Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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RoseMontague said:
A smaller knife could have made all of the wounds and the imprint on the bed, but still, Amanda had a rather large bag perfect for carrying rather large kitchen utensils.
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Some sources reported she brought along a colander, a Cuisinart, a toaster oven, a double boiler and several wooden spoons.
 
Supernaut said:
Actually, it ceased to be unfathomable to me a while back - I know EXACTLY what motivates the most vocal and 'pro-active' guilters (who in turn "inspire" legions of nit-witted hangers-on), what it is Amanda (allegedly) said or did to earn their undying hatred, and it has NOTHING to do with the death of Meredith Kercher. Politcal Correctness (and as a corrollory forum rules) precludes expanding any further (as if I haven't already well-and-truly crossed the line, LO-fricking-L).
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Inquiring minds want to know! Can you couch it in flowery phrasing?
 
unlikely

quadraginta said:
So if I were to be able to unearth a case where someone was stabbed by more than one attacker using different knives, then this conjecture of yours would be discarded.

Right? That's the standard of proof we use here, isn't it?
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I put forth reasons to find the multiple-knife scenario unlikely, not impossible.
 
pricking stories and Ockham's razor

There are many possible interpretations of what Raffaele tried to convey in that sentence and why he wrote it. One can argue that he really meant pricking Amanda, or that shocked by the news about the knife he invented a story to rationalize that somehow.

Apparently to some colpevolisti the only plausible explanation of Raffaele's pricking story is that he being guilty of murder wrote what he wrote hoping that it will be picked by the prison officials and will influence his case positively.
To chose that explanation we must assume that he was extremely naive and deluded. It can be, but that's not all. We need to make a lot of assumptions about the crime scenario, many of them controversial. That can be observed in Massei motivation:
carrying kitchen knife for protection, returning it to the drawer instead of disposing, stabbing with multiple knives.

In the end Massei constructed an elaborate scenario and Raffaele's writing about the pricking fits in. But is his guilt the only possible explanation for what he wrote? For some it is and they don't leave any room for a discussion. But some are willing to acknowledge different scenarios. I certainly am.

What turns me away from guilters' theories in the end is that they seem to go against Ockham's Razor; there is nothing in that crime that is not explained more plausibly and with far less postulates by the single perpetrator scenario.
 
halides1 said:
I put forth reasons to find the multiple-knife scenario unlikely, not impossible.
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In addition, it would obviously be easy to find examples of murders where there were two or more attackers wielding a knife each, but I contend that these would almost all be "gang-style" killings which involved a knife fight. Furthermore, in these sorts of multiple-knife killings, the victim is typically stabbed in turn by the various assailants, in lunging attacks to the torso. And on the occasions where stabs are being made simultaneously by two or more assailants, I would wager that they are almost invariably made to differing parts of the victim's body (e.g. the stomach and the back).

I think one would be extremely hard-pressed to find a prior example of a murder where two or even three people each held a knife to the throat of the victim. It's a totally unnatural thing for assailants to do. Instead, one might expect one knife to be placed at her throat, but the other(s) to be held to her back or elsewhere on her torso.
 
Solange305 said:
(msg #7147)
That is about false confessions, not lies here and there to cover up damning evidence. That is not comparable.
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In spite of following this discussion for months, I have yet to see any unambiguous case of "lies" from Amanda or Raffaele - or "damning evidence" against them for that matter. Can you please state what you are referring to?

The investigators, on the other hand, clearly lied several times.
 
Nara Capezzali's bladder

It's curious that a judge, who seems to regard the emptying of a 21 year old stomach as highly variable, is willing to time this crime, almost to the minute, by the filling of a 69 year old bladder.
 
halides1 said:
colonelhall,

I surmise you think that contamination is the least likely explanation for Meredith’s DNA being on the knife. I beg to differ. Contamination is unlikely, in the sense that it happens less frequently than it does not happen. But the lack of blood is very telling, in the professional opinions of the authors and cosigners of the Johnson/Hampikian open letter of 19 November 2009.

Some believe that the knife was cleaned with bleach, and there was still a residue of bleach on the knife. If that were true, finding DNA on the blade would stoke Douglas Adams’ improbability drive for at least six months. Bleach is so potent that when it is diluted to 3% of its commercial strength and used to clean lab equipment of unwanted DNA, failure to rinse it away thoroughly can allow the residue to destroy the DNA of interest in a subsequent experiment, according to a technical bulletin provided by Promega Corp. IMO Contamination is the least unlikely explanation.
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If you're ruling out contamination is it your belief then that the DNA was deliberately planted?

Brooktrout said:
I read Rudi Guede's diary for the first time today. It is clearly the product of a sad young man who has had difficulties in life with parental figures, friendship, and expectations about himself and others.

Did any part of his account involving visiting his friends both before and after the murder check out?

I was surprised at how deeply the sentimentality about his foster family, friends and former life, is mixed up with fantasy.

Clearly, there's something pathological at work here.

Also, at the time it was written, blaming this on Amanda Knox and Sollecito obviously had not dawned on him fully yet. He wonders aloud how Amanda could have slept in the murder scene house, for instance, something he clearly got from the press.
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I agree with your take on Rudy. I definitely feel he was a bit of an outsider. I wonder where he could have read that Amanda slept in the house that night, I don't recall reading it anywhere but his diary. Do you have a link to any news story?
 
