out a switchblade knife. Guede, who escaped, had stolen a 5 euro bill and three credit cards."

I highlighted the front door was locked part, for this caught my eye.
How did this person enter and then, after being confronted, escape from Tramonano's home if the front door was locked?

I ask this, for I would assume that Miss Kercher, when she came home from visiting her English gal pals the night she was brutaly murdered, surely would have locked her own front door, especially knowing that she would be the only person home that night.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Chris C]

Let's hear that from a certified medical doctor and not just one who is "up to date" on certain scientific literature.

What you think the coroner is? He is the one that said 2 to 3 hours. If there was scientific literature that even suggested the stomach could take longer than 5 hours the prosecution would have used it. Instead they tried to say the stomach wasn't tied off and food slipped down the small intestines. That was their reason for saying the 2 to 3 hours was wrong.

 

[Magister]

There's anecdotal evidence that he was in the habit of bothering girls in bars and at parties, but he had no previous "form" (in terms of being reported to police or any sort of conviction). But I'd suggest that this, put together with his alleged threats of violence with a knife towards a man in a previous B&E, makes Guede a credible candidate for the crime.

Behaviour to be severely condemned certainly.
But a huge leap from there to murder and sexual assault surely?

 

[Justinian2]

Any evidence of Rudy previously showing violence to any female?

"Murder in Italy" by Candace Dempsey page 111:

American women blogging about their Italian study-abroad adventures described dancing in discos only in groups of other women, all of them watching out for one another, fending off the Italian guys who pinched and grabbed. Many said they were scared to walk alone after dark, even in upscale neighborhoods in Florence and Rome.

Zach Nowak, in The Little Blue Book, a "how-to" guide to Perugia life, wrote that Italian men are crude with foreign women because they believe the newcomers are looking for adventure, hoping to do things in Italy that they wouldn't do at home for fear of retribution. Having decided that foreign women are easy, the local men abandon all subtlety.

From what I've read, Guede was even more aggresive then the typical 'local men' just described.

 

[LondonJohn]

Behaviour to be severely condemned certainly.
But a huge leap from there to murder and sexual assault surely?

Agreed. But many (even most) men who sexually assault women build up to it with behaviour such as harassment, theft of underwear from washing lines, or "peeping tom" activities. In this regard, Guede seems to fit the bill, but of course this is speculative and in no way incriminating evidence.

 

[Magister]

Agreed. But many (even most) men who sexually assault women build up to it with behaviour such as harassment, theft of underwear from washing lines, or "peeping tom" activities. In this regard, Guede seems to fit the bill, but of course this is speculative and in no way incriminating evidence.

So we have anecdotal evidence that Rudy harassed women at parties.
But no previous violence towards them apparently.

 

[RWVBWL]

Any evidence of Rudy previously showing violence to any female?

_________________________________________________________________

Hi Magister,
I have never heard of any police or court reports of Rudy Guede showing violence to any female.

BUT I had read of this in Candace Dempsey's book "Murder in Italy" on page 224 and wish to add further to what Justinian2 wrote above:

When Rudy Guede's photo hit the TV screens, Zach Nowack immediately recognized him.
"I used to see him in the pubs. He's the classic Italian guy botherer. The kind of guy who goes up to a girl in a bar whom he doesn't know and he makes a move. She lets him know that she's not interested. He makes another move. She lets him know again. And he still keeps trying. At that point you're not just hitting on a girl, you're bothering a girl. Some guys are just too persisitant. This is not an African trait. It's an Italian guy trait. He was raised here, remember?"

I know lots of guys who are too persisitant with girls, but heck that doesn't make them commit murder though. If I recall correctly, while reading Perugia Shock, it seemed as if Frank Sfarzo couldn't believe that Rudy Guede murdered Miss Kercher. It was Mr. Sfarzo's early writings that helped turn me from a being a colpevolisti who believed the early police reports and theories to becoming an innocentisti...

Take it easy,
RWVBWL

PS-To my fellow innocentisti, the only thing I truly believe is that Rudy Guede DID indeed sexually assault Meredith Kercher,
for there is no reason, if he was "trully trying to save her", that he should have touched her genitalia.
I have been and am just throwing out ideas that Rudy Guede may not be the true killer of Meredith Kercher. But odds are, he most likely is...

 

[Magister]

"Murder in Italy" by Candace Dempsey page 111:



From what I've read, Guede was even more aggresive then the typical 'local men' just described.

I have spent a great deal of time in Italy. It is well known that Italian guys view foreign girls as easy game especially American and English.

 

[RWVBWL]

I have spent a great deal of time in Italy. It is well known that Italian guys view foreign girls as easy game especially American and English.

Hey Magister,
Coming from the beaches of Los Angeles, I see the same. It's the tourist and foreign student gals that are easy game, as you say, for they want to meet locals and have fun while they are here. I know it's like that on the beaches of Hawaii too, heck I bet it's the same the world over. Parents, watch your daughters! Just kidding!
RWVBWL

 

[Magister]

Hi RWVBWL
We seem to be in a minority of 2 here
Until the DNA investigations on Aviello and Florio are completed I am not convinced that Rudy was the murderer.
Also as you say not enough damage in Meredith's room for a lone attacker.

 

[Draca]

The vampire costuem was from the night before tghe murder.
It is hihgly unlikely that Amanda would have left the lamp that she needed to see at night in Meredith's room for 2 days.

The probable scenario is that AK and RS used it to search carefully on the floor during the clean up.
It has been proposed that Meredith pulled an earring out of Ak's ear, hence her blood, and she was scrambling on the floor with the lamp to search for it.

