Marijuana and Mental Illness

[Schrodinger's Cat]

By the way, I thought I should also clarify that I certainly didn't mean to imply that not going to college inevitably results in a wretched life. I was applying that argument only as it pertains to someone whose life goals can only be attained through a college education. Just want to make sure there's no misunderstanding on that point.

 

[Emet]

Was Reefer Madness on TV recently?

 

[DC]

At the suggestion of another forum member on another thread which was becoming off topic, I would like to discuss marijuana, and its link to adult onset schizophrenia, schizo-affective disorder and Bipolar Disorder. This is the post I left on the other thread:

I've recently seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to chronic marijuana use.

IMO, it's time we stopped the denial about the harm caused by marijuana. I think that the modern weed makes people go crazy. It alters the ventricles in the brain. One doctor I heard said that he's seen brain scans of people who chronically smoked marijuana and their brains showed the same sort of damage as heroin addicts.

America has to stop its habit through eduction. Colleges have to stop turning a blind eye to students who smoke weed. They have to deny scholarships, close the Medical Marijuana clinics within walking distance from their campuses, stop college psychologists from talking up the harmless effects of pot.

From members reaction so far, it seems that several people opine that pot only brings out these mental illnesses in people who are already prone to them.

I'm not sure. After seeing one family member temporarily), and two of my friends' children get diagnosed with Bipolar or Schizo-effective disorders, I am concluding that their chronic (over 3 years of everyday use) marijuana use contributed to these students illnesses. All 3 youths (all male) were healthy when they were younger, with no signs of mental illness.

To start off, here is some evidence of the effects of marijuana on the brain:

http://www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html

The findings are considered preliminary, however, and more research is needed to confirm the work.

maybe its not time to stop a non existing denial, but its time to stop jumping to conclusions.

 

[Aquila]

By definition the term too much pretty much means not good... by definition. So your statement above is a tautology.

I've just learned a new term - thanks.

You say that as if having a life and occasionally indulging in recreational intoxicants are mutually exclusive. They aren't.

But we aren't talking about occasional indulgence - I was talking about brain-damaging chronic MJ use.

But the people you know who still smoke pot and aren't bums living on welfare aren't, well, bums. They are employed productive members of society with hobbies and interests and families and children and everything. So you wouldn't notice they're pot smokers because of your quite apparent confirmation bias.

Actually, the male chronic pot heads I spoke about earlier don't have families any more. Their wives left, with the kids. Don't blame them.

You might find you're pretty close to alone in believing that's a reasonable comparison. Having faith in magical invisible beings is quite different from obtaining a very real physiological effect from caffeine, alcohol, marijuana, LSD, nicotine, Valium, and a very long list of etc.

Having faith in magical invisible beings (the good ones) does produce real physiological effects, according to some believers. Those effects are called
"Health". On the other hand the very real physiological effects of the substances you mention start off positive but soon rebound into a state worse than before taken, leaning more towards disease and imbalance than health.

So you advocate paying a shrink but reject marijuana as a legitimate tool for self medication.

Yes. The shrink will help the person understand the root of their problems, see things with perspective and change their emotional reactions. The dope will only cover the problem up with an altered state of consciousness.

You reject marijuana as a recreational intoxicant, yet there are people who climb sheer rock faces of mountains, jump out of airplanes, drive motorcycles at very high speeds, ride wild bucking bulls, box, and a very long list of etc. that are objectively much more likely to cause injury or death than smoking marijuana.

Isn't this called a Straw Man argument?

Well, unless the cause of whatever is making them depressed is a chemical imbalance for which marijuana is helping them to achieve a balance.

If the cause of depression is a chemical imbalance, the cure is nutrition, - B vitamins are said to be good for the nervous system (plus good life style, more sleep and removal of stress, which all effect health) not a temporary fix of marijuana.

You have to ask that? Really? Drug dealers, the successful ones, don't do drugs. They carry guns and shoot each other because of money. If it wasn't drugs it might be artichokes. Prohibition, not drugs, is the cause of those particular societal problems.

I was talking about indirect links from marijuana to the dealers' behavior, not the fact that they don't smoke the stuff themselves. It's a violent business. Even if they legalize it in the U.S. I doubt whether this will change much of the behavior of the "businessmen" involved in getting it to users.

And it's still a stupid idea. If we will judge a person's future on an indiscretion, wouldn't it be wiser to base the level of the penalty on the relative risk of the indiscretion?

Good idea. If a student misses a lecture because he was too tired to get up in the morning from the previous night's getting stoned, then let the college deduct that portion of his grant from his funds. etc. etc

Like wouldn't it be more reasonable to put people in prison for rock climbing and kick people out of school for parachute jumping? Why would you consider it appropriate to take away someone's potential to create a good future for him/herself for experimenting with one of the, dare I say it, god given pleasures available in this wonderful experience we call life?

I don't know why you folks think that I am suggesting the draconian measures you mention. I'm not. I simply suggested some sort of reining in of what looks like a system which has become far too lenient and open to abuse. Parents pay for their kids to go to college, as well as college boards giving grants and scholarships. Why should they continue to pay for students who waste lecturers' time and abuse their monetary generosity?

That's right, and some measurable portion of those kids will eventually be obese, eat too much fat, sugar, and cholesterol. How about we kick them out of college and take away their option to create a decent future when they do that?

How about colleges just continue to remove the soft-drink machines from campuses instead?

First of all there are no "laws of nutrition", but... Yes, it is a lack of compassion. It's judgmental and it's unkind. If you think about it you ain't so special that you should be sitting there declaring judgment on the sins of others. But that's exactly what you're doing. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would say, "How dare you?"

So you admit that pot smoking is a sin.
I thought there were laws of nutrition, but maybe that's just the mean, judgmental, unkind part of me talking.

But you're forgetting the economic laws of supply and demand. You are simply not going to eliminate the demand. So as long as the supply is subject to the restrictive laws that go along with prohibition, you'll have the cartels with the violence and all the other risks and dangers involved with ____________. There's a fill-in-the-blank test for you, Aquila. Answer "drugs" to flunk the test.

Isn't this what I said in the first place? (on the other thread I think)

 

[Molinaro]

Jesus Christ! Of COURSE smoking 6 joints a day is bad for you!!! Do you honestly think the average pot smoker is smoking anything like this? I have known some pretty big pot heads in my day, but even I've never met anyone who smokes this much.

I can say that an average of 2 or 3 a day for 20 years did nothing to my mental health. And for a stretch of about 2 of those years, a half ounce a day did no worse. And after 2 years of none at all, still no change.

 

[DC]

I can say that an average of 2 or 3 a day for 20 years did nothing to my mental health. And for a stretch of about 2 of those years, a half ounce a day did no worse. And after 2 years of none at all, still no change.

how would you know? if it is indeed hindering some development, you would have to compare it to your brain if you didn't smoke that amount.

 

[Molinaro]

how would you know? if it is indeed hindering some development, you would have to compare it to your brain if you didn't smoke that amount.

I'm commenting in reference to the mental illnesses mentioned in this thread. I have no symptoms of any of them, hence that's how I know it's appropriate to make the comment you quoted.

 

[DC]

I'm commenting in reference to the mental illnesses mentioned in this thread. I have no symptoms of any of them, hence that's how I know it's appropriate to make the comment you quoted.

oh sorry then peace man

 

[Emet]

<snip>
If the cause of depression is a chemical imbalance, the cure is nutrition, - B vitamins are said to be good for the nervous system (plus good life style, more sleep and removal of stress, which all effect health) not a temporary fix of marijuana.

No. Depression is a complex disease. Folate and B12 have been implicated in depression, but the so called "chemical imbalances" refer to neurotransmitters.

You can't eat enough Serotonin precursors, nor get a good night's sleep, nor rid oneself of stress to "cure" depression.

