Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Sherlock Holmes]

Page 348 of the Massei report. Read it. Their footprints differ in size by 3mm, despite their shoe sizes.

Please do not pop this mole up again. This is not a matter of opinion. This is not something rational people can differ about. There is absolutely no ambiguity about this issue, or scope to argue both ways. Their footprints differ in size by 3mm.

There are issues we can argue about. There are issues which are still undecided. This is not one of them.

Your quoting the wrong pages, start looking at page 339 and you will see why the print is not Rudy's but Raff's..

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Sollecito's words on the knife

Colonelhall,

For the purpose of this comment let us assume that Sollecito did not prick Meredith and that he was aware of that when he wrote his diary (in fact, I am agnostic on the latter question). Sollecito would thus lose some credibility in my eyes for lying. However, as Charlie Wilkes and Mary H recently addressed, ILE lied or misrepresented the facts many times during the investigation, so their credibility is diminished as much or more.

Consider the converse situation as a hypothetical. Suppose that Kercher’s DNA strong and unambiguous profile were found on the knife. Sollecito says that neither he nor the other defendants killed her, and she never cooked with him. We would certainly not say that his words exclude the knife as the murder weapon. Why would we say that his words identify the knife as the weapon in the actual situation? BobTheDonkey attempted to answer this question in the previous thread, but I found his argument unconvincing at the time and do not recall it well enough to reconstruct it here.

In the previous thread BobTheDonkey also responded to a question of mine about what he meant by Sollecito’s remarks putting the knife into play. He said, “As in, the knife is tied to Kercher. Which, really, is all the DNA evidence does. Since Sollecito's testimony does the same thing, there's no need for the DNA evidence.” The prosecution must not have agreed with Bob's argument, inasmuch as they entered the DNA profile into evidence.

The kitchen knife does not match all of the wounds, nor does it match the knife outline on the sheet, among many other problems. If ILE truly believed that this were the murder weapon, they would have disassembled it to look for blood inside. They did not, and that should tell us something. Sollecito’s words cannot turn a very dubious murder weapon into a good one.

 

[RoseMontague]

Your quoting the wrong pages, start looking at page 339 and you will see why the print is not Rudy's but Raff's..

This would be the same "expert" who couldn't count the rings on the bottom of a tennis shoe. Raffaele's appeal points out that this expert did not even examine this evidence in person, only going by photographs, despite having access to the evidence, unlike the defense expert, who examined the actual evidence in great detail. Massei's report is curiously missing the counter arguments by the defense expert regarding this footprint. Raffaele's appeal makes it quite clear that this footprint belongs to Rudy and not Raffaele.

 

[colonelhall]

Sorry Halides1 your explanation doesn't wash with me.
By the way, you state "The kitchen knife does not match all of the wounds, nor does it match the knife outline on the sheet, among many other problems."
Why is this a problem? I thought that it had been established that more than one knife was used.

This thread must be getting close to 400 pages now. Has anybody agreed on anything?

 

[el buscador]

Sorry Halides1 your explanation doesn't wash with me.
By the way, you state "The kitchen knife does not match all of the wounds, nor does it match the knife outline on the sheet, among many other problems."
Why is this a problem? I thought that it had been established that more than one knife was used.

This thread must be getting close to 400 pages now. Has anybody agreed on anything?

Well, I can think of one, the Postal Police did arrive after Raffaele made his calls to the Carabinieri.

 

[quadraginta]

Sorry Halides1 your explanation doesn't wash with me.
By the way, you state "The kitchen knife does not match all of the wounds, nor does it match the knife outline on the sheet, among many other problems."
Why is this a problem? I thought that it had been established that more than one knife was used.

This thread must be getting close to 400 pages now. Has anybody agreed on anything?

This is the second iteration, there's twice as much in Round One.

So far everyone seems to agree that Meredith Kercher was brutally murdered. That's pretty much it.

And the way things go around here I wouldn't be even the least bit surprised if that were to become a subject of dispute.

