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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Narcissistic personality disorder
(NPD) is a personality disorder. Narcissism or narcissist personality style is a trait of personality, not necesarily a disorder, and is not "diagnosed".

" Quote:
The narcissism in Amanda's personality style is simply overt and obvious, not to me but to thousands of observers including specialists, but this is an obvious quality in her relational performance and doesn't correspond to a precise clinical diagnosis. However the clinical diagnosis of narcissistic disorder is defined based on the perception of others regading the empathic capabilities of the individual, to his/her capability to adjust and mitigate the perception of his self importance to what perceived by others and to his/her ability to satisfy others needs. I never met somebody ho felt Amanda's writings as humanly satisfactory, so probably she would have a negative relational score among the average population. "



If a lot of people whom she related with perceived her trait as negative or disfunctional.
May I add that these people would have to be in close contact with said narcissist or have read extensively about her and her writings.
In this I am in concurrence with the above exposition of narcisistic disorder.
 
Hendricks case

CW,

I think I read about that very case when researching ToD and stomach contents. Specific names were redacted but it stated 3 children ate identical pizza meals at a specifically known time. It sure seems like it had to be that case. What is the name of that book - Unnatural Death? It looks fascinating.

By coincidence I was just now looking into the same case. Here is the first page of a two-page letter.
 
Frank correctly spots that Raffaele Sollecito's diary is not exactly "badly written", it is not a case of spontaneous writing with casaul grammar misakes due to poor control of the language. The language used by Raffaele is artificial and purposedly crooked even in the grammar structures and lexial choices. Raffaele hasn't a poor grammar control and is perfectly able to express thought immediately and unambiguously - as shown by his writing style in his blog page - but in this writing he follows the crooked purpose to explain his position while appearing spontaneous, but avoiding to make clear details, issues and ambiguities.


This is why I asked you way back on page 194, "Do you think there is any truth to the rumors that the defendants' lawyers instructed them to keep prison diaries?"

To which you responded: "Why are you making those questions? They have nothing to do with the theory that a prosecutor may have orchestrated a fake test and a leak of sexually-related material in order to influence the public."

If it is customary in Italy for lawyers to have their clients keep prison diaries for "the crooked purpose to explain his position while appearing spontaneous," then it is reasonable to assume the prosecutors would know prisoners are writing things about the case in their diaries. Under those circumstances, the prosecutors might devise a plan to manipulate the prisoner into writing about specific subject matters in their diaries, e.g., their sex lives.

On the other hand, if it is customary and Amanda's lawyers instructed her to keep a diary but did not warn her it could be subject to seizure, then they were remiss.
 
No, it is not a violation for anyone. But here you are not talking about "evidence seized by the prosecution", you are talking about photocopies. The press - or anyone- can browse though photocopies in possession of a lawyer or a policeman? Obviously they can. Moreover, the diary was, at the time not, legally seized by the prosecution. It was handed over by Amanda herself, who complied to a request from the judicial police. So its first legal qualification was probably not even as "evidence" at all, but simply statements that she accepted to release to the police.

So what about the diary that knox had in her room(apartment) that was seized by the prosecution. That was released to the press also. So your saying its ok for the prosecution to hand out copies of evidence. However, its not ok for the coroner to do the same. Considering that Knox won her case in court against those that published her diary, apparently it wasn't ok for the prosecution to release them.
 
Hello everyone, this is my first post here. Sorry to jump in the middle of this topic. I have been reading this thread for quite a while as well as other forums. I enjoy hearing from both sides of the issue and then making my own decisions. Just a little background about me: I am a 62 year old engineer from Ohio, as such I am more "data driven" in making my decisions. I probably have more questions than answers and it seems most people here are more informed than I. I hope my questions don't become too tedious. I have input on topics discussed previously but it looks like I need to submit 15 entries before I can reference a URL or attach an image. My first question to the group is; Does anyone have link to a good timeline? I have the one from PMF but it leans heavily against RS and AK.
 