 

[Molinaro]

Although I will say that I knew someone who smoked an once a day for many years, and he's a total psycho. Although I suspect he always was. He claimed that if he didn't smoke that much to calm him down he would go around ripping people's heads off.

Just another anecdote for the discussion.

 

[Olowkow]

...He claimed that if he didn't smoke that much to calm him down he would go around ripping people's heads off.

Good grief! Not a guy to get high with. Proof of the positive effects of weed.

 

[BottledWater]

Aquila,

Have you ever smoked marijuana?

 

[Vortigern99]

I'm going to stop reading Aquila's posts. They are confused and illogical. QV his/her nonsensical replies, from today at 8:25 PM, to GeeMack's well-constructed and well-reasoned rebuttal.

Bare assertions (EG "the very real physiological effects of the substances you mention start off positive but soon rebound into a state worse than before taken, leaning more towards disease and imbalance than health"), arguments from ignorance (EG "Isn't this called a Straw Man argument?") and incredulity ("I doubt whether this will change much of the behavior of the "businessmen" involved in getting it to users") fill Aquila's posts, and I'm simply not going to waste my time reading his/her logical fallacies and unsubstantiated claims anymore.

 

[GeeMack]

I've just learned a new term - thanks.

You're welcome.

But we aren't talking about occasional indulgence - I was talking about brain-damaging chronic MJ use.

Actually your comment about getting a life was in regards to your own marijuana use. You said, "I used to smoke the much milder version (before it was bred for high THC content) 30 years ago but then got a life instead." Your attempt to imply you meant something else is dishonest.

Actually, the male chronic pot heads I spoke about earlier don't have families any more. Their wives left, with the kids. Don't blame them.

Actually you probably don't know who or how many of all the people you know smoke pot.

Having faith in magical invisible beings (the good ones) does produce real physiological effects, according to some believers. Those effects are called "Health".

And some people give their life's savings to their church because they believe in gods, and some of them live their final years in poverty. And some people pray and pray to cure their kids of terrible diseases instead of taking them to a doctor, and their kids die. So your claim that the effects are called "Health" is dishonest. Do you see a pattern developing here?

On the other hand the very real physiological effects of the substances you mention start off positive but soon rebound into a state worse than before taken, leaning more towards disease and imbalance than health.

Another unsupported assertion from a position of uninformed fear. Oh, and dishonestly attempting to support your position with something you made up out of thin air is, well... you know.

Yes. The shrink will help the person understand the root of their problems, see things with perspective and change their emotional reactions. The dope will only cover the problem up with an altered state of consciousness.

That is called an argument from ignorance.

Isn't this called a Straw Man argument?

No. I said...

"You reject marijuana as a recreational intoxicant, yet there are people who climb sheer rock faces of mountains, jump out of airplanes, drive motorcycles at very high speeds, ride wild bucking bulls, box, and a very long list of etc. that are objectively much more likely to cause injury or death than smoking marijuana."​

That means, well, read it again. It means what it says. Would you deny a kid the opportunity to go to college if he/she chose to engage in any of those other dangerous activities?

If the cause of depression is a chemical imbalance, the cure is nutrition, - B vitamins are said to be good for the nervous system (plus good life style, more sleep and removal of stress, which all effect health) not a temporary fix of marijuana.

And you got your medical degree from which educational institutions?

I was talking about indirect links from marijuana to the dealers' behavior, not the fact that they don't smoke the stuff themselves. It's a violent business. Even if they legalize it in the U.S. I doubt whether this will change much of the behavior of the "businessmen" involved in getting it to users.

Your argumnent from inredulity is noted. It's a violent business because there's lots of money in it for those willing to take serious risks. That's what prohibition does. And as far as making drugs legal, how about all those businessmen selling parmaceuticals at Walgreens, alcohol, tobacco, and groceries for that matter. Do you see them shooting each other? People engaging in legal enterprises hardly ever do that.

Good idea. If a student misses a lecture because he was too tired to get up in the morning from the previous night's getting stoned, then let the college deduct that portion of his grant from his funds. etc. etc

You mean like if he was studying late or if he is holding a night job to pay the balance of his tuition.