 

[Solange305]

Here is an article about a study with many more than that one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/14/us/14confess.html?_r=1&hp

That is about false confessions, not lies here and there to cover up damning evidence. That is not comparable.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the contentious issue of the knives

Sorry Halides1 your explanation doesn't wash with me.
By the way, you state "The kitchen knife does not match all of the wounds, nor does it match the knife outline on the sheet, among many other problems."
Why is this a problem? I thought that it had been established that more than one knife was used.

This thread must be getting close to 400 pages now. Has anybody agreed on anything?

Colonelhall,

The only reason I can see to posit a second knife is the disputed DNA on the blade of Sollecito’s kitchen knife. Depending on whom you believe, the kitchen knife is too big to have made either one or two of the three major wounds, and any sharp knife could have made the third. Massei argued that the large kitchen knife was not plunged to its full depth in making one of the two smaller wounds. I provided several quotes from the defense’s experts who found this idea implausible in comment #5549 on 9 September. Please note that I am treating Frank as the reporter, not the expert (commenters at another site were confused about this, bless their hearts). If I understand Torre’s testimony correctly, one wound had a nearby bruise presumably from the hilt of the knife.

There are other problems. Can you imagine two knives being used to stab someone? The stabbers would risk stabbing each other if they did so at the same time. Also why dispose of one knife and not the other?

Commenters at another site have argued that the bloody knife outline on the bed is not compatible with the smaller knife that had to make one or more of the wounds. I have not studied their arguments in detail and mention it only for the sake of completeness.

If you throw in the last thread (ca. 400 pages), we are closing in on 600 pages, I believe.

 

[el buscador]

This is the second iteration, there's twice as much in Round One.

So far everyone seems to agree that Meredith Kercher was brutally murdered. That's pretty much it.

And the way things go around here I wouldn't be even the least bit surprised if that were to become a subject of dispute.

So, you don't agree that the phone call Raffaele made to the police came before the arrival of the Postal police?

 

[RoseMontague]

The kitchen knife does not match all of the wounds, nor does it match the knife outline on the sheet, among many other problems. If ILE truly believed that this were the murder weapon, they would have disassembled it to look for blood inside. They did not, and that should tell us something. Sollecito’s words cannot turn a very dubious murder weapon into a good one.

A smaller knife could have made all of the wounds and the imprint on the bed, but still, Amanda had a rather large bag perfect for carrying rather large kitchen utensils.

 

[Solange305]

LOL, colonel! You can relax, it was all a joke; I am as feminine as ever. No arm wrestling here, just mental gymnastics.

Mary, I have to give you props for the joke you were referring to, that made me laugh harder than I have in a long time!

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

There are other problems. Can you imagine two knives being used to stab someone? The stabbers would risk stabbing each other if they did so at the same time.

<snip>

So if I were to be able to unearth a case where someone was stabbed by more than one attacker using different knives, then this conjecture of yours would be discarded.

Right? That's the standard of proof we use here, isn't it?

 

[RoseMontague]

That is about false confessions, not lies here and there to cover up damning evidence. That is not comparable.

It is true she made no confession, I would describe it as more of a coerced depiction of a fantasy story. I disagree that they are not comparable, however. The police in some cases are after self-confessions, in other cases as well as this one, they wanted her to confess that someone else murdered Meredith and confess that she was a witness and managed to get her to buckle under the pressure and provide them with what they asked for. I don't see a big difference here between the process involved with the police interrogation.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

This would be the same "expert" who couldn't count the rings on the bottom of a tennis shoe. Raffaele's appeal points out that this expert did not even examine this evidence in person, only going by photographs, despite having access to the evidence, unlike the defense expert, who examined the actual evidence in great detail. Massei's report is curiously missing the counter arguments by the defense expert regarding this footprint. Raffaele's appeal makes it quite clear that this footprint belongs to Rudy and not Raffaele.

I find it amazing that anyone can look at that footprint and think it matches Raffaele's reference print. The big toe is completely different... but it's just like Rudy's big toe.

 

[quadraginta]

So, you don't agree that the phone call Raffaele made to the police came before the arrival of the Postal police?

This isn't about me.

