Marijuana and Mental Illness

[Aquila]

At the suggestion of another forum member on another thread which was becoming off topic, I would like to discuss marijuana, and its link to adult onset schizophrenia, schizo-affective disorder and Bipolar Disorder. This is the post I left on the other thread:

I've recently seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to chronic marijuana use.

IMO, it's time we stopped the denial about the harm caused by marijuana. I think that the modern weed makes people go crazy. It alters the ventricles in the brain. One doctor I heard said that he's seen brain scans of people who chronically smoked marijuana and their brains showed the same sort of damage as heroin addicts.

America has to stop its habit through eduction. Colleges have to stop turning a blind eye to students who smoke weed. They have to deny scholarships, close the Medical Marijuana clinics within walking distance from their campuses, stop college psychologists from talking up the harmless effects of pot.

From members reaction so far, it seems that several people opine that pot only brings out these mental illnesses in people who are already prone to them.

I'm not sure. After seeing one family member temporarily), and two of my friends' children get diagnosed with Bipolar or Schizo-effective disorders, I am concluding that their chronic (over 3 years of everyday use) marijuana use contributed to these students illnesses. All 3 youths (all male) were healthy when they were younger, with no signs of mental illness.

To start off, here is some evidence of the effects of marijuana on the brain:

http://www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html

 

[Dancing David]

Hi,
People develop mental illnesses, you would need a large controlled demographically matched study to show that it was the mj that caused the mental illness.

So when you show one that has a large pool randomly assigned, then we can talk, yes mj causes greater symptoms in people with mental illness. That does not mean it caused the mental illness. There are plenty of people with mental illness who never sued mj.

the fact that mj interacts with the brain does not mean it causes mental illness.

BTW look up 'age of onset'.

 

[Dancing David]

http://www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html
Nice study, and what other drugs did the people at the rehab center use?
EtoH, methamphetamine, crack, PCP?

What sort of demographic match was there: none.
What match for CBI and other cranial trauma was there: none.
What screening for FAS and FAE was there: none.

Also, five of the 14 subjects with heavy cannabis use also had a history of alcohol abuse, which may have contributed an effect. Also, it is possible that the brain abnormalities may have predisposed the subjects to drug dependence, rather than drug usage causing the brain abnormalities.

 

[Mirrorglass]

There is fairly strong evidence of cannabis contributing to earlier onset of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. There is much less evidence suggesting it contributes to onset of either in people who otherwise would not have fallen ill.

The latter, of course, is also much more difficult to study. Mental illnesses are quite common, and we have no way of knowing whether or not a person would have had a mental illness if something had been different. A large cohort study could shed some light on the issue, but to my knowledge, there hasn't been a reliable study like that. It would be difficult to run, since it would rely on tens of thousands of patients reliably reporting their drug use.

As to your own observations, well, I'm sure you realize that they simply aren't reliable. You have no way of knowing whether your acquaintances would have fallen ill anyway, and in any case, your sample size is far too small to be of significance.

Basically your argument is based on anecdotes, and as such is rather weak. Pointing out what the evidence actually suggests is quite typical skeptic behaviour.

By the way, my own views on cannabis are rather strict; in my opinion it is quite objectively a bad thing to use and have available. However, I am not convinced that criminalizing it is any kind of solution to the problems it causes. I believe your idea of shutting cannabis users outside higher education would only leave a lot of people in a worse position, while doing nothing to actually deter drug use. I also believe that limiting people's rights to free speech is never a good idea; instead, accurate and non-judgmental information should be made available.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

What about weed and getting lazy? Any science or thoughts on that?

Full disclosure: very occasional pot smoker who used to be pretty chronic and found that smoking alot made me lazy, and have seemed to notice the same in some friends.

 

[casebro]

I didn't see it, but on a TV show, probably 10 years ago, a British psychologist said he thought the druggies were 'devolutes'. Worthless long before they started the habit.

My own experience tells me that none of my friends that used drugs made anything of themselves until the out grew the habit. Oh, I've seen successes start using. Some could handle it, others lost everything- after they lost their ambition.