I don't know why you folks think that I am suggesting the draconian measures you mention. I'm not. I simply suggested some sort of reining in of what looks like a system which has become far too lenient and open to abuse. Parents pay for their kids to go to college, as well as college boards giving grants and scholarships. Why should they continue to pay for students who waste lecturers' time and abuse their monetary generosity?

You mean like if he was studying late or if he is holding a night job to pay the balance of his tuition.

How about colleges just continue to remove the soft-drink machines from campuses instead?

How about keeping things in perspective and putting college kids in prison or kicking them out of school for indiscretions like maintaining a poor diet? How many people die from coronary artery disease from having a lousy diet? How many people die from smoking pot? You wouldn't be hypocritical by suggesting a greater penalty for a lesser risk, would you?

So you admit that pot smoking is a sin.

I'm not the one who thinks it's a good idea to penalize people or damage their potental to build their futures because they smoke pot. I used the word "sin" because that seems to be your position.

I thought there were laws of nutrition, but maybe that's just the mean, judgmental, unkind part of me talking.

Quite possibly.

Isn't this what I said in the first place? (on the other thread I think)

Not unless you're a particularly poor communicator, it isn't.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've recently seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to chronic marijuana use.

You cannot make this claim. No scientific studies directly link chronic pot use to the mental illnesses you claim. It's like saying, I've seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to drinking milk.

It takes more than a temporal association to prove or even suggest causation. The disorders you list occur in many people who don't use pot, they have occurred historically in populations where pot use doesn't even occur, and lots of other possible causes have much stronger evidence of a causal relationship, such as malnutrition and influenza during pregnancy being related to schizophrenia.

To start off, here is some evidence of the effects of marijuana on the brain:

http://www.livescience.com/health/090203-marijuana-brain.html

From your citation:

The researchers assess what might happen to schizophrenia cases if we assume a causal link between cannabis use and onset of psychotic symptoms, an association widely recognised by some psychiatrists and researchers and considered recently by the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs.

What you have presented is a researcher making an assertion, "an association widely recognised by some psychiatrists and researchers" then calculating what an increase in drug use would do to mental illness rates.

There is nothing in the report whatsoever linking pot to the illnesses.

“We need to remember that our study does not address the question whether cannabis causes schizophrenia:

Claiming this supports your assertion is totally erroneous on your part. Just as others are telling you in this thread, you are misreading the report.

There are other studies you could have cited. None of them provide very strong evidence of a causal association between pot and mental illness. A few suggest pot might be involved in the initial psychotic episode. That is not causation, it is just as likely to be pure coincidence. Schizophrenia and bipolar disorders may just have a typical age of symptom onset that is also the typical time people develop chronic pot smoking.

Minimal Relationship Between Cannabis And Schizophrenia Or Psychosis, Suggested By New Study. This study notes how many chronic pot smokers do not develop mental illness.

The study found it would be necessary to stop 2800 heavy cannabis users in young men and over 5000 heavy cannabis users in young women to prevent a single case of schizophrenia. Among light cannabis users, those numbers rise to over 10,000 young men and nearly 30,000 young women to prevent one case of schizophrenia.

That is, IF a connection is actually found.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Long-Time Cannabis Use Associated With Psychosis

Previous studies have identified an association between cannabis use and psychosis, according to background information in the article. However, concerns remain that this research has not adequately accounted for confounding variables.

That means the association in no way has been convincingly shown to be causal. The researchers note the meaning of their findings:

"The nature of the relationship between psychosis and cannabis use is by no means simple," they write. Individuals who had experienced hallucinations early in life were more likely to have used cannabis longer and to use it more frequently. "This demonstrates the complexity of the relationship: those individuals who were vulnerable to psychosis (i.e., those who had isolated psychotic symptoms) were more likely to commence cannabis use, which could then subsequently contribute to an increased risk of conversion to a non-affective psychotic disorder."

It's a chicken and egg argument.

 

[Halfcentaur]

What is the point of your thread, Aquila?

You seem to be playing a game where you're claiming to only be discussing the danger of overindulgence, while at the same time implying that evidence of isolated occasional use should be punishable by consequences simply because of the hypothetical dangers supposedly possible through over indulgence.

This is dishonest and makes no sense. Over use and abuse of many substances and activities are not good for us and can ruin a person's health and life, but you don't maintain the same standard of consequence for the average use of these things.

You've fallen victim to the "demonization" of a substance through bias and misinformation.

 

[The_Animus]

I've recently seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to chronic marijuana use.

Colleges have to stop turning a blind eye to students who smoke weed. They have to deny scholarships...

After seeing one family member temporarily), and two of my friends' children get diagnosed with Bipolar or Schizo-effective disorders, I am concluding that their chronic (over 3 years of everyday use) marijuana use contributed to these students illnesses. All 3 youths (all male) were healthy when they were younger, with no signs of mental illness.

Seems like even you hardened skeptics agree that too much MJ is not good; my personal experiences are that it causes laziness. I used to smoke the much milder version (before it was bred for high THC content) 30 years ago but then got a life instead. I know people from then who are still pot heads and have done nothing with their lives - mostly been unemployed and living on welfare or legacies.

Since you enjoy using personal experiences as your evidence I'll provide personal experience as a counter. I have smoked pot for several years with daily use. I go to college, work and pay for everything myself. I will graduate this spring. I have a 3.8 GPA, have been involved in several student organizations and have helped plan or participated in activities such as, bringing a speaker from Lebanon to talk about capitalism, adopt a highway, campus cleanup, building a rain barrel, holding a panel discussion on the RNC media censorship, clean sweep recycling, and others. Two summers ago I spent a few months in Japan teaching Japanese students English. I was invited to join an international business honor society, and have received scholarships due to my academic success. I can presently speak Japanese well enough for basic daily conversation and am taking extra courses outside of my major in Japanese simply because I want to be fluent in a second language.

Despite my daily use for several years I suffer from none of the bad effects you feel coincide with pot and in fact I excel. I've never been caught but if I had then I would have lost funding for school and would not have been able to do much of that nor much of the good I will do in the future. I also have other friends who also frequently smoke pot who have also excelled.

Finally in case you haven't noticed the war on drugs doesn't work. It wastes billions of taxpayer dollars, diverts police from where they are actually needed, funds organized crime rather than funding government, fills up jails, prevents people from contributing to society, and in general is just incredibly stupid. We have 100+ years of experience knowing it doesn't work but we keep pretending if we just try a little harder or spend more money on it it will magically work.

I hope my experience will help change your view on this issue.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I'd like to chime in and say all of this anecdotal stuff is a bunch of bull.

Does pot make you lazy? Well I definitely don't smoke pot before going to work. But I smoke a lot of pot and I have no problem working hard and putting in some serious hours if need be. I worked 7 days a week for about 5 months straight this year for example.

Again, anecdotes are pointless, let's see some studies.

 

[This is The End]

I'd like to chime in and say all of this anecdotal stuff is a bunch of bull.

I do hope the people making the same mistake with the opposite viewpoint were just trying to show the OP the flaw in the logic.

(There were several "I knew X number of people with Y disease and none of them had ever smoked pot" answers....)

I know we've all heard the old "So-and-so lived to be 100 and smoked cigarettes for 85 years, so they can't possibly cause cancer!"

Jesus Christ! Of COURSE smoking 6 joints a day is bad for you!!! Do you honestly think the average pot smoker is smoking anything like this? I have known some pretty big pot heads in my day, but even I've never met anyone who smokes this much.

What is the old Cheech and Chong skit about people who smoke really small joints?

Anyway, as other posters pointed out above, chronic marijuana smoker usually means 1/4 to 1/2 ounce a day. That's definitely over 6 cigarettes. The OP said "chronic use" not "average use".