But you can alays dream up more fantastical ones.

AK and RS are not logical choices to have used the lamp because there is no trace of them in the bedroom. Amanda's blood was not found in MK's bedroom and the earring theory has no evidence to support it. There also wasn't any clean up conducted in the bedroom. I find the choice to blame two people who have left no signs of themselves in the bedroom the real fantasy.

 

[christianahannah]

Hey Magister,
Coming from the beaches of Los Angeles, I see the same. It's the tourist and foreign student gals that are easy game, as you say, for they want to meet locals and have fun while they are here. I know it's like that on the beaches of Hawaii too, heck I bet it's the same the world over. Parents, watch your daughters! Just kidding!
RWVBWL

I would question the "easy game" characterization, however, I know you mean well. From my experience people (guys and girls) are basically the same everywhere, they want to have fun and maybe a little romance while away. Rarely does it turn deadly.

 

[Magister]

This is the link I could not post earlier


http://alternatetheories-perugiamurder.blogspot.com/search?q=white+car

 

[Mary_H]

The vampire costuem was from the night before tghe murder.
It is hihgly unlikely that Amanda would have left the lamp that she needed to see at night in Meredith's room for 2 days.

The probable scenario is that AK and RS used it to search carefully on the floor during the clean up.
It has been proposed that Meredith pulled an earring out of Ak's ear, hence her blood, and she was scrambling on the floor with the lamp to search for it.

But you can alays dream up more fantastical ones.

I don't think so. Yours is about as fantastical as it gets.

 

[Antony]

(msg #9403)
PS-The only problem I am having with the "Rudy Guede as a lone wolf" theory is that Miss Kercher's bedroom was too neat, I feel, for the fight that took her life to have occured involving only 1 perpatrator. Heck, from what I have read, there was a glass that still had water in it nearby...

There's no reason to assume that Meredith would have put up a fight. She was confronted by an intruder armed with a knife. All the killer had to do was hold the knife to her throat and self-preservation would have dictated that she become completely passive in the hope that he would not harm an unresisting victim. She had no way of knowing that he would kill her anyway, but trying to fight him would certainly have seemed more dangerous in those frenzied last moments.

The killer could very easily have forced her into her bedroom, slammed her head against the wall and then slit her throat, possibly raping her first (it's not clear to me what the indications are that he molested her after inflicting the fatal wounds). There's no logical requirement for there to have been any kind of struggle, and the guilter mantra that there had to be more than one attacker is so much hot air.

Anyone know what Guede's and Meredith's respective heights and weights are?

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi RWVBWL
We seem to be in a minority of 2 here
Until the DNA investigations on Aviello and Florio are completed I am not convinced that Rudy was the murderer.
Also as you say not enough damage in Meredith's room for a lone attacker.

Hi once more Magister,
I agree, most people do not give Aviello's testimony much weight, since he is in prison and has, I believe, said things of this nature before. Personally, I know lots of guys who've been imprisoned, heck they are the trouble makers and know what's really going on down on the streets. Where better to get more information about a murder?

Anyways, getting caught up on the overnight JREF posts, I read a short while ago that you asked about this:
I am cross-posting here in case anyone wishes to join in discussion, if that is ok, MOD's...

Post 79: Alternate motive: Possibly a drug dealer was picking up his supply in front of the house and thought that Meredith was a police informant.

"Perugia may boast stunning views across the Umbrian hills and a world-class jazz festival held in frescoed palazzi, but it also has the highest number of overdose deaths per capita in Italy, as addicts move to be where the wholesalers are. North African dealers lurk on corners in the city centre and Nigerians control the suburbs, all under the watchful eye of the Calabrian 'Ndrangheta mafia."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/01/meredith-kercher-italy-perugia-students

"I was in the bathroom when it happened. One thing is certain, Amanda wasn't there."

"I fought with a man when I came out. She was not there." Rudy Guede's taped conversation while on the run in Germay.

Rudy Guede mentions in his German diary that when he arrived at the house that he saw a white car with lights on and a drug dealer that he recognized from Garibaldi street. We have heard from other students that the park near the house was a known area of drug dealing and drug use.

From Rudy's German diary:
"Then I headed for Meredith's house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30 p.m. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn't have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I
didn't make much of this and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guy's place but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard."

Whoever controls the supply of drugs controls the entire drug operation. Small time dealers are supplied with only a limited amount of drugs. They must make contact with their supplier to receive product to sell and then the supplier picks up the money. Hekuran Kokomani was caught with 8 grams of cocaine in February 2009. Who is he? A small time dealer or a supplier? Or as he says innocent because the drugs were not his?

8:01 p.m. Hekuran Kokomani's mobile phone record shows that he entered the area of the cottage at this time, where it had earlier that day placed him in the Assisi locality.

It is not a stretch to believe that possibly Rudy saw a drug dealer making a connection with his supplier right there in front of the house. At that same time, Meredith was arriving at the house from having dinner with her friends. We also know that her cellphone shows that she tried to call home at that very time.

8:56pm (20:56) (Meredith’s house) Meredith’s cell phone calls her mother but call is cut off before it is finished.

If Meredith was making a call home outside with her cellphone at the same time that a drug dealer was picking up his supply in the area of her house, did this drug dealer believe that Meredith was a police informant? Witnessing drug deals have been the reason that others have been murdered by drug gangs.

Link:
http://alternatetheories-perugiamur.../11/post-79-another-motive-possibly-drug.html

Interesting stuff to consider...
RWVBWL

PS-Magister, you beat me to it!