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Diastole said:
It's curious that a judge, who seems to regard the emptying of a 21 year old stomach as highly variable, is willing to time this crime, almost to the minute, by the filling of a 69 year old bladder.
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Welcome to the discussion, Diastole. Good point.
 
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"The defense could not prove they did not commit the crimes for which they have been sentenced. (piktor)"

Katody, why would you take a quote from a member in this thread and use it as your signature line? It seems the heights of rudeness to me as you obviously are intentionally calling it out as something you found completely stupid. You're certainly allowed to disagree but that type of obvious ridicule of another member doesn't fly here.
 
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Douglas Noel Adams and DNA

Danceme said:
If you're ruling out contamination is it your belief then that the DNA was deliberately planted?
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Danceme,

No, I must not have made myself clear. The gist of my post was that contamination is the most likely explanation. Secondary transfer and evidence tampering are possible. The only explanation that I think borders on the impossible is the idea that a knife cleaned with bleach could retain usable DNA. That is why I said that such an event could power the infinite improbability drive of the starship Heart of Gold. This was described in Douglas Adam's book, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."
 
Diastole said:
It's curious that a judge, who seems to regard the emptying of a 21 year old stomach as highly variable, is willing to time this crime, almost to the minute, by the filling of a 69 year old bladder.
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Great first post. :D
 
Danceme said:
If you're ruling out contamination is it your belief then that the DNA was deliberately planted?
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halides1 said:
Contamination is the least unlikely explanation.
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Hi, Danceme!

About the quote in my signature:

From what I've seen there are many users quoting others and I don't think it's against rules or rude.

It seems the heights of rudeness to me as you obviously are intentionally calling it out as something you found completely stupid. You're certainly allowed to disagree but that type of obvious ridicule of another member doesn't fly here.
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I never commented on the quote in my signature. What kind of ridicule do you see there? I'm not even adorning it with emots or commentary.
I just found this quote interesting and spot-on as a summary of the case.
 
Danceme said:
"The defense could not prove they did not commit the crimes for which they have been sentenced. (piktor)"

Katody, why would you take a quote from a member in this thread and use it as your signature line? It seems the heights of rudeness to me as you obviously are intentionally calling it out as something you found completely stupid. You're certainly allowed to disagree but that type of obvious ridicule of another member doesn't fly here.
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It isn't as simple as you might think.

Sig Line misquotes
Mods and the MDC requirement
Personal attacks in sigs
Rules about quoting other members in signatures?

Etc., etc., etc.

:)

:boggled:
 
Good day JREF members!
Or night if you are on the other side of the world from me right now!

I need some help, so I'll start here on JREF.
I am curiously wondering if there is a chance that Meredith Kercher's cell phones were thrown from a passing car that might have been leaving the murder scene, by someone other than Rudy Guede.
And so I am looking for further information on the cell phone location.
So far I found this:

The 1st phone, a light colored Motorola, flipped over, it's keyboard resting on the ground, was found in the middle of the lawn, less than 60 feet from the wooded Via Andrea da Perugia road, which wound uphill from Elisabetta Lana's house.

The 2nd phone was found a few hours later while searching the surrounding garden
when it rang somewhere off in the shrubbery. It was under dead leaves and brambles, this time less than 20 feet from Via Andrea da Perugia road.

Pages 53+54 of "Murder in Italy, author Candace Dempsey

I feel that a person walking or running thru the same area would have been able to grasp a slim cellphone and throw it quite a lot farther DOWNHILL than 20 feet, -(which is the distance from the window I look out of right now to the street), or heck even 60 feet, and the person would then probably repeat the task with the other cell phone.
I also feel that a person, such as Rudy Guede, who plays basketball would not have had a thrown cell phone hit a tree or other object while walking or running, even at night, for the guy must surely know how to aim...

With the distance that the thrown cell phones had travelled in mind, I wonder if the cell phones were possibly tossed out of a car window together while traveling on Via Andrea da Perugia road. That makes sense to me. 1 went father than the other, while the other fell off by the wayside...

Does anyone know how close these 2 phones were to each other when found?
Thanks, RWVBWL

PS-Since Meredith Kercher's cell phones were found on Elisabetta Lana's property, does anyone know if the Perugian Police ever used metal detecters to try and look for her missing, and never found, keys there too?
 
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Katody Matrass said:
Hi, Danceme!

About the quote in my signature:

From what I've seen there are many users quoting others and I don't think it's against rules or rude.


I never commented on the quote in my signature. What kind of ridicule do you see there? I'm not even adorning it with emots or commentary.
I just found this quote interesting and spot-on as a summary of the case.
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Ok, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but on first impression it came off as rude to me, knowing you are on one side of the issue and piktor on the other and it seemed to be selected to ridicule piktor's views on the topic. If you say it wasn't meant to be rude perhaps it would have been better to first quote it in a post and say you think this quote summarizes something about the case to you and that you'd like to add it to your sig.
If you read the links quadraginta provided it seems people do routinely take offense at being quoted in signature lines but that also providing the link so people can read for themselves sometimes assuages them.
One of the first things I did when I saw quadraginta's signature line, which I thought was quite humerous, was to click the link and read the background.
 
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