Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RWVBWL]

Greetings Danceme and others,
I was going to preface my posting above with this, but didn't...
Maybe I should have not changed it!

"Phew!
I feel a lot of anger as I read some of the last 24 hours worth of posts...
I hope some people can chill out as everyone debates this brutal murder...
IMHO, it is OK to disagree!"

Anyways,
I need some help, so I'll start here on JREF.etc...

Danceme, you have helped me before. Can you give me any further information about the location of the Meredith Kercher's found cell phones?
Do you know if the Perugia Police ever used metal detectors to comb the surrounding vegatation and look for Meredith's missing keys where the cellphones were found?
If you have any information and will share it, I thank you very much!
RWVBWL

 

[lane99]

...the police failed to report that a file named "Naruto ep 101.avi" was opened at 21:26. If Raffaele watched this file, that would have kept him at home until 21:49 or so at a minimum.

Raffaele and Amanda claim that after this they stayed home and watched a download of the move "Stardust"....

I've read somewhere that Guede's alibi includes an admission that on the night of the murder he was loitering around the cottage waiting for Miss Kercher to arrive home. Is that right? Leaving aside the claim that it was supposedly for a pre-arranged rendez-vous, is it correct that he places himself at the cottage at the time the victim arrived home?

(Which I believe most agree would have been around 2100hrs).

 

[Malkmus]

I've read somewhere that Guede's alibi includes an admission that on the night of the murder he was loitering around the cottage waiting for Miss Kercher to arrive home. Is that right? Leaving aside the claim that it was supposedly for a pre-arranged rendez-vous, is it correct that he places himself at the cottage at the time the victim arrived home?

(Which I believe most agree would have been around 2100hrs).

It's from Rudy's diary:

Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the running around I did, I think it would have been around 8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this, and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place, but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the yard.


Sometime later, here's Meredith, she was smiling, and asked me how long I’d been waiting, and I told her for about one minute. She smiled, then took the keys out of her purse, opened the door, and we entered. There wasn't anyone in the house because it was dark everywhere, in the kitchen, in the living room, then she yelled "Anybody here," to let people know she was back, but there was no answer from the other rooms.

 

[RWVBWL]

Well, still curious about those cell phones,
I grabbed another book, this time Author Barbie Nadeau's book "Angel Face"
and reading the following on page 41, I now find another version of the same event:

Nov. 2, 2007 was a frigid morning in Perugia. Fog had settled in on the Umbrain hills and the damp air was bone-chilling. Around 11:00am the sun started to peek through the haze and Elisabetta Lana went out in her garden on via Sperandio to check on her roses. She heard a strange ringing sound under one of the bushes and decided to call her son Alessandro. The night before, a prankster had phoned to warn that there was a bomb in her toilet, and the elderly Signora Lana was quick to worry. Alessando called the postal police, who came by Elisabetta's just before noon. The two mobile phones they found under the roses were easily traceable.

But wait a second I thought, when I read from page 51 to 54 of "Murder in Italy", it said that Alessandro found 1 cell phone around 9:00am. It also says that Elisabetta Lana then dropped off the first found cell phone and signed a statement at 11:31am at the Postal Police station.
It then says that the other cell phone was found by Fiametta and the maid around 12:00pm...

This is confusing, to say the least!
Now I have 2 different authors stating 2 different possible discoveries of Meredith Kercher's cell phones and the way they were given to authorities
Which 1 do I believe?

It's no wonder we cannot agree on most anything,
for even something as simple as the finding of 2 cell phones has 2 different authors stating completely different scenerios...
Kinda like all of the different theories and and debates I read here and elsewhere:
who do you believe is telling, or in the case above, writing the truth?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[RoseMontague]

They were found at different times in the same general location if I remember from the Michelli report and only one was with the officer when they discovered the body, the other phone with the officer was mistaken for Meredith's second phone but that one was already with the cops at the police station (going on memory). Thoughtful had a picture of the area and it looked pretty wooded. Al-Fakh had a post about how they could have been thrown downward over the rails from a place where the 30064 tower could have picked it up to the discovery spot not covered by that tower but it seemed to me at the time that they would have been heavily damaged if that were the case.