 

[RoseMontague]

Well, I can think of one, the Postal Police did arrive after Raffaele made his calls to the Carabinieri.

How about no bleach receipt? Surely nobody is still hanging on to that one?

 

[colonelhall]

Halides1 "There are other problems. Can you imagine two knives being used to stab someone? The stabbers would risk stabbing each other if they did so at the same time. Also why dispose of one knife and not the other?"

I doubt if there was a health & safety officer present to advise them.

 

[Supernaut]

I think people put too much stock in Guede's statements. Consider the situation he was in when he was arrested. The police had his fingerprints, in blood, in the room with the body. How can he explain that? He had no choice but to admit he was there, so he came up with a fable about a stranger who burst in and did the murder and he got his fingers bloody by trying to save her. Then, when his lawyers brought him up to speed on the situation, the stranger became Raffaele... oh, and yeah, he heard Amanda's voice in the hall.

The crime scene video and photos show that he moved her a few feet after cutting her throat. He put a pillow under her buttocks and used towels to soak up the blood while he assaulted her sexually.

You're probably right - the forensics are unequivocal, so the only question is whether he sexually molested Meredith before or after he cut her throat (or both).

Nonetheless the scenario I suggested is feasible; the sudden horror of the arterial spray all over the room and Guede, precipitating a brief, futile urge to try and un-do what he had done.

However, he probably realised fairly quickly that he DEFINITELY didn't want her to live, for obvious reasons.

At that point he simply continued to yield to the basest of compulsions (masturbating as he groped an unconscious or semi-conscious Meredith?).

It needs to be kept in mind that Guede is obviously not a 'cerebral' being, but an 'instinctual' one - he is not someone who "thinks things through".

Instinctual isn't the same as 'instinctive'. For example, anyone might instinctively use a knife on someone were they in mortal danger - self-preservation is a prerequisite for all sentient beings. Guede instinctually, with NO threat to his life, felt he had nothing to lose in hacking a young woman's throat open.

It needs to be understood - Guede wasn't inured to this viciousness by his life and environment, he wasn't raised in a benighted African war-zone, Somalia or somesuch hell-hole, he grew up in Italy. Circumstance, unfortunately, finally provided him with the opportunity to reveal his fundamental nature (of which he had already provided plenty of warnings) . He did what came naturally to him.

BTW, I'm sometimes aware that someone who was close to Meredith, not least her family, might read commentary like this, and it gives me no pleasure, I can tell you.

Unfortunately it's a neccessity. They can thank the reprobates who have worked so hard to bury the truth of the circumstances of her death, people possessed of an unfathomable, gratuitousness vindictiveness toward two completely innocent people.

Or rather, vindictiveness toward a lovely young European-American woman, someone who manifestly couldn't be less deserving of such malice (expediency dictating that her unfortunate Italian boyfriend be consigned to join her on her hayride-to-hell).

Actually, it ceased to be unfathomable to me a while back - I know EXACTLY what motivates the most vocal and 'pro-active' guilters (who in turn "inspire" legions of nit-witted hangers-on), what it is Amanda (allegedly) said or did to earn their undying hatred, and it has NOTHING to do with the death of Meredith Kercher. Politcal Correctness (and as a corrollory forum rules) precludes expanding any further (as if I haven't already well-and-truly crossed the line, LO-fricking-L).

 

[Mary_H]

Mary, I have to give you props for the joke you were referring to, that made me laugh harder than I have in a long time!

Thank you, Solange! I don't think I've heard back from the gentleman I extended the invitation to.

 

[Supernaut]

Supernault, I hope that you are satisfied that Rudy did indeed come from a rich foster family. I don't think that anyone was "hinting" this to be the case. I thought that it had been well documented.

He wasn't "fostered". The local patrician in question commited himself to act as Guede's 'legal guardian', NOT as a parent.

All of which ended long before Guede killed Meredith, after his betrayal of the family's trust - they found him to be lazy, untrustworthy and a liar, and cut him loose, he thenceforth had NO financial support from them.

Try again. Actually, don't bother.