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Marijuana and Mental Illness

I also wanted to include an extensive article at http://www.schizophrenia.com

which I think might have started off this line of thinking about 10 years ago. It was the "original" study (in Sweden I think) of military conscripts. The actual study used to be found at http://www.schizophrenia.com/prevention/streetdrugs.html

Dead links at this time, so why aren't you citing the actual research?

You are very lazy
http://www.bmj.com/content/325/7374/1199.full, I found it in three minutes

Participants: 50 087 subjects: data were available on self reported use of cannabis and other drugs, and on several social and psychological characteristics.

Oh that is just ducky, self report, is a huge confounding factors as is 'other drus', you know how to pick 'em.

That statistical analysis is bogus as are the conclusions, why no correlations given? I bet because they are below 65%

So no correlations given, check.
No standard deviations given, check.
Self report as a confounding factor, check.
Other drugs, check.
Loose criteria (other psychosis), check.
No discussion of levels of EToH use, check.

So why is self report a confounding factors because perhaps people who do self report are having premorbid impulse symptoms? What if people who are not developing schizophrenia and 'other psychosis' are just not self reporting. Duh.

Why did they not correlate with actual arrests for MJ use, or reported discharges for MJ use. (assuming that MJ is illegal in Sweden.)
 
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GeeMack: I don't know how you can compare a film made in 1938 by a Church group to legitimate, scientific research conducted in the past 10 years. Did you even read the evidence cited in my last post?


I read all your links that weren't broken, and I hold pretty much the same opinion of the research you cite as Dancing David describes in his post above.

And please stop distorting my ideas about college students from my first post, which was originally posted in a thread about about drug related violence in Mexico. I've explained this before.


You said this [bolding mine]...

Colleges have to stop turning a blind eye to students who smoke weed. They have to deny scholarships, close the Medical Marijuana clinics within walking distance from their campuses, stop college psychologists from talking up the harmless effects of pot.

And this...

If a student misses a lecture because he was too tired to get up in the morning from the previous night's getting stoned, then let the college deduct that portion of his grant from his funds. etc. etc

[...]

I don't know why you folks think that I am suggesting the draconian measures you mention. I'm not. I simply suggested some sort of reining in of what looks like a system which has become far too lenient and open to abuse. Parents pay for their kids to go to college, as well as college boards giving grants and scholarships. Why should they continue to pay for students who waste lecturers' time and abuse their monetary generosity?


And when I mentioned a few other possible reasons a college kid might show up late for class you ignored them like they were invisible. Are you going to impose your punishment on everyone who is too tired to make it on time and drags him/herself in late to class, or are you going to make everyone take a piss test at the classroom door to discover the bad kids who smoked some pot? Are you going to ask everyone why they're late to class and trust them to answer honestly, or are you going to hook everyone up to a polygraph machine on their way into the classroom? Do your punishments apply just to the kids on scholarships or who are spending mommy and daddy's hard earned money, or do you punish the kids who are working hard to pay their own way, too? They're wasting the lecturer's time just like the kids who partied out a little too late.

I'm not distorting your comments. I'm ridiculing them. They're ridiculous.

The latest scientific research, cited above, warns young people that using cannabis could increase their risk of developing a psychotic illness later in life.


Dancing David has properly criticized the latest research you cited above.

End of story.


I certainly hope so, but pardon me if I have my doubts.

Just to add another thought before I give it a rest - [...]
 
OK GeeMack and everyone else who is upset by my seemingly inappropriate handling of the legal aspects of marijuana, even though it was not my main intention on this thread to discuss these. I'll try to explain my case in more detail.

In many respects, I actually agree with you, in that I don't think that marijuana use should carry severe penalties like prison time or even arrest. My suggestions about what colleges could do to decrease American students' involvement with drug-related violence in Mexico were meant to be alternatives to action by the police, and were also meant as suggestions for deterrents for students, not punishment.

I was born and raised in England, where the police force at that time did not carry guns. I was shocked when my American-born children were subject to the DARE program over here, where a uniformed and therefore armed policeman or policewoman would come into schools and lecture the classroom about avoiding drugs.

The whole DARE program stunk of control and fear, depriving students of realizing the real reason why it was not a good idea to take drugs, which is their health effects, NOT because of their illegality. IMO, all the DARE program did was instill fear of arrest in children, and even worse, fear of being shot with that gun in the policeman/woman's holster if one did not comply.