But how can we outlaw something that can be grown in the garden, as easy as growing a tomato plant? Jimmy Carter legalized homebrew, for my own consumption...

 

[JWideman]

I know several people who are bipolar or schizophrenic and have never done any recreational drugs in their lives.
Also, you have to consider that people with problems tend to self-medicate. LOTS of people who are bipolar use drugs - especially pot - in an attempt to control their mood swings. It is the same with schizophrenics.
I don't think the effects of chronic marijuana use are any worse than the effects of chronic alcohol use. Most people who consume either continue to live happy, healthy lives. In fact, a larger portion of pot smokers smoke moderately than drinkers drink moderately.
Likewise, casual use of pot is no worse compared to casual use of alcohol. You never hear about someone who gets mean when they get high, for that matter.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

At the suggestion of another forum member on another thread which was becoming off topic, I would like to discuss marijuana, and its link to adult onset schizophrenia, schizo-affective disorder and Bipolar Disorder. This is the post I left on the other thread:

I've recently seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to chronic marijuana use.

IMO, it's time we stopped the denial about the harm caused by marijuana. I think that the modern weed makes people go crazy. It alters the ventricles in the brain. One doctor I heard said that he's seen brain scans of people who chronically smoked marijuana and their brains showed the same sort of damage as heroin addicts.

America has to stop its habit through eduction. Colleges have to stop turning a blind eye to students who smoke weed. They have to deny scholarships, close the Medical Marijuana clinics within walking distance from their campuses, stop college psychologists from talking up the harmless effects of pot.

From members reaction so far, it seems that several people opine that pot only brings out these mental illnesses in people who are already prone to them.

I'm not sure. After seeing one family member temporarily), and two of my friends' children get diagnosed with Bipolar or Schizo-effective disorders, I am concluding that their chronic (over 3 years of everyday use) marijuana use contributed to these students illnesses. All 3 youths (all male) were healthy when they were younger, with no signs of mental illness.

To start off, here is some evidence of the effects of marijuana on the brain:

http://www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html

The term pot-head takes on new meaning with a study that suggests adolescents and young adults who smoked a lot of marijuana are more likely than non-users to have disrupted brain development.

This study applies to children, whose brains are developing. Of course children with developing brains should not smoke marijuana, just like children should also not drink much alcohol nor caffeine.

reported smoking nearly 6 marijuana joints daily in the final year before they stopped using the drug.

Jesus Christ! Of COURSE smoking 6 joints a day is bad for you!!! Do you honestly think the average pot smoker is smoking anything like this? I have known some pretty big pot heads in my day, but even I've never met anyone who smokes this much.


Let me ask you this: do you think a college student who has eaten one candy bar should lose financial aid to go to college? Because that argument makes as much sense as the one you are making. Bad nutrition has more of an effect on the developing bodies of children than it does on adults. Also, anyone who eats enormous amounts of junk food is putting themselves at HUGE risk for health issues, and not just depression (which is linked to obesity) but to a myriad of other health conditions. They are subject to far more health complications than a heavy pot user.

So, do you think a college student who has had one candy bar does not deserve to go to college and should be villified because kids who eat ten candy bars a day develop health problems? Do you think candy bars should be illegal?

If not, how can you possibly justify doing the same exact thing a college student who is a casual pot smoker?

Full disclosure: very occasional pot smoker who used to be pretty chronic and found that smoking alot made me lazy, and have seemed to notice the same in some friends

I agree that chronic pot use has such an effect. Just like chronic junk food eating makes you fat and chronic alcohol consumption affects both your behavior and physical health. Pot is on a list along with many other things which absolutely should not be done in excess and which people should be educated about when it comes to the effects of chronic use.

