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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Machiavelli said:
Meredith obviously put her left hand on her wound after she was struck.
She didn't do the same with her right arm, because her arm was grabbed by someone.
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according to the prosecution, guede held one arm and sollecito the other.
 
Machiavelli said:
No but I always consider the rulings prior of the lastest as as part of the process. I bear in mind that the Micheli's report itself is part of the file in Amanda and Raffaele's trial, massai had it. I consider as well the subsequent second Rudy's trial which was dealt with by further eight judges.
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So we can assume that Massei would also rely on stomach contents to further pinpoint the time of death.
 
Justinian2 said:
Ha! You call it the Meredith Kercher case!

Whatever. The implication is that you do not see anything wrong imprisoning people, such as AK and RS, if there is even one in a thousand chance of their being actually guilty. Your implied dogma is that anybody that might be guilty of murder should be in jail. Mussolini's original Fascist documents show that Fascism also believed in the authority of government. This is Italy, is it not? Some of the disproven old beliefs still prevail.

Since the witch trials of Massachusetts, I have never seen a woman in America treated as horribly by the press, government and the people as Amanda has. In fact one has to go back to the 1950's in the deep south to find prejudice against accused black men to find anything comparable in America.
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Actually Italy's current justice system started with Napoleonic Code, then added facism, then added democratic style laws, without ever removing the other laws or how the system works. So basicly italy's judicial system is a melting pot of all those styles of law.
 
halides1 said:
This was discussed on September 15th on this thread. I think it is helpful to consider first what ILE did at the time and them to consider the appeal. For ILE not to test the stain while they were gathering evidence in a murder/sexual assault case is extremely mystifying. I suspect that Raffaele’s appeal mentions it partly to highlight how incomplete this investigation has been (no reference footprints from Laura or Filomena, for example). As another poster indicated, if it is Rudy’s semen, then it discredits anything he said that was used against Raffaele. This is a very good point, IMO. If it belongs to someone else entirely (not Giacomo), then one has to rethink the whole case.

There is one extra reason for us to discuss this at JREF. As Sherlock Holmes and lionking implied, there are doubtless pro-guilt posters who think that pro-innocence posters will never give up their belief that AK and RS are innocent. The putative semen stain is a good counterexample. I, for one, would totally rethink the case if it were RS’s, and I believe that LondonJohn said almost the same thing.
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Not only that. Buf if the stain isn't Meredith's boyfriend, Sollecito, or Guede then you have to wonder if Guede actually did tell that baby killer in prison that a guy was standing over meredith's body ejaculating. That is part of his story that is being entered into court as evidence to try and get that stain tested.
 
RoseMontague said:
One person could probably grab her with one hand and stab her with another.
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Yes, if you go back to discussing the dynamic of the attack in relation to the wounds found at the autopsy, I see it synthetically like this: Meredith was forced to suffer a certain number of acts of violence at the same time – which means: the attacker had to commit a series of actions, a number of which necessarily had to be done at the same time in some moments.
1. she was prevented from using both her arms both during the attack with the knife and during the sexual assault (attacker needs to engage one hand at least to block her arms)
2. she was forcedly prevented from screaming by covering her mouth (I don’t know if the attacker employed his/her right hand or left hand, but it is possible to infer it). She was prevented from screaming throughout a time of duration of violence, albeit she could scream at some point.
3. she was threatened with a knife (for which her hands show small cuts indicating a mild defensive response to a non mortal threat; attacker requires a hand to handle the knife)
4. she was stabbed with a knife twice, with movement that in both cases can be defined puncture, not slash, on the two different sides of her neck (attacker requires at least one hand in two separate moments)
5. she suffered a sexual violence while she was alive and she still had her trousers or not removed (attacker requires one hand for this)
6. she was immobilized in the room. There was no real struggle, she could not move from the beginning of the attack: this is obvious by the fact that almost all light objects are still in their place in the room.
7. she had the strap of her bra forced with hands and then cut with a knife.

Some of this points have obviously appear likely only if considered to happen at the same time, because of the necessity of the assailant to hold a weapon. If the attacker is using one hand to grab her mouth and one hand to assault her sexually, he as no hands left to hold the knife or to block her hands. If he holds the knife and rapes her with one hand, or uses the same hand to grab her arms, he can’t be safe she won’t scream, or won’t attempt a fight or an escape around the room. If he is threatening her with the knife, and at the same time attempts remove her trousers and rape her, the chances that while doing this he is able to block her hands - to the point of finding no biological matter on the tip of her nails – is quite reduced. Practically, in a lone-attacker scenario Meredith never screams (even if the grip on her mouth demonstrates her intention to scream), never attempts to fight and never moves, never attempts to defend herself from the blade with her hands, while the attacker manages to both rape her and constantly hold a knife.
I think that this dynamic – this system of shifts - appears unlikely at a first glance to the say the least
 
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RoseMontague said:
So we can assume that Massei would also rely on stomach contents to further pinpoint the time of death.
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We know the discussions about the stomach content that preceeded the court of Assize's decision. We know the hearing of Introna and the defence reports, and the discussion between experts that took place at the trial.
Introna and defence experts brough the known arguments but were not able to give a definitive proof to state for certain an alternative time of death.
There is anyway by principle no necessity for judges to pinpoint the time of death.
 