Charlie Wilkens,

I asked whether you read it entirely because right those pages don't contradict at all my ideas and do not support Kevin Lowes claims. For a paradox, that pathologist worked on stomah samples, ot on stomach emptying times (even less on the most aleatory and variable difference between time of beginning and finishing of the emptying of stomach, a time that can be extremely short).
Put this in contrast with the findings decaring the advanced state of digestion in Meredith's stomach, with the main meal being already entirely dissolved.
Moreover, the time of the last meal in your story is known.
Moreover, the conditions of the kids after the meal were known, and the author is warning that in other cases, where intense stress or situations of fear are included, the time of digestion is slowed considerably, more than one hour.
Moreover, the kids did not assume alchohol and the mode of assumption of food was known (a single meal at once, relation of the kind of meal with their digestion issues known). Moreover, in the specific case the stage of digestion was checked on multiple victims who had their meal at the same time. Moreover, a variation in time of digestion of less than one hour is considerd normal by the author. And, not to be forgotten, the time of death shortly after death was sensitive to the case, in a way in which this case is not. The idea that 23:30 is needed to Massei is a definitive misleading mirage. The Massei reconstruction is not the same thing as the case angainst Amanda and Raffaele, and the appeal is not an assessment on Massei's narrative.
Kevin Lowe's idea rests ultimately on the introduction of other assumtions that he inserts on his own by his belief, like: that Curatolo could possibly provide an alibi for some time frame, that at 21:30 both Amanda and Raffaele may have an alibi, that death occurred before 22:00, that Meredith was not in a frightening or stressful situation since before, that the time of death can be assessed with less than an hour error, that the time of the meal was known...
 
Chris C said:
Considering that Knox won her case in court against those that published her diary, apparently it wasn't ok for the prosecution to release them.

Apparently for you. How much of my time are you going to waste? I explained everything and you don't accept you are wrong. I said already Knox won a case against those who published them, not those who possessed thm nor those who released them.
And the trial she won was not on a criminal offence, it was a damage award, a contantion between private interests. The fact that it is "ok" for the public to read what she says is evident in that the book by Fiorenza Sarznini is still available and still published.
 
CW,

I think I read about that very case when researching ToD and stomach contents. Specific names were redacted but it stated 3 children ate identical pizza meals at a specifically known time. It sure seems like it had to be that case. What is the name of that book - Unnatural Death? It looks fascinating.

It's called "Unnatural Death: Confessions of a Medical Examiner" by Michael Baden. I'll bet you could get it on Amazon. It's only a little over 200 pages, a quick read, but one of those books you consult again and again if you're interested in crime.

It's pretty common for someone to kill their spouse and try to make it look like it happened later than it really did, and digestive evidence is one of the ways those guys get caught. Livor is another one... people don't realize that red blood cells settle out, and if you move someone six hours after you kill them, the coroner will be able to tell.
 
I left several threads suspended, not just this point.

I can give the obvious answer that I have no idea of what Amanda knew, because I'm not inside her mind. I can equally state that responsability is a concept which may not just depend on what Amanda knows or thinks. This is why the example of an accident in a left driving country. One may be responsible also for knowing or not knowing things, but even while not knowing things in advance one may be responsible just for taking or not taking precautions, for what an action may cause. And the concept of "responsability" is not the only one implied and not necessaryli comes into play, in cases of normal mistakes we do in life we rest on the sheer concept of cause and effect. Amanda's diary and her persnal taste of what to write in it, are the necessary cause to what was published.

There isn't an explicit rule by which specifically her writings are subject to confiscantion, in fact they were not confiscated, they are phisically still her property, but they can be seized and are subject to investigation, because Amanda is a formal suspect. Obviously the police needs a mandate to search her belongings, but not necessarily a prosecutor's mandate. Her correspondence can be equally subjected to reading and investigation, but not to censorship.

The matter of the publication of Amanda's writing does not rest on rules and regulations. There is a more general rule, a general principle, which is whatever a suspect says outside the court in extra judicial context, even before thye became suspects, can be considered as statement and is equally assessed by judges just as statements given in court. This general principle is pervasive in the Italian system, like the right of defendants to lie, like the left driving in the UK. Inmates might well know it, Amanda might well have known her writings could be read, as well as she knew her private conversations in prison were recorded. Anyway this is a principle, not a specific regulation.


Again, if Amanda's expectation of privacy were not reasonable, then no mandate would have been required for police (or whoever) to just come into her cell and start taking things. It is apparent no one informed her of the public nature of her writings because, in fact, they were not public.

This is another example of how Amanda's right to an attorney was not honored. If a warrant were to be served, it is most likely it would have been served to her attorneys, who then would have had a chance to object to it. But because Amanda was not protected by counsel, she allowed the seizure of something she did not want seized, or at least of something she did not want in the headlines.

The pervasive principle you describe is paradoxical because it expresses utter disrespect for prisoners' rights. The famously humane Italian system gives each defendant the right to three trials, does not allow the defendant to waive his right to attorney, provides for short sentences, no death penalty, and the prisons are pretty nice.

Meanwhile, if the police want to take a prisoner's diary and leak it to the media, the attitude of the people seems to be, "That's what you get for being in prison." From my outsider's point of view, it looks like the purpose of this particular "pervasive principle" is to titillate and provide cautionary tales to the masses who are smart enough not to get themselves in the same predicament. Otherwise known as social engineering.

"Her correspondence can be equally subjected to reading and investigation, but not to censorship." Gee, what a relief. I am sure prisoners are eternally grateful for that anomalous bit of political generosity.
 
Chris C said:
So what about the diary that knox had in her room(apartment) that was seized by the prosecution. That was released to the press also. So your saying its ok for the prosecution to hand out copies of evidence. However, its not ok for the coroner to do the same.

This is spun and incomplete but more or less there is a correct concept: not all evidence is the same. Coroner's findings are actual medical document and the information is protected by the law. Moreover, the judges may put under secret parts of the evidence at their discretion.
 
So what your saying is its not a violation of chain of custody for the Press to sit down and go through evidence seized by the prosecution. Then take photocopies of her diaries and release this information to the public.

It's called "Unnatural Death: Confessions of a Medical Examiner" by Michael Baden. I'll bet you could get it on Amazon. It's only a little over 200 pages, a quick read, but one of those books you consult again and again if you're interested in crime.

It's pretty common for someone to kill their spouse and try to make it look like it happened later than it really did, and digestive evidence is one of the ways those guys get caught. Livor is another one... people don't realize that red blood cells settle out, and if you move someone six hours after you kill them, the coroner will be able to tell.

Just as they were able to tell that Meredith's body was moved sometime after she had died.

Sounds like an interesting book Charlie, I may check its availability.
 
Mary H said:
Again, if Amanda's expectation of privacy were not reasonable, then no mandate would have been required for police (or whoever) to just come into her cell and start taking things.

This logical passage makes no sense. You will always go on creating endless chain of inconsistent deductions on your own in order to feed your belief. No matter what reality looks like.
No law depends on Amanda's expectation. And "need for mandate" does not equate to "privacy" nor to "reasonale expectation for privacy". Why don't you just admit you finished the arguments and you are wrong?
 
Hello everyone, this is my first post here. Sorry to jump in the middle of this topic. I have been reading this thread for quite a while as well as other forums. I enjoy hearing from both sides of the issue and then making my own decisions. Just a little background about me: I am a 62 year old engineer from Ohio, as such I am more "data driven" in making my decisions. I probably have more questions than answers and it seems most people here are more informed than I. I hope my questions don't become too tedious. I have input on topics discussed previously but it looks like I need to submit 15 entries before I can reference a URL or attach an image. My first question to the group is; Does anyone have link to a good timeline? I have the one from PMF but it leans heavily against RS and AK.


"daydreamin' and I'm dreamin' of you...." ;)

We love data-driven people here!

There might be some time lines in Candace Dempsey's blog pages on the Seattle P-I, but I don't know exactly where.
 
Mary H said:
Meanwhile, if the police want to take a prisoner's diary and leak it to the media, the attitude of the people seems to be, "That's what you get for being in prison." From my outsider's point of view, it looks like the purpose of this particular "pervasive principle" is to titillate and provide cautionary tales to the masses who are smart enough not to get themselves in the same predicament. Otherwise known as social engineering.

Ahem.. do you think guests of the US prisons enjoy personal privacy of their correspondance, writings and readings?

Rather than "that's what you get for being in prison" in the case of Amanda's diary, the first thing is "that's what you wrote". The publication of that diary is quite the consequence she wrote that one and not a different text.
 
This logical passage makes no sense. You will always go on creating endless chain of inconsistent deductions on your own in order to feed your belief. No matter what reality looks like.
No law depends on Amanda's expectation. And "need for mandate" does not equate to "privacy" nor to "reasonale expectation for privacy". Why don't you just admit you finished the arguments and you are wrong?