Aquila I think it is absolutely disgusting that you think a college student who has smoked one joint deserves to have their lives ruined (by being kicked out of college) because they are doing something which, if done to a ridiculous extreme amount, is dangerous. Why don't you apply this same logic to people who consume meat, junk food, alcohol, caffeine, asprin...or to people who go suntanning, for that matter? Maybe you think students who pull an all nighter should lose their scholarships, because chronic lack of sleep is very bad for you?

I just honestly can't understand the logic behind saying that if something done excessively is bad for you, anyone who does it AT ALL deserves to have their lives ruined.

I could show you any number of studies that demonstrate the effects of excessive sleep deprivation, sun tanning, caffeine use, meat eating, alcohol consumption, or junk food consumption is far far FAR more profound than excessive pot use. And UNLIKE any studies YOU have posted...these studies are CONCLUSIVE. There is NO doubt that these things in excess are bad for you. In fact, every single one of these things, when done to excess, can KILL you, even not sleeping (see fatal familial insomnia).

Unless you want to kick every kid who has ever gone one night without sleeping out of college, you are an absolute hypocrite to say that a kid who has been caught smoking one joint should be kicked out.

I'm not sure. After seeing one family member temporarily), and two of my friends' children get diagnosed with Bipolar or Schizo-effective disorders, I am concluding that their chronic (over 3 years of everyday use) marijuana use contributed to these students illnesses. All 3 youths (all male) were healthy when they were younger, with no signs of mental illness.

IIRC Schizophrenia's age of onset is most common in late teens and early twenties. Many sufferers show no symptoms of mental illness prior to this.

Also, let's say a student did one drug one time that actually IS dangerous. They should not get college financial aid for it? Let's take crystal meth. So a kid tries crystal meth one time and gets arrested for it, goes on probation, has to undergo drug information sessions, and never ever does any drug ever again? You think a kid should have their lives ruined because of ONE mistake? ONE mistake? How is that helpful to either that kid or society? Your lack of compassion is astounding. One of the best doctors I know did coke maybe once or twice in college. He's a top ranked surgeon and has saved numerous peoples' lives. But if you had your way, he'd never be a doctor because he made a mistake when he was 19 years old that he has never made since. Wow. Just...wow.

I really wish you were just some horrible troll, bad sadly, I think you're serious.

 

[Cainkane1]

if this is true and people get bi polar or schizophrenic because of MJ use what happens if they quit? Do the symptoms stay or do they go away? I can't use pot myself because it causes me to have a severe panic attack but a few hours after I quit using the pot the symptoms went away.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

if this is true and people get bi polar or schizophrenic because of MJ use what happens if they quit? Do the symptoms stay or do they go away? I can't use pot myself because it causes me to have a severe panic attack but a few hours after I quit using the pot the symptoms went away.

It hasn't been even conclusively shown that there even is a link. Some listings of this study's shortcomings:

For one, it involved a small number of subjects. Also, five of the 14 subjects with heavy cannabis use also had a history of alcohol abuse, which may have contributed an effect. Also, it is possible that the brain abnormalities may have predisposed the subjects to drug dependence, rather than drug usage causing the brain abnormalities

Aquila has a bad habit of posting studies they don't read first...which are INCONCLUSIVE and apply to a very specific subset of people (in this case, only teenagers who smoke ENORMOUS quantities of weed) and then dishonestly suggest that this has conclusive implications for all people.

 

[Vortigern99]

I'd like to second SchrodCat's observations and refutations of the Op's flawed logic.

I would also like to offer, anecdotally, that I have known three schizophrenic and/or bipolar persons -- my first wife, my mother's longtime partner, and my current wife's mother -- none of whom smoke/d pot.

All three were/are also from the state of Michigan. Plug that into your correlation/causation computations and see what results emerge!

 

[BenBurch]

My clinical psychologist friends tell me that Marijuana in mental illness is a self-medication strategy but one that can complicate an issue if taken too far.

Much as chain smoking of tobacco is an (effective) self-medication strategy in those with schizophrenia, pot smoking helps cushion depression and anxiety disorders, at least at first.

They tell me that they know of no serious psychiatric disorders actually caused by it.