Machiavelli said:
Yes, if you go back to discussing the dynamic of the attack in relation to the wounds found at the autopsy, I see it synthetically like this: Meredith was forced to suffer a certain number of acts of violence at the same time – which means: the attacker had to commit a series of actions, a number of which necessarily had to be done at the same time in some moments.
1. she was prevented from using both her arms both during the attack with the knife and during the sexual assault (attacker needs to engage one hand at least to block her arms)
2. she was forcedly prevented from screaming by covering her mouth (I don’t know if the attacker employed his/her right hand or left hand, but it is possible to infer it). She was prevented from screaming throughout a time of duration of violence, albeit she could scream at some point.
3. she was threatened with a knife (for which her hands show small cuts indicating a mild defensive response to a non mortal threat; attacker requires a hand to handle the knife)
4. she was stabbed with a knife twice, with movement that in both cases can be defined puncture, not slash, on the two different sides of her neck (attacker requires at least one hand in two separate moments)
5. she suffered a sexual violence while she was alive and she still had her trousers or not removed (attacker requires one hand for this)
6. she was immobilized in the room. There was no real struggle, she could not move from the beginning of the attack: this is obvious by the fact that almost all light objects are still in their place in the room.
7. she had the strap of her bra forced with hands and then cut with a knife.

Some of this points have obviously appear likely only if considered to happen at the same time, because of the necessity of the assailant to hold a weapon. If the attacker is using one hand to grab her mouth and one hand to assault her sexually, he as no hands left to hold the knife or to block her hands. If he holds the knife and rapes her with one hand, or uses the same hand to grab her arms, he can’t be safe she won’t scream, or won’t attempt a fight or an escape around the room. If he is threatening her with the knife, and at the same time attempts remove her trousers and rape her, the chances that while doing this he is able to block her hands - to the point of finding no biological matter on the tip of her nails – is quite reduced. Practically, in a lone-attacker scenario Meredith never screams (even if the grip on her mouth demonstrates her intention to scream), never attempts to fight and never moves, never attempts to defend herself from the blade with her hands, while the attacker manages to both rape her and constantly hold a knife.
I think that this dynamic – this system of shifts - appears unlikely at a first glance to the say the least
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Her arms were not held when she had defensive wounds and her arms were not held when she brought her hand up to her wound. She could have been attacked from the from the front and collapsed then stabbed from the back with the same knife in the same hand. If there was indeed a scream then her mouth was not covered as well. I just see a lot of holes in your theory saying how unlikely it would be to be just one person. It seems to me a lot of the evidence you present supports a lone attacker scenario.
 
Chris C said:
Actually Italy's current justice system started with Napoleonic Code, then added facism, then added democratic style laws, without ever removing the other laws or how the system works. So basicly italy's judicial system is a melting pot of all those styles of law.
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Crhis what are you talking about. Do you know anything about those "styles of law"?

Italy was the first region where death penalty was abolished in modern history, in the years ariund 1790's. Italy's criminal codes have been a basis in some parts of judicial culture in the western civilization, like in Australia:

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_law_of_Australia

(..) Queensland
The Criminal Code Act 1899 (Qld) [4] is the primary instrument for the source of criminal law in Queensland. The Criminal Code Act was largely the product of Sir Samuel Walker Griffith, then Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Queensland (and formerly Premier).

The Griffith Code borrowed large elements of the Italian Penal Code 1889 (also known as the Zanardelli Code after its primary supporter) which Griffith described as "in many respects the most complete and perfect Penal Code in existence" and which was translated from Italian by Griffith himself. Griffith also took inspiration from the New York Penal Code 1881. The Griffith Code was later adopted, with some changes, in other parts of the Commonwealth of Nations including Nigeria, Papua New Guinea and Nauru.

The Criminal Code of Queensland has naturally been the subject of further legislative revision and also judicial interpretation and precedent. A generally regarded reference for accurate annotated information on the body of case law associated with the Queensland Criminal Code is Carter's Criminal Law of Queensland which is often used by legal scholars and practitioners more heavily than the Code itself.

One key feature of the Criminal Code is the formal absence of the common law element of mens rea. The Criminal Code provides expressly that a mental element of an offence will be expressly provided for in the provision creating the offence. The practical effect of this stipulation is however not great, as most offences create a mental element of some sort, including recklessness or malice or intent. (...)
 
Machiavelli said:
We know the discussions about the stomach content that preceeded the court of Assize's decision. We know the hearing of Introna and the defence reports, and the discussion between experts that took place at the trial.
Introna and defence experts brough the known arguments but were not able to give a definitive proof to state for certain an alternative time of death.
There is anyway by principle no necessity for judges to pinpoint the time of death.
Click to expand...

Yet Massei uses Nara's scream and the park bench gentleman's testimony to discount the defense arguments about the unusual cell phone activity, effectively pinpointing the time of death later to fit these two witnesses. In essence he is pinpointing a time of death, is he not?
 
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RoseMontague said:
Her arms were not held when she had defensive wounds
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Her wounds are not defensive wounds, they are wound in response of a threat, not in response to an attack. They are almost irrelevant. Defensive wounds on a violent attack look very different.
Look, just think about the list of data of the autposy picture, alone on your own, and reflect taking your time. Think about it all, think about it serioulsy.
 
RoseMontague said:
Yet Massei uses Nara's scream and the park bench gentleman's testimony to discount the prosecution arguments about the unusual cell phone activity, effectively pinpointing the time of death later to fit these two witnesses. In essence he is pinpointing a time of death, is he not?
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The court only makes one decision - legitimate, and autonomous - they decide to believe Antonio Curatolo. This only element determines their final assessment for the time of death. They decide Curatolo's testimony prevails on Introna's arguments on this particular, not fundamental point.
The defensive argument of the phone being moved at 22:13 is not dismissed because of Nara or Curatolo, it is dismissed because it's inconsistent by itself.
The pinpointing of the time of death only comes out as a consequence for the decision to believe Curatolo. The court doesn't need this element. They could have well placed the time of death around 22:30 and leave their verdict unaffected, but they decided not to do it merely by their choice.
 
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Machiavelli said:
Her wounds are not defensive wounds, they are wound in response of a threat, not in response to an attack. They are almost irrelevant. Defensive wounds on a violent attack look very different.
Look, just think about the list of data of the autposy picture, alone on your own, and reflect taking your time. Think about it all, think about it serioulsy.
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I rely on humor to make a point on occasion but when it comes to making a decision on guilt or innocence I do take the evidence seriously.
I would bet you do the same and at this point we are not in agreement. That does not mean that either one of us is being disingenuous here. It is a complicated case and I see information I was not aware of quite often and get new perspectives from people like you daily.
 
Machiavelli said:
The court only makes one decision - legitimate, and autonomous - they decide to believe Antonio Curatolo. This only element determines their final assessment for the time of death. They decide Curatolo's testimony prevails on Introna's arguments on this particular, not fundamental point.
The defensive argument of the phone being moved at 22:13 is not dismissed because of Nara or Curatolo, it is dismissed because it's inconsistent by itself.
The pinpointing of the time of death only comes out as a consequence for the decision to believe Curatolo. The court doesn't need this element. They could have well placed the time of death around 22:30 and leave their verdict unaffected, but they decided not to do it merely by their choice.
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Many thanks for that admission. He also takes Curatolo over the stomach contents argument, which is the first point of this particular discussion we were having.
 
Machiavelli said:
Crhis what are you talking about. Do you know anything about those "styles of law"?

Italy was the first region where death penalty was abolished in modern history, in the years ariund 1790's. Italy's criminal codes have been a basis in some parts of judicial culture in the western civilization, like in Australia:


Read up on italy's justice system. Nothing i said was wrong. Just because Italy has abolished the death penality doesn't mean they have changed their justice system. They have just changed a portion of the punishment part.
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Read up on italy's justice system. Nothing i said was wrong. Just because Italy has abolished the death penality doesn't mean they have changed their justice system. They have just changed a portion of the punishment part. That would be like the US abolishing the death penality and saying ok we have a whole new justice system.
 
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Anybody know what "on topic" means?

Is it:

1) Any discussion of the Amanda Knox case?
2) Discussion of the evidence of the case?
3) Discussion of the reasons that Amanda Knox is in jail (bias, mistakes, deliberate fabrications of evidence or motive)
4) Discussion of the effects of the case on Amanda, RS and their families

I thought it was 2, 3 and 4.

It is not useless mocking of another's posts.
It is not banter about self or others.
It is probably not fallacies; especially ad homs.

Is it anything else?

Reply by PM please. While this is on-topic, a discussion of same is probably off-topic.
 
Machiavelli said:
Her wounds are not defensive wounds, they are wound in response of a threat, not in response to an attack. They are almost irrelevant. Defensive wounds on a violent attack look very different.
Look, just think about the list of data of the autposy picture, alone on your own, and reflect taking your time. Think about it all, think about it serioulsy.
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One additional point. The defensive wounds violent or not at that point indicate that her arms were not being held at that point, which was the point I made with my comment. At least one of her arms was also not being held when she brought her hand to her wound. When exactly were both arms held by two different people?
 
It is known that Meredith put up a struggle by the light defensive wounds she received.
But IF it was a lone wolf attacker one would expect physical evidence of a desperate fight, certainly in the early stages, before she was overpowered.
Meredith was not tied up nor knocked unconscious.
I believe the lone wolf scenario to be the weakest link in the case of the Innocentisti .
 
Magister said:
It is known that Meredith put up a struggle by the light defensive wounds she received.
But IF it was a lone wolf attacker one would expect physical evidence of a desperate fight, certainly in the early stages, before she was overpowered.
Meredith was not tied up nor knocked unconscious.
I believe the lone wolf scenario to be the weakest link in the case of the Innocentisti .
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how many bruises prior to the 2 stab wounds and the slashing wound would u consider light defensive wounds?
also rudy could have had an accomplice, we don't know because they didn't bother getting control dna samples from everyone or testing a semen stain.
 
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