Then why, Machiavelli, did the police not just go into Amanda's cell and take her diary?
 
brilliant disguise

Hello everyone, this is my first post here. Sorry to jump in the middle of this topic. I have been reading this thread for quite a while as well as other forums. I enjoy hearing from both sides of the issue and then making my own decisions. Just a little background about me: I am a 62 year old engineer from Ohio, as such I am more "data driven" in making my decisions. I probably have more questions than answers and it seems most people here are more informed than I. I hope my questions don't become too tedious. I have input on topics discussed previously but it looks like I need to submit 15 entries before I can reference a URL or attach an image. My first question to the group is; Does anyone have link to a good timeline? I have the one from PMF but it leans heavily against RS and AK.

daydreamer,

You can disguise URLs. Dan O. posted a timeline here, or you could search on his username. The timelines of those who favor guilt and those who favor innocence will be very different.
 
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Ahem.. do you think guests of the US prisons enjoy personal privacy of their correspondance, writings and readings?

Rather than "that's what you get for being in prison" in the case of Amanda's diary, the first thing is "that's what you wrote". The publication of that diary is quite the consequence she wrote that one and not a different text.


I am not familiar with how it works in U.S. prisons, but if it is the same as in Amanda's case, then I disagree with it. I do know that prisoners are routinely forbidden from making profits from their writings. I don't see why that law would be necessary if their writings were anything other than their personal property, that is, if they were subject to confiscation.
 
Mary H said:
Then why, Machiavelli, did the police not just go into Amanda's cell and take her diary?

I already told everything. I told you Amanda gave the diary, I told you they needed a mandate and, had Amanda refused to give her the diary, they would have got it with a mandate in the afternoon. If you call this procedure "privacy", then she was granted her privacy, and you should be satisfied.
 
Charlie Wilkens,

I asked whether you read it entirely because right those pages don't contradict at all my ideas and do not support Kevin Lowes claims. For a paradox, that pathologist worked on stomah samples, ot on stomach emptying times (even less on the most aleatory and variable difference between time of beginning and finishing of the emptying of stomach, a time that can be extremely short).
Put this in contrast with the findings decaring the advanced state of digestion in Meredith's stomach, with the main meal being already entirely dissolved.

Baden writes, "Within two hours of eating, 95 percent of the food has moved out of the stomach and into the small intestine."

According to Lalli's autopsy report, Meredith's duodenum was empty. Her meal had not even begun to empty from her stomach.

Moreover, the time of the last meal in your story is known.

Right. And we know that Meredith and her friends ate around 6 pm and had dessert halfway through the movie.

Moreover, the conditions of the kids after the meal were known, and the author is warning that in other cases, where intense stress or situations of fear are included, the time of digestion is slowed considerably, more than one hour.
Moreover, the kids did not assume alchohol

Nor did Meredith on the night she was killed. She and her friends drank water with their meal.

and the mode of assumption of food was known (a single meal at once, relation of the kind of meal with their digestion issues known). Moreover, in the specific case the stage of digestion was checked on multiple victims who had their meal at the same time. Moreover, a variation in time of digestion of less than one hour is considerd normal by the author. And, not to be forgotten, the time of death shortly after death was sensitive to the case, in a way in which this case is not. The idea that 23:30 is needed to Massei is a definitive misleading mirage. The Massei reconstruction is not the same thing as the case angainst Amanda and Raffaele,

Yes, Massei's report is nonsense. The man is a lackey and a lapdog. On that we agree.

and the appeal is not an assessment on Massei's narrative.

Kevin Lowe's idea rests ultimately on the introduction of other assumtions that he inserts on his own by his belief, like: that Curatolo could possibly provide an alibi for some time frame, that at 21:30 both Amanda and Raffaele may have an alibi, that death occurred before 22:00, that Meredith was not in a frightening or stressful situation since before, that the time of death can be assessed with less than an hour error, that the time of the meal was known...

The known facts are as follows: Meredith's 6 pm meal was in her stomach. Her 8:56 pm call home was cut off before it was completed, and she didn't try the number again, even though she was worried about her sick mother. Make of it what you will.
 