I felt so strongly about this forceful, bullying attempt at controlling our children's ability to think critically that I even wrote a formal complaint to my school district and went down town for a televised reading of my case before the school board. One of my additional points was that, as well as being controlling, the illegality of marijuana is very hypocritical considering that guns are legal in America. In other words, it is legal to carry a weapon which can be used to harm or kill someone else in one second, but illegal to carry a substance which might only do harm after many self-inflicted uses over a prolonged time. It seemed and still does seem quite illogical.

So I hope you see that I am not some raving conservative, fundamentalist or puritan prude that you have made me out to be. I am just a mother who cares about her kids, and young people in general. I work in education, where discipline is essential to learning. Kids crave rules, but soon spot those that are unjust. I think that one reason that students "go berserk" with marijuana experimentation when they get to college is because they have been given false, hypocritical ideas at high school through programs like the DARE program. Maybe if they had been taught about the dangers of drugs by doctors, rather than by armed policemen/women, they would be more sensible about refraining from drugs when they reach the freedom of adulthood when they get to college.
 
My suggestions about what colleges could do to decrease American students' involvement with drug-related violence in Mexico were meant to be alternatives to action by the police, and were also meant as suggestions for deterrents for students, not punishment.
Prohibition and punitive denial of fundamental rights as a deterrent? Punishing some adults (university students) so that others "get the message"?

Are you serious?
 
OK GeeMack and everyone else who is upset by my seemingly inappropriate handling of the legal aspects of marijuana, even though it was not my main intention on this thread to discuss these. I'll try to explain my case in more detail.


I'm not upset. I just think your position is unreasonable, and although it's amusing in a way, your continuing to dig yourself deeper with more and more ridiculous arguments is silly and somewhat pathetic.

In many respects, I actually agree with you, in that I don't think that marijuana use should carry severe penalties like prison time or even arrest. My suggestions about what colleges could do to decrease American students' involvement with drug-related violence in Mexico were meant to be alternatives to action by the police, and were also meant as suggestions for deterrents for students, not punishment.


American students aren't involved with drug related violence in Mexico. A combination of prohibition in the US and poverty in Mexico are the causes of the violence in Mexico. As well as being pretty self apparent to most rational observant people who don't believe their intuition trumps empirical science, this has been explained to you numerous times. It is dishonest of you to continue to flail this one about, so much so that it borders on being a lie.

And your deterrent vs punishment rationalization is BS. You're suggesting punishing the pot smokers or threatening them with punishment in order to deter others from using it. It's one and the same, your dishonest attempt to separate them notwithstanding.

I was born and raised in England, where the police force at that time did not carry guns. I was shocked when my American-born children were subject to the DARE program over here, where a uniformed and therefore armed policeman or policewoman would come into schools and lecture the classroom about avoiding drugs.

The whole DARE program stunk of control and fear, depriving students of realizing the real reason why it was not a good idea to take drugs, which is their health effects, NOT because of their illegality. IMO, all the DARE program did was instill fear of arrest in children, and even worse, fear of being shot with that gun in the policeman/woman's holster if one did not comply.


Indeed there are some serious problems with that approach. There are also some serious problems with threatening to revoke or deny a student's funding if he gets caught indulging his curiosity about things like marijuana. Neither seems to be an especially effective technique, but one of those approaches denies a kid his potential college education. So once again your philosophy of hunch-trumps-science fails you.

I felt so strongly about this forceful, bullying attempt at controlling our children's ability to think critically that I even wrote a formal complaint to my school district and went down town for a televised reading of my case before the school board. One of my additional points was that, as well as being controlling, the illegality of marijuana is very hypocritical considering that guns are legal in America. In other words, it is legal to carry a weapon which can be used to harm or kill someone else in one second, [...]


Of course your appeal to emotion here is a total and complete non sequitur. There are plenty of threads for whining about the evils of guns. Take it over there.

[...] but illegal to carry a substance which might only do harm after many self-inflicted uses over a prolonged time. It seemed and still does seem quite illogical.


Now you say "might". A few days ago you were pretty damned certain...

I've recently seen two young people diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder, directly linked to chronic marijuana use.

IMO, it's time we stopped the denial about the harm caused by marijuana. I think that the modern weed makes people go crazy. It alters the ventricles in the brain. One doctor I heard said that he's seen brain scans of people who chronically smoked marijuana and their brains showed the same sort of damage as heroin addicts.

And maybe it seems illogical because one thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. It is illogical. Your comparison is just plain silly.

So I hope you see that I am not some raving conservative, fundamentalist or puritan prude that you have made me out to be. I am just a mother who cares about her kids, and young people in general. I work in education, where discipline is essential to learning. Kids crave rules, but soon spot those that are unjust. I think that one reason that students "go berserk" with marijuana experimentation when they get to college is because they have been given false, hypocritical ideas at high school through programs like the DARE program.


As long as you continue to be dishonest in presenting your position by calling a punishment a deterrent, making irrational appeals to emotion by trying to connect unrelated issues, and interjecting ridiculous hyperbole like students going berserk, you can be certain you aren't going to get any traction.

Maybe if they had been taught about the dangers of drugs by doctors, rather than by armed policemen/women, they would be more sensible about refraining from drugs when they reach the freedom of adulthood when they get to college.


Maybe those doctors understand there isn't enough evidence to demonstrate a significant potential danger, so they're spending their time on more important pursuits, like playing another round of golf or taking a cruise to Jamaica. But hey, wasn't that fellow who narrated Reefer Madness a doctor? And wasn't his point that smoking marijuana will make you go crazy? His notions seem pretty well aligned with yours. Maybe that's the kind of guy you need lecturing your kids on the evils of marijuana.

Oh, and speaking of evidence, do you have any evidence that shows Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder is directly linked to chronic marijuana use? And if you don't, you could be honest for a change and just say, "No."
 
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Oh, and speaking of evidence, do you have any evidence that shows Bipolar Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder is directly linked to chronic marijuana use? And if you don't, you could be honest for a change and just say, "No."

No, I don't. I only have a hunch that chronic marijuana use might trigger off manic or schizo affective episodes in people who are otherwise prone to them.
 
Hunches do not make for good or even neutral policy. Evidence based reviews have almost all come down in favour of legalisation or at least removal of criminal penalties.
 
A "hunch" not backed up by well over two millennia of experience with it.

This. And anyone who says MJ isn't the same as it used to be 30 years ago blah blah blah has quite obviously never smoked any good Indian or Afghani hash in their lives, which is just as strong as anything available on the market today and has literally been used for thousands of years.

I hate prohibitionist woo, it really is such mindless drivel.
 
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No, I don't. I only have a hunch that chronic marijuana use might trigger off manic or schizo affective episodes in people who are otherwise prone to them.

Do you ever really read these posts?

Many substances effect symptoms of mental illness, alcohol is number one, then any stimulant, then the hallucinogens then MJ.

That is trivial and irrelevant. You are now moving your goals posts.
 
Actually I think one of the higher correlations for schizophrenia is tobacco use no? No causative effect is suggested for that one though.
 
OK GeeMack and everyone else who is upset by my seemingly inappropriate handling of the legal aspects of marijuana, even though it was not my main intention on this thread to discuss these. I'll try to explain my case in more detail.

In many respects, I actually agree with you, in that I don't think that marijuana use should carry severe penalties like prison time or even arrest. My suggestions about what colleges could do to decrease American students' involvement with drug-related violence in Mexico were meant to be alternatives to action by the police, and were also meant as suggestions for deterrents for students, not punishment.

I was born and raised in England, where the police force at that time did not carry guns. I was shocked when my American-born children were subject to the DARE program over here, where a uniformed and therefore armed policeman or policewoman would come into schools and lecture the classroom about avoiding drugs.

The whole DARE program stunk of control and fear, depriving students of realizing the real reason why it was not a good idea to take drugs, which is their health effects, NOT because of their illegality. IMO, all the DARE program did was instill fear of arrest in children, and even worse, fear of being shot with that gun in the policeman/woman's holster if one did not comply.

I felt so strongly about this forceful, bullying attempt at controlling our children's ability to think critically that I even wrote a formal complaint to my school district and went down town for a televised reading of my case before the school board. One of my additional points was that, as well as being controlling, the illegality of marijuana is very hypocritical considering that guns are legal in America. In other words, it is legal to carry a weapon which can be used to harm or kill someone else in one second, but illegal to carry a substance which might only do harm after many self-inflicted uses over a prolonged time. It seemed and still does seem quite illogical.

So I hope you see that I am not some raving conservative, fundamentalist or puritan prude that you have made me out to be. I am just a mother who cares about her kids, and young people in general. I work in education, where discipline is essential to learning. Kids crave rules, but soon spot those that are unjust. I think that one reason that students "go berserk" with marijuana experimentation when they get to college is because they have been given false, hypocritical ideas at high school through programs like the DARE program. Maybe if they had been taught about the dangers of drugs by doctors, rather than by armed policemen/women, they would be more sensible about refraining from drugs when they reach the freedom of adulthood when they get to college.

Wow, it's this kind of attitude that really causes a lot of problems. Just because you have a gut feeling and want to protect children you jump without looking. The kind of draconian drug laws that we have are causing a lot more harm to peoples children than marijuana possibly ever could. It's on a mass scale that people are being murdered, jailed and of course denied an eduction because of prohibition. Legalization would be a godsend for america.
 
MJ smoking is bad, really bad for your lungs according to this paper, making the evidence of the opposite more questionable.

Yes, smoking anything is very bad for the lungs. But when it comes to cancer, when properly controlled, MJ is actually anti correlated (slightly).
 
Wow, it's this kind of attitude that really causes a lot of problems. Just because you have a gut feeling and want to protect children you jump without looking. The kind of draconian drug laws that we have are causing a lot more harm to peoples children than marijuana possibly ever could. It's on a mass scale that people are being murdered, jailed and of course denied an eduction because of prohibition. Legalization would be a godsend for america.


It probably wouldn't hurt Mexico too much, either.
 
I didn't see it, but on a TV show, probably 10 years ago, a British psychologist said he thought the druggies were 'devolutes'. Worthless long before they started the habit.

My own experience tells me that none of my friends that used drugs made anything of themselves until the out grew the habit. Oh, I've seen successes start using. Some could handle it, others lost everything- after they lost their ambition.

But how can we outlaw something that can be grown in the garden, as easy as growing a tomato plant? Jimmy Carter legalized homebrew, for my own consumption...

This statement bothers me on so many levels, but i will try and sum up by eye rolling without going into pages.

I am one of the most motivated people i know, i have lost 180 pounds, managed to strike out as decent of an acting career as i can in my area, have had articles printed in both local media, and swift, have a 90% plus average in collage , and i have an array of skills that take time and effort to learn that i have achieved a great deal of proficiency in ( knife throwing and magic as examples. And as for putting my money where my mouth is, i have proof of any claims i have made. ). And yes i do on a semi frequent basis smoke pot.



People who don't want to do **** tend to smoke pot, because , well those kind of people like drugs. They already don't want to do anything, and drugs are relatively easy to come by and consume.

But it is a case of all of group X does thing Y not meaning that doing thing Y means being a part of group X.

Your statement ignores all the successful musicians and actors that can openly admit to smoking dope. Unfortunately because our society views it as it does, there are reams of professionals out there who smoke, but cannot " come out of the closet" as the case may be , for fear of people like you branding them as corrupt, incompetent, or in some other way shape or form, unfit.

Saying pot makes people lazy, is about as accurate as saying people who own guns are rednecks. Sure a lot of people who own guns may be rednecks, but it is not the guns that make them rednecks.

It is no different than drinking, some people come to work or school drunk, and fail. That is because they are getting ********** up when they shouldn't be. There is a time and place for getting ********** up, and it isn't at school it isn't at work, hell, it isn't even while studying. If people don't understand that, that is idiocy, not pot.

As an afterthought, i would like to offer a situation that would throw the whole " pot makes one fail at school " claim out the window.

Let's say a person, call him Mr. A, smokes pot. Mr. A. studies his material for hours on end until he feels he knows it, more than that , he feels he has it nearly memorized. Now after this, Mr. A, decides to smoke a joint. Mr. A then writes a sample test, or quizzes himself on the material. Now if mr. A finds he has knowledge of the material while under the influence, Mr. A can rest assured that while not under the influence, his knowledge is going to be better than this. By using a handicap as a benchmark, mr a has guaranteed better than average performance.
 
I smoked a significant amount in my early 20s, and can't imagine it being addictive. Yet it is addictive for 8% of the population. For me personally Mountain Dew is highly (physically) addictive, but a mild mj high was just relaxing. Didn't like getting stoned because I like to think too much on difficult recreational problems. I've seen enough, and studied enough, to know how much BS is involved in the prohibition claims, but that does not mean harmless.

Fact, it's not going to kill you, in fact statistically mj smokers, all else being equal, live longer with less cancer. Though with more breathing difficulty. Demotivational syndrome, very real. And especially bad for youth without an established path in life. Though the users I knew the best, or chose to associate with, seemed immune to this effect, and became professionals and business owners while using.

As I age, I'm considering going back to some moderate use to alleviate some issues. A quarter should last me 4 to 6 months. I just wish I didn't have to feel like I was supporting the violence in Mexico or elsewhere to do so.
 

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