 

[RoseMontague]

That link to the article on false confessions has a link to the details, testimony and transcripts of many cases. Very interesting reading if you get a chance.

http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/librarysite/garrett_falseconfess.htm

http://www.law.virginia.edu/pdf/faculty/garrett/falseconfess/appendix.pdf

The actual study itself is 70 pages long and available here

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID1589123_code492985.pdf?abstractid=1280254&mirid=1

Please read The use of deceptive techniques beginning on page 48 of the study

 

[Chris C]

It is true she made no confession, I would describe it as more of a coerced depiction of a fantasy story. I disagree that they are not comparable, however. The police in some cases are after self-confessions, in other cases as well as this one, they wanted her to confess that someone else murdered Meredith and confess that she was a witness and managed to get her to buckle under the pressure and provide them with what they asked for. I don't see a big difference here between the process involved with the police interrogation.

The thing I dont understand about the confession is this. What did she admit to doing?

 

[Chris C]

Halides1 "There are other problems. Can you imagine two knives being used to stab someone? The stabbers would risk stabbing each other if they did so at the same time. Also why dispose of one knife and not the other?"

I doubt if there was a health & safety officer present to advise them.

Actually the biggest risk of changing knives would be that the victim would get one and stab the attacker.

 

[Chris C]

"The defense could not prove they did not commit the crimes for which they have been sentenced. (piktor)"

Katody, why would you take a quote from a member in this thread and use it as your signature line? It seems the heights of rudeness to me as you obviously are intentionally calling it out as something you found completely stupid. You're certainly allowed to disagree but that type of obvious ridicule of another member doesn't fly here.

I find it funny that you read that quote and assume Katody finds that person to be completely stupid.

 

[RoseMontague]

The thing I dont understand about the confession is this. What did she admit to doing?

She confessed she had made an appointment with Patrick (without telling Raffaele) to take him to Meredith's place and was present (in a different room)when Patrick attacked Meredith but did nothing to stop it. Then she woke up at Raffaele's the next day.

 

[Chris C]

I've read somewhere that Guede's alibi includes an admission that on the night of the murder he was loitering around the cottage waiting for Miss Kercher to arrive home. Is that right? Leaving aside the claim that it was supposedly for a pre-arranged rendez-vous, is it correct that he places himself at the cottage at the time the victim arrived home?

(Which I believe most agree would have been around 2100hrs).

Amazingly, he places himself downstairs at the boys house before meredith arrives home. Which is where you would have to be if you where gonna climb up the wall and into filomena's window.

 

[Malkmus]

Amazingly, he places himself downstairs at the boys house before meredith arrives home. Which is where you would have to be if you where gonna climb up the wall and into filomena's window.

And also that his actions are compatible with someone casing the place. He checked upstairs and downstairs and no one was home. Good opportunity to pull another rock through window/climb-the-wall B&E like at the law office.

 

[Chris C]

She confessed she had made an appointment with Patrick (without telling Raffaele) to take her to Meredith's place and was present (in a different room)when Patrick attacked Meredith but did nothing to stop it. Then she woke up at Raffaele's the next day.

So if it was proved she didn't make an appointment with Patrick, that she didn't take patrick to Meredith's and patrick didn't commit the murder, and that she couldn't have done nothing to stop it. What in the confession proved she has anything to do with murder, even if it was allowed in the court room?

I could say I had a kid with some girl. However, if its proven she has no kid and says she never met me. Does that still mean we had sex. Or does she have to prove she is still a virgin.

When you look at Knox's confession, what in her confession lines up with what she is convicted of?
Her confession, Patrick kills Meredith. Prosecutions theory, Knox kills Meredith.
Yet they ignore every single thing Rudy says when he says a single male attacker kills meredith. He says that without 4 days of interrogation.

 

[RoseMontague]

So if it was proved she didn't make an appointment with Patrick, that she didn't take patrick to Meredith's and patrick didn't commit the murder, and that she couldn't have done nothing to stop it. What in the confession proved she has anything to do with murder, even if it was allowed in the court room?

I could say I had a kid with some girl. However, if its proven she has no kid and says she never met me. Does that still mean we had sex. Or does she have to prove she is still a virgin.

When you look at Knox's confession, what in her confession lines up with what she is convicted of?
Her confession, Patrick kills Meredith. Prosecutions theory, Knox kills Meredith.
Yet they ignore every single thing Rudy says when he says a single male attacker kills meredith. He says that without 4 days of interrogation.

Good point.

 

[Chris C]

And also that his actions are compatible with someone casing the place. He checked upstairs and downstairs and no one was home. Good opportunity to pull another rock through window/climb-the-wall B&E like at the law office.

Yeah if you read the whole thing, him and meredith walked around the house together to see if anyone broke into the house and they didn't notice any broken window. Also they both walked into Knox's room. Which knox's lamp had been moved out of her room. Yes he clearly describes a casing of the apartment, describes the knife that doesn't match the knife from sollecito's apartment, places himself in the other rooms looking for a break in, the bathroom, meredith's room, the floor where he fell, and the kitchen. He describes all this about that night, including the attacker. Claims to not know who sollecito is and all of it was unsolicited by the police. It was voluntary information he described in a letter. All of it was ignored by the prosecution because it doesn't match their theory. Yet all you ever hear about is Knox's confession which WERE PROVEN WRONG. Rudy's statements have not been proven wrong. They were ignored. Even the judge/prosecution have gone out of their way to discredit the 2 jailed convicts in prison, 1 which claims his brother killed Knox, the other is the baby killer.

 

[Danceme]

Danceme, you have helped me before. Can you give me any further information about the location of the Meredith Kercher's found cell phones?
Do you know if the Perugia Police ever used metal detectors to comb the surrounding vegatation and look for Meredith's missing keys where the cellphones were found?
If you have any information and will share it, I thank you very much!
RWVBWL

No RWVBWL, I'm sorry, but I don't know if metal detectors were used or not. There were 10,000 pages of investigation and evidence within which may possibly be described any searches for Meredith's keys. I would find it hard to believe there was no search in the vicinity of the garden given the phones were found there.

I find it funny that you read that quote and assume Katody finds that person to be completely stupid.

".....something you found completely stupid." was what I wrote.

"something" as in the sentence written, not the person! That's a bit of a leap, even for you Chris.

 

[Chris C]

".....something you found completely stupid." was what I wrote.

"something" as in the sentence written, not the person! That's a bit of a leap, even for you Chris.

This is what you wrote.

"The defense could not prove they did not commit the crimes for which they have been sentenced. (piktor)"

Katody, why would you take a quote from a member in this thread and use it as your signature line? It seems the heights of rudeness to me as you obviously are intentionally calling it out as something you found completely stupid. You're certainly allowed to disagree but that type of obvious ridicule of another member doesn't fly here.

Maybe I took it wrong. I've posted my fair share of things that where misread. Heck a few of my comments might have even been stupid. This will be the last time i respond to you on this matter since this is not really what this thread is suppose to be about.
Yet, when you read the entire passage it reads not only does said person find that comment completely stupid but also finds the person completely stupid that made it. Since you talk about how they are being rude to the person and mocking them by posting a comment they made. If you are being rude to someone and ridiculing them over a comment that YOU said they found completely stupid, then in effect you are saying they find that person completely stupid.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks, Danceme

I linked to the appropriate post. Should piktor choose to dissociate himself from that sentence I remove the association without hesitation

If you think it worthy, you should Nominate it for the monthly pith language award. I would second the nomination though I don't believe it has a chance of making the cut give the stiff competition on this board.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Good stuff on Rudy's diary everyone, I'm updating the Larsen list.

Chalk up yet another bit of positive evidence for an early time of death, to contrast with the absolute lack of any positive evidence at all for a 23:30 time of death.

I guess the guilters must believe it's just an amazing coincidence that Rudy's story fits with the stomach evidence and the rest of the evidence putting the time of death in the 21:05-22:00 range?

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Inquiring minds want to know! Can you couch it in flowery phrasing?

A guy called Charles Mudede alleged that an "old friend" who worked with Amanda Knox said the following about her:

"You know," Matthew said, leaning toward me, "a lot of people are saying she is a sweet girl and they can't believe she could have done such a thing. But, to be honest, I'm not surprised she is a suspect. Really. The first time I met her, when I got the job here, she asked me if I was Jewish. I told her I was. She then screamed: 'My people killed your people,' and began laughing hysterically. I didn't know what to say. She just kept laughing about her Germans killing my Jews. After that, I did not like her. She really freaked me out."

Linky.

This quote, despite the fact that it's anonymous and second-hand, gets frequently cited amongst the guilter community as evidence that Amanda was the sort of person likely to commit murder.

If you like you could check out the various threads about Israel on this board to get an idea of the subgroup of a subgroup who might think that it's justified to engage in hatemongering and deliberate deception to attack someone who said what Knox is alleged to have said.

It may sound a bit far-fetched - why would Zionists be worried about an Italian court case? Aren't they more concerned about affairs in the Middle East? However it turns out that debate about the Middle East gets just as vitriolic over there as it does over here. Heck, the Italian wikipedia has banned several sock puppets of a guy called "Fulcanelli" who keeps trying to use his sock puppet army to make sneaky edits to pages about Israel. I cite this purely as evidence that the Italian-speaking Zionist community has an active internet presence.