Schrodinger's Rapist: When is uncritical thought ok?

[TraneWreck]

And I'll call you a troll until you provide the evidence or admit you were lying.

I ask again, evidence for what?

 

[bookitty]

I was thinking about this while I was walking to the store for lunch. I think rape is generally about power through sex. Which is why it is more emotionally horrifying than simple physical assault.

I do have a problem understanding the problem a women might have with a man yelling obscenities at her. Not so much why should have a problem but why she would have a fear about it. This happens at my work all the time with men yelling at men. It's just what is, it sucks, but Oh well you either dwell on it or you move on.

I'm sorry that happens to you because you're right, it sucks. It's also frustrating because if it is part of that environment, you can't really say much about it without looking like the whiner. You have my empathy.

Of course I can't speak for all women, only those I've discussed this issue with. The yelling obscenities at you starts pretty young. Usually by the time you're 13, you've heard every descriptive term for every sexual act from strangers. At that age, you do nothing, you keep walking. It's incredibly frustrating and it never lets up. You do get used to it because it happens so often. But each time it's a bit startling, you're walking along minding your own business and suddenly there's this guy telling you which body parts he has noticed and/or what he would like to do to it. So you've got 10 minutes out of your day that's wrecked and for what?

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Exactly.

If men were telling you all the time you were going to be murdered you'd probably be a little more scared. The fact is you know it's pretty rare for a fight to end in someone dying.

This is why I said living in constant fear isn't necessarily warranted. When I was 19 we used to get into fights on a more regular basis. These days not such much. I don't have as much to worry about. It's about knowing the facts and avoiding situations.

Apparently even suggesting this to a woman is wrong because :"women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted"

Men don't know what it's like to not want to be killed or violently assaulted. That's unique to women.

Except, again: she's not saying that she lives in constant fear, that's your own strawman.

Taking constant precautions doesn't mean living in constant fear. You probably look left and right every time you cross the street (or you should, anyway), but that doesn't mean you're living in terror of being run over by a car. You probably leave some space between you and the car in front for every single car that happens to be right in front of you, but that doesn't mean you're living your life in fear that one will slam the brakes. You probably check your gas level several times a day, but that doesn't mean you're living in fear of the day when you'll run out on the highway. If your job involves any kind of meetings or stuff happening at certain hours, you probably check the time several times as to not end up one hour late, but that doesn't mean it's a constant anxiety. Etc.

And trust me that when I check the inputs to every web form, it's just a reflex and discipline, rather than any kind of constant fear of some potential hacker. I mean, heck, other than a bit of reputation I don't even have anything to lose there.

Basically the whole construct that if she constantly avoids danger, it must mean living her life in fear, is your own big fat non-sequitur. If it bothers you so much, stop doing it.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Wow, you've finally caught up to the rest of us. Nice.

She prefaces the article by saying that for women their daily routine is defined by not wanting to get violently assaulted or murdered, not just when they enter a war zone.

So you are wrong, she is talking about being terrified every moment of her life. That's why her saying everyone is a potential rapist might be a little over the top.

Of course you want to take the discussion somewhere else and make all kinds of silly claims because you just like to argue. Have fun with your strawmen, and remember "No means no!"

Except for the part that it's you who've made all sorts of bizarre claims that aren't actually in the article.

 

[vwgub]

I'm sorry that happens to you because you're right, it sucks. It's also frustrating because if it is part of that environment, you can't really say much about it without looking like the whiner. You have my empathy.

Of course I can't speak for all women, only those I've discussed this issue with. The yelling obscenities at you starts pretty young. Usually by the time you're 13, you've heard every descriptive term for every sexual act from strangers. At that age, you do nothing, you keep walking. It's incredibly frustrating and it never lets up. You do get used to it because it happens so often. But each time it's a bit startling, you're walking along minding your own business and suddenly there's this guy telling you which body parts he has noticed and/or what he would like to do to it. So you've got 10 minutes out of your day that's wrecked and for what?

Actually I don't care if it happen to me. And maybe this is part of the difference I don't care because if it crosses my personal threshold I pull out a big can of whoopass. This actually has nothing to do with how much stronger or bigger the other person is but everything to do with my personal boundaries and other men understand this generally. I've also seen this work for women as well. If they are physically assertive men will generally treat them like another man.


ETA: I should have said equally not like another man

 

[bookitty]

Actually I don't care if it happen to me. And maybe this is part of the difference I don't care because if it crosses my personal threshold I pull out a big can of whoopass. This actually has nothing to do with how much stronger or bigger the other person is but everything to do with my personal boundaries and other men understand this generally. I've also seen this work for women as well. If they are physically assertive men will generally treat them like another man.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Since sexual assault and rape start with an invasion of personal space, trying to set boundaries can be moot. Men have the advantage when it comes to physical strength. If the aggressive action is about power, a woman who fights back is inviting escalation. If a man feels the need to prove his power over that woman, she will be hurt worse the more she fights back. If the man is a stranger, the woman has no way to judge how far he will take it.

One benefit to a woman acting aggressively is that it will draw the attention of other people nearby and they might come to her aid. If you've seen aggression work for women, your presence may have been part of the reason why it was effective. A woman alone with an aggressor is less likely to use this tactic.

 

[Sun Countess]

Beats me but it sounds like a ridiculous premise for saying men are that much different then women.

No, we're really quite alike when it comes to physical and sexual assaults. Size-wise, most women are as big and strong as most men, and of course, we both have the fear of unwanted pregnancy. Not to mention, we both have penises that we can shove into people's mouth or other orifices against their will. Yup, mostly the same.

She prefaces the article by saying that for women their daily routine is defined by not wanting to get violently assaulted or murdered, not just when they enter a war zone.

You know what? My daily routine is defined in some ways because of a fear of assault. I don't go out alone at night, I never go certain places alone, I watch where I park my car, when I use the ATM, etc. etc. I know that I take a hundred more precautions than my husband does, and I'd guess that I take more precautions than you do also. It doesn't mean my life is hardly worth living, or that I feel that I'm living in a war zone. I'm just aware that because of my size and gender, I could be a target in certain situations. So I avoid them. Every Day.

So you are wrong, she is talking about being terrified every moment of her life. That's why her saying everyone is a potential rapist might be a little over the top.

No she's not. She's not talking about being terrified when she's at a mall or at church or at home. She's talking about specific situations where she might be vulnerable.

I do have a problem understanding the problem a women might have with a man yelling obscenities at her. Not so much why should have a problem but why she would have a fear about it. This happens at my work all the time with men yelling at men. It's just what is, it sucks, but Oh well you either dwell on it or you move on.

What are the men yelling at other men? "Hey darling, I can smell you from here. Why don't you move that sweet *ss up here so I can get a better feel." "Whoa, baby, I've got a hard-on that you won't believe. You're not going to keep me hanging, are ya?" "Ooooh, baby, are those tits real? I'd bet they'd be real nice wrapped around my ****."

Those are the comments that women deal with, not every day, and not just when you're under 35. I don't dwell on it, but I can't stand that men like that are breathing the same public air as me.

Are all those guys rapists? Probably not, but I hope you can understand that it could give a rise of fear in a woman walking alone on a street.

ETA: Isn't this actually primate dominance display? While I've never seen the rubbing thing with men on men there are similar behaviors I have noticed.

Funny though, that most men don't rub their groins against other men when they're standing on a train. For some reason, it's usually women who get that particular "pleasure." It's not rