Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Malkmus]

daydreamer,

You can disguise URLs. Dan O. posted a timeline here, or you could search on his username. The timelines of those who favor guilt and those who favor innocence will be very different.

The PMF "comprehensive timeline" is riddled with so many factual errors that I stopped counting them halfway through. As far as I know Dan O.'s timeline doesn't have anything in it that we know to be false.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Sorry, SN, I don't follow. Could you clarify?

Sorry about that, Mary - I was alluding to Lover of Zion's propensity to er...erm...well, ya know...

I just felt it fitted perfectly NOT with Amanda but with the actual person writing it....

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>
I don't see how this passage shows Amanda actually answers your question above. It describes an event but gives no indication of whether she knew her things were not private in a jail cell. I would think any young american growing up watching all the crime shows on TV could hardly be unaware of your loss of privacy expectations in a prison setting.

Isn't an inmate's mail even read before they can send it out or receive it?

Sorry I missed this post before I answered Machiavelli's, Danceme. I think some of my answers to Machiavelli covered this one, though.

My point, with which Machiavelli vigorously disagrees, is that Amanda's writings were not completely subject to search and seizure in an unlimited way; otherwise no warrant would have been necessary to obtain them. Hence, it is unlikely anybody told her to expect them to be taken. If she had had every reason to expect them to be confiscated (based on full disclosure by prison officials or her lawyer), then she might not have written down the names of her intimate partners.

 

[Mary_H]

Sorry about that, Mary - I was alluding to Lover of Zion's propensity to er...erm...well, ya know...

I just felt it fitted perfectly NOT with Amanda but with the actual person writing it....

LOL, SN! I was afraid you meant me.

 

[Mary_H]

I already told everything. I told you Amanda gave the diary, I told you they needed a mandate and, had Amanda refused to give her the diary, they would have got it with a mandate in the afternoon. If you call this procedure "privacy", then she was granted her privacy, and you should be satisfied.

Several months ago, on Candace's blog, you told me the concept of face-saving doesn't exist among the magistrates in Italy.

I think we just won't ever "get" each other.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Just as they were able to tell that Meredith's body was moved sometime after she had died.

Sounds like an interesting book Charlie, I may check its availability.

It is a useful book to have on hand.

Where did anyone claim that livor showed Meredith's body being moved after death?

 

[colonelhall]

Kevin Lowe: "I think I've now shown that practically everything in your post is wrong."

I certainly think that you've shown us something. However, I won't say what, for fear of getting yet another post transferred.

By the way, I was quite impressed with those earlier posts that seemed to suggest that you don't quite have the grasp of this subject that you think you have.

 

[Machiavelli]

I think I've now shown that practically everything in your post is wrong.

You have said everything in my post is wrong.
Essentially the same thing I said of yours.
Now we can say we know what we think of each other's ideas.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

You have said everything in my post is wrong.
Essentially the same thing I said of yours.
Now we can say we know what we think of each other's ideas.

I think the difference is that we've been over this ground very thoroughly here already, and we've established the verifiable facts of the case much better than you appear to have managed.

Look, it's a pain in the backside but I guess we could do it all again for you. One thing though: If we show you chapter and verse to prove that there was undigested cheese in Meredith's stomach, that she consumed her small to moderate sized meal of pizza between 18:00 and 18:30 and that she drank no alcohol with her meal will you then accept that Meredith died before 22:00?

If not, what possible evidence could make you believe that Meredith died before 22:00? That is not a rhetorical question. I'm asking for you to state what, if any, facts you would accept as falsifying the PMF cult doctrine with regard to Meredith's time of death.

 

[Mary_H]

Just as they were able to tell that Meredith's body was moved sometime after she had died.

This was not argued in the motivations. In fact, the coroner used the fact that Meredith's body had been covered immediately after death to determine the rate of cooling:

"...the body was covered by a duvet and was thus placed in a thermally protected microclimate..." (page 131)

 

[Danceme]

It is a useful book to have on hand.

Where did anyone claim that livor showed Meredith's body being moved after death?

It was in the Micheli report. There was much written on the lividity in her shoulder which showed she was not in the position she was found when she died.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

This was not argued in the motivations. In fact, the coroner used the fact that Meredith's body had been covered immediately after death to determine the rate of cooling:

"...the body was covered by a duvet and was thus placed in a thermally protected microclimate..." (page 131)

Got a cite for this one Danceme?

This looks like it might be another bit of non-Massei embroidery made up to sell the idea of "staging".

 

[Chris C]

Apparently for you. How much of my time are you going to waste? I explained everything and you don't accept you are wrong. I said already Knox won a case against those who published them, not those who possessed thm nor those who released them.
And the trial she won was not on a criminal offence, it was a damage award, a contantion between private interests. The fact that it is "ok" for the public to read what she says is evident in that the book by Fiorenza Sarznini is still available and still published.

Then who released the photocopies? If it was so legal for the press to get hold of them, then why has no one stepped forward and said I gave them to the press?

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

It was in the Micheli report. There was much written on the lividity in her shoulder which showed she was not in the position she was found when she died.

Are you sure about this? Micheli notes that Meredith's bra was found at her feet, but the strap was soaked with blood. He seems to think that would have taken some time to occur, but I think a sharp defense lawyer might counter that fabric in a pool of blood will soak it up more or less immediately.

Micheli also refers to photos 268 and 770. I don't have photo 770, but I have photo 268, and I can see what he is referring to - a stripe on Meredith's back, showing where the blood-soaked bra strap was in contact with her shoulder.

I am not aware that Micheli discusses lividity. If he does, I'd be very interested to see the exact reference.

If Meredith's body was moved after her death, but its position was unchanged, I'm not sure lividity would reveal that. The situations I know of are a little different. The classic example is where a guy kills his wife and then seats her behind the wheel of a car and pushes it over a cliff or off a bridge. But the coroner realizes she was in a prone position (i.e., in the trunk of the car) when livor set in.

 

[RWVBWL]

Greeting Charlie Wilkes, Kevin Lowe and others...
I have always been curious about something that I had read a long ago on Peruga Shock, wherein Frank Sfarzo had discussed Meredith Kercher having a 0.43 BAC.

Today I noticed that you both have written that Miss Kercher didn't drink any alcohol with her dinner that night. Previously I had just assumed that she must have had some leftover alcohol in her system from the night before.

However, I would like to share something with you that I re-read last night in Barbie Nadeau's book "Angel Face" on pages 161 +162:
" In the days right after the murder, there was talk of a Satanic ritual because of the Halloween paraphernalia found at the girls' villa and Raf's apartment. That hypothesis was soon discounted, however, and replaced with the idea of sex games gone wrong in a fog of drugs and alcohol. Unfortunately, no alcohol or drug testing was done immediately on Amanda, Raf, or Rudy, and Meredith's initial toxicology reports showed that she had had no more than a glass of wine. (Later toxicology reports that she may have been very drunk, but the prosecution wrote those off as bad forensics - they said her body had not been stored properly, so the blood alcohol levels were due to fermentation, not intoxication. As for Amanda and Raf, when they were finally arrested, on Nov. 6, only the slightest unidentifiable trace of narcotics was found thru hair samples - not even enough to identify the substance.)

Anyways, I posted this for 2 reasons, even after re-reading JREF page #107:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6211917
since I had always been under the assumption that Miss Kercher had a 0.43 BAC due to having a glass of wine at some point in the day or still having some alcohol in her system from the night before, which would say to me that she must have been really, really drunk on Halloween or else her body just took forever to get rid of the alcohol in her system. With that thought in mind, I wondered if maybe her digestion was slower that normal too, which directly contradicts what many here on the innocentisti side, (of which I am a member too), have been recently discussing.

But "Angel Face" helped me put that idea to rest, for it just seems like another mistake was made,
in this case Miss Kercher's body was improperly stored after her death...

Another note that I would like to mention is from the passage that I just quoted from "Angel Face".
It does, in my mind at least, lay to rest some of today's discussion that AK and RF were high on coke at the time, unless 5 days is too long after a murder happened to test positive for that particular party substance...

Have a good one all,
RWVBWL

 

[Dan O.]

The PMF "comprehensive timeline" is riddled with so many factual errors that I stopped counting them halfway through. As far as I know Dan O.'s timeline doesn't have anything in it that we know to be false.

My timeline isn't perfect. For instance, I included:

12:35 Postal Police inspector claims to have arrived at cottage.

The fact is that the Inspector made no such claim at 12:35 on November 2nd. The claim was actually made over a year later when he testified in court.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Greeting Charlie Wilkes, Kevin Lowe and others...
I have always been curious about something that I had read a long ago on Peruga Shock, wherein Frank Sfarzo had discussed Meredith Kercher having a 0.43 BAC.

I'm not 100% sure on this one but my recollection was that it was not a 0.43% blood alcohol content, which is very high indeed, but a 0.43% stomach alcohol content. That could be due to fermentation, which is I believe the currently accepted theory, or possibly due to Meredith having a small drink of wine or something similar very shortly before she was murdered.

However because 0.43 sounds like a BAC value people get muddled and think that Meredith was well sloshed when she died, which is false.

Her BAC was not noticeably elevated, unless I'm forgetting something.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Dan O.,
Your Timeline is the best 1 that I have seen come from the innocentisti side to date!
I too have it bookmarked, as all who follow this brutal murder case should do too, IMHO.
Excellant job sir!
RWVBWL

 

[RWVBWL]

I'm not 100% sure on this one but my recollection was that it was not a 0.43% blood alcohol content, which is very high indeed, but a 0.43% stomach alcohol content. That could be due to fermentation, which is I believe the currently accepted theory, or possibly due to Meredith having a small drink of wine or something similar very shortly before she was murdered.

However because 0.43 sounds like a BAC value people get muddled and think that Meredith was well sloshed when she died, which is false.

Her BAC was not noticeably elevated, unless I'm forgetting something.

Hi Kevin Lowe,
Though the PMF crew will disagree, I enjoy your intelligent debate here on JREF as we, on both sides, discuss what we believe happened that night when Meredith Kercher had her life brutally taken away. Keep up the excellant work, for I, among many I am sure, have learned A LOT from what you write of...
RWVBWL

PS-You're from Queensland?
That's a surfer's mecca?
Kirra, D'bah, Burliegh Heads, etc!

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Hi Kevin Lowe,
Though the PMF crew will disagree, I enjoy your intelligent debate here on JREF as we, on both sides, discuss what we believe happened that night when Meredith Kercher had her life brutally taken away. Keep up the excellant work, for I, among many I am sure, have learned A LOT from what you write of...
RWVBWL

PS-You're from Queensland?
That's a surfer's mecca?
Kirra, D'bah, Burliegh Heads, etc!

Thanks for the kind words!

Currently I'm not posting anything that might serve to identify me to the nutbags, sorry. Solange among others seems very interested in attempts to pin down my identity, and there have been allegations of harassment by guilters directed at anti-guilt speakers in the past. So I can't really talk about geography or my hobbies currently.

Also I'd like to get it on the permanent record that someone has copied at least one of my JREF forum posts verbatim to the Perugia Shock blog's comments section. Whoever is doing that, I would prefer that you didn't, and if you absolutely must then please give credit to me and link back to the original post here. Technically it's copyright infringement, but more importantly it's bad manners.