Charlie Wilkens,

I asked whether you read it entirely because right those pages don't contradict at all my ideas and do not support Kevin Lowes claims. For a paradox, that pathologist worked on stomah samples, ot on stomach emptying times (even less on the most aleatory and variable difference between time of beginning and finishing of the emptying of stomach, a time that can be extremely short).

That doesn't help your case at all, the opposite if anything.

Inspection of the plausible values for t(lag) alone (combined with the temperature evidence, witness statements etc) shows that Meredith died before 22:00.

However you can look at the state of the semi-digested matter in Meredith's stomach for additional confirmation. There were still identifiable chunks of cheese in her stomach, which as this letter states indicates that she was almost certainly not alive five hours after her meal.

Put this in contrast with the findings decaring the advanced state of digestion in Meredith's stomach, with the main meal being already entirely dissolved.

Where do you get this stuff? Seriously, what is your source for these claims? There were still recognisable chunks of cheese in Meredith's stomach.

Moreover, the time of the last meal in your story is known.

Where do you get the idea that it is not known in this case? Meredith ate her pizza somewhere between 18:00 and 18:30, and some apple crumble a little later. All of it was still in her stomach when she died.

Moreover, the conditions of the kids after the meal were known, and the author is warning that in other cases, where intense stress or situations of fear are included, the time of digestion is slowed considerably, more than one hour.

Meredith was not under intense stress or fear until 21:05 or so at the earliest when she got home. If she was attacked then (and put in a state of intense stress and fear) then Amanda and Raffaele weren't there and can't have been the ones doing it.

Since someone was out of the house with her mobile phones by 22:13, she was certainly dead within an hour of being attacked, and once again this rules out Amanda and Raffaele as the attackers.

Moreover, the kids did not assume alchohol

Neither did Meredith... seriously, what on Earth have you been reading that you have these ideas?

and the mode of assumption of food was known (a single meal at once, relation of the kind of meal with their digestion issues known).

Same in this case, a known portion of pizza at a known time.

Moreover, in the specific case the stage of digestion was checked on multiple victims who had their meal at the same time. Moreover, a variation in time of digestion of less than one hour is considerd normal by the author.

The problem here is that Meredith is already well out into the long tail of the distribution with a t(lag) of 150 minutes or so. Meredith could, as far as the stomach evidence goes, have died anywhere between maybe 7:20 and maybe 22:00, depending on how far down the tail you are willing to suspend disbelief. However most of that window of variability is excluded by the testimony of her friends who were with her until 21:00.

And, not to be forgotten, the time of death shortly after death was sensitive to the case, in a way in which this case is not. The idea that 23:30 is needed to Massei is a definitive misleading mirage. The Massei reconstruction is not the same thing as the case angainst Amanda and Raffaele, and the appeal is not an assessment on Massei's narrative.

The problem Massei was at least smart enough to realise is that no earlier time of death makes sense of the various witness statements. If Curatolo, Nara, and the people in the broken-down car are all accurate then Meredith cannot have been murdered by Raffaele and Amanda at any earlier time, and even a 23:30 time of death has the serious problem that it would have the four of them in a drug-fuelled sex orgy at 23:00 or so when we know the house was dark and silent.

It's still a stupid theory, but it's the least stupid one Massei could find.

Kevin Lowe's idea rests ultimately on the introduction of other assumtions that he inserts on his own by his belief, like: that Curatolo could possibly provide an alibi for some time frame,

Actually that's me making fun of the guilters. Personally I think Curatolo is a police stooge who'd finger anyone for murder if he was told to, and I think his testimony is as valuable as a small pile of old fish entrails. However if you believe Curatolo is a good witness, and that's certainly part of PMF cult doctrine, then Amanda and Raffaele can't have murdered Meredith at 21:30 or earlier.

It just amuses me to point out that all the effort they have spent trying to reimagine Curatolo as a reliable witness bites them in the backside as soon as you look at the time of death evidence.

My view is that the computer evidence is reason enough to believe Amanda and Raffaele's claim that they were at home watching Naruto until 21:50 at the very earliest.

that at 21:30 both Amanda and Raffaele may have an alibi, that death occurred before 22:00, that Meredith was not in a frightening or stressful situation since before, that the time of death can be assessed with less than an hour error, that the time of the meal was known...

I think I've now shown that practically everything in your post is wrong. I've seen this referred to as fractal wrongness, where every individual part of your argument is just as wrong as the overall argument.
 
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