And these are people who have dealt with a very large population of troubled youths.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I'd like to second SchrodCat's observations and refutations of the Op's flawed logic.

I would also like to offer, anecdotally, that I have known three schizophrenic and/or bipolar persons -- my first wife, my mother's longtime partner, and my current wife's mother -- none of whom smoke/d pot.

All three were/are also from the state of Michigan. Plug that into your correlation/causation computations and see what results emerge!

I have never known someone with schizophrenia, but I know a two people with bipolar disorder and neither were pot users. Both developed bipolar disorder well into their twenties with no previous history of mental illness.

Also, on a personal level, I suffered from anorexia and obsessive compulsive disorder for over a decade, and I never smoked pot. Towards the end of my illness, I started smoking on rare occasions for recreational purposes. While in anorexia rehab, I found that pot use was common amongst other anorexics as a way to both work up enough of an apetite to eat and also to decrease the stress involved with eating. I smoked pretty heavily (before most meals) after I got out of rehab and it was an absolutely wonderful resource in helping me be able to eat and to make eating less stressful. As eating became easier, I smoked progressively less, and then I greatly reduced my smoking habits once my anorexia was completely in remission. I consider pot to have been an invaluable resource for me while I was dealing with my own mental health issues.

 

[Vortigern99]

I would also like to offer, anecdotally, that I have known three schizophrenic and/or bipolar persons -- my first wife, my mother's longtime partner, and my current wife's mother -- none of whom smoke/d pot.

Expounding on this a bit with regard to SchrodCat's reply, my first wife was anorexic and bulimic for most of her life. She was also an alcoholic.

My mother's longtime partner was an alcoholic for much of his life, as well, until he stopped drinking some 15 years ago.

Both were/are bipolar and/or schizophrenic (there seems to be some overlap in these diagnoses, and different doctors have offered different opinions).

 

[Ambermae]

I have BPD with a side helping of Bipolar and i can honestly say i have never smoked weed or anything else for that matter, i did however have a nasty Speed habit until about 5 years ago but my symptoms started long before my drug abuse.

 

[PS13]

This study applies to children, whose brains are developing. Of course children with developing brains should not smoke marijuana, just like children should also not drink much alcohol nor caffeine.



Jesus Christ! Of COURSE smoking 6 joints a day is bad for you!!! Do you honestly think the average pot smoker is smoking anything like this? I have known some pretty big pot heads in my day, but even I've never met anyone who smokes this much.


Let me ask you this: do you think a college student who has eaten one candy bar should lose financial aid to go to college? Because that argument makes as much sense as the one you are making. Bad nutrition has more of an effect on the developing bodies of children than it does on adults. Also, anyone who eats enormous amounts of junk food is putting themselves at HUGE risk for healthy issues, and not just depression (which is linked to obesity) but to a myriad of other health conditions. They are subject to far more health complications than a heavy pot user.

So, do you think a college student who has had one candy bar does not deserve to go to college and should be villified because kids who eat ten candy bars a day develop health problems? Do you think candy bars should be illegal?

If not, how can you possibly justify doing the same exact thing a college student who is a casual pot smoker?



I agree that chronic pot use has such an effect. Just like chronic junk food eating makes you fat and chronic alcohol consumption affects both your behavior and physical health. Pot is on a list along with many other things which absolutely should not be done in excess and which people should be educated about when it comes to the effects of chronic use.

Aquila I think it is absolutely disgusting that you think a college student who has smoked one joint deserves to have their lives ruined (by being kicked out of college) because they are doing something which, if done to a ridiculous extreme amount, is dangerous. Why don't you apply this same logic to people who consume meat, junk food, alcohol, caffeine, asprin...or to people who go suntanning, for that matter? Maybe you think students who pull an all nighter should lose their scholarships, because chronic lack of sleep is very bad for you?

I just honestly can't understand the logic behind saying that if something done excessively is bad for you, anyone who does it AT ALL deserves to have their lives ruined.

I could show you any number of studies that demonstrate the effects of excessive sleep deprivation, sun tanning, caffeine use, meat eating, alcohol consumption, or junk food consumption has far far FAR more of an effect than excessive pot use. And UNLIKE any studies YOU have posted...these studies are CONCLUSIVE. There is NO doubt that these things in excess are bad for you. In fact, every single one of these things, when done to excess, can KILL you, even not sleeping (see fatal familial insomnia).

Unless you want to kick every kid who has ever gone one night without sleeping out of college, you are an absolute hypocrite to say that a kid who has been caught smoking one joint should be kicked out.




IIRC Schizophrenia's age of onset is most common in late teens and early twenties. Many sufferers show no symptoms of mental illness prior to this.

Also, let's say a student did one drug one time that actually IS dangerous. They should not get college financial aid for it? Let's take crystal meth. So a kid tries crystal meth one time and gets arrested for it, goes on probation, has to undergo drug information sessions, and never ever does any drug ever again? You think a kid should have their lives ruined because of ONE mistake? ONE mistake? How is that helpful to either that kid or society? Your lack of compassion is astounding. One of the best doctors I know did coke maybe once or twice in college. He's a top ranked surgeon and has saved numerous peoples' lives. But if you had your way, he'd never be a doctor because he made a mistake when he was 19 years old that he has never made since. Wow. Just...wow.

I really just you were some horrible troll, bad sadly, I think you're serious.

Excellent post, Schrodinger's Cat...

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Excellent post, Schrodinger's Cat...

I thank you for the applause, but frankly, an OP this poorly constructed doesn't exactly take a conversational wizard to debunk it.

 

[Aquila]

Seems like even you hardened skeptics agree that too much MJ is not good; my personal experiences are that it causes laziness. I used to smoke the much milder version (before it was bred for high THC content) 30 years ago but then got a life instead. I know people from then who are still pot heads and have done nothing with their lives - mostly been unemployed and living on welfare or legacies.

I compare psychoactive drugs to the religious person's idea of God or Jesus. Why do people need that crutch? Life is absolutely amazing in real time, without being fuzzed into an alternative state of consciousness. Why does anyone need a substance in their bloodstream to be happy, to eat properly, or to appreciate the beauty of a forest? What happened to good old psychotherapy, or simply talking about one's problems and fears with a friend?

Marijuana is only a symptom reliever and won't change the cause of whatever is making people depressed. It is an escape, and just like religion, it causes many more problems than it gives the illusion of solving. People say that it is a "harmless" recreational drug. Oh really? Why do drug dealers carry guns and shoot each other over it then?

Schrodinger's Cat: Re my suggestions about penalizing students who smoke weed. One of my son's classmates at High School was caught sharing pot on campus and was denied entrance to an Ivy League college he had just got into. It was not my idea to impose penalties. His example deterred other students from doing the same.

I feel the same about nutrition; why are people so lazy? Nutrition was taught in my and my children's high-school, and everyone who graduates high school should have a basic idea of how the human body works and what sort of foods it needs. If people chose to willfully break the laws of nutrition by eating junk then why should other people have to pay for them getting obese, getting diabetes etc? This is not a lack of compassion - it is simply being fed up of laziness. If people simply stopped buying junk, it would go away - just like the Mexican drug cartels would dry up and go home to their mommies if America stopped being so lazy and dependent on things that they think are somehow OK for them, due to advertising or peer pressure.

ETA: sorry to get into social issues again on a science thread.

 

[GeeMack]

Seems like even you hardened skeptics agree that too much MJ is not good; [...]

By definition the term too much pretty much means not good... by definition. So your statement above is a tautology.

[...] my personal experiences are that it causes laziness. I used to smoke the much milder version (before it was bred for high THC content) 30 years ago but then got a life instead.

You say that as if having a life and occasionally indulging in recreational intoxicants are mutually exclusive. They aren't.

I know people from then who are still pot heads and have done nothing with their lives - mostly been unemployed and living on welfare or legacies.

But the people you know who still smoke pot and aren't bums living on welfare aren't, well, bums. They are employed productive members of society with hobbies and interests and families and children and everything. So you wouldn't notice they're pot smokers because of your quite apparent confirmation bias.

I compare psychoactive drugs to the religious person's idea of God or Jesus.

You might find you're pretty close to alone in believing that's a reasonable comparison. Having faith in magical invisible beings is quite different from obtaining a very real physiological effect from caffeine, alcohol, marijuana, LSD, nicotine, Valium, and a very long list of etc.

Why do people need that crutch? Life is absolutely amazing in real time, without being fuzzed into an alternative state of consciousness. Why does anyone need a substance in their bloodstream to be happy, to eat properly, or to appreciate the beauty of a forest? What happened to good old psychotherapy, or simply talking about one's problems and fears with a friend?

So you advocate paying a shrink but reject marijuana as a legitimate tool for self medication. You reject marijuana as a recreational intoxicant, yet there are people who climb sheer rock faces of mountains, jump out of airplanes, drive motorcycles at very high speeds, ride wild bucking bulls, box, and a very long list of etc. that are objectively much more likely to cause injury or death than smoking marijuana.

Marijuana is only a symptom reliever and won't change the cause of whatever is making people depressed.

Well, unless the cause of whatever is making them depressed is a chemical imbalance for which marijuana is helping them to achieve a balance.

It is an escape, and just like religion, it causes many more problems than it gives the illusion of solving.

So you say, but if you were being honest you'd have to admit you have absolutely no way of knowing that.

People say that it is a "harmless" recreational drug. Oh really? Why do drug dealers carry guns and shoot each other over it then?

You have to ask that? Really? Drug dealers, the successful ones, don't do drugs. They carry guns and shoot each other because of money. If it wasn't drugs it might be artichokes. Prohibition, not drugs, is the cause of those particular societal problems.

Schrodinger's Cat: Re my suggestions about penalizing students who smoke weed. One of my son's classmates at High School was caught sharing pot on campus and was denied entrance to an Ivy League college he had just got into. It was not my idea to impose penalties. His example deterred other students from doing the same.

And it's still a stupid idea. If we will judge a person's future on an indiscretion, wouldn't it be wiser to base the level of the penalty on the relative risk of the indiscretion? Like wouldn't it be more reasonable to put people in prison for rock climbing and kick people out of school for parachute jumping? Why would you consider it appropriate to take away someone's potential to create a good future for him/herself for experimenting with one of the, dare I say it, god given pleasures available in this wonderful experience we call life?

I feel the same about nutrition; why are people so lazy? Nutrition was taught in my and my children's high-school, and everyone who graduates high school should have a basic idea of how the human body works and what sort of foods it needs.

That's right, and some measurable portion of those kids will eventually be obese, eat too much fat, sugar, and cholesterol. How about we kick them out of college and take away their option to create a decent future when they do that?

If people chose to willfully break the laws of nutrition by eating junk then why should other people have to pay for them getting obese, getting diabetes etc? This is not a lack of compassion - it is simply being fed up of laziness.

First of all there are no "laws of nutrition", but... Yes, it is a lack of compassion. It's judgmental and it's unkind. If you think about it you ain't so special that you should be sitting there declaring judgment on the sins of others. But that's exactly what you're doing. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would say, "How dare you?"

If people simply stopped buying junk, it would go away - just like the Mexican drug cartels would dry up and go home to their mommies if America stopped being so lazy and dependent on things that they think are somehow OK for them, due to advertising or peer pressure.

But you're forgetting the economic laws of supply and demand. You are simply not going to eliminate the demand. So as long as the supply is subject to the restrictive laws that go along with prohibition, you'll have the cartels with the violence and all the other risks and dangers involved with ____________. There's a fill-in-the-blank test for you, Aquila. Answer "drugs" to flunk the test.

 

[BenBurch]

Too much of ANYTHING is no good. This does not argue that ANYTHING should be banned, criminalized, or that people with guns ought to kill you if you persist in trying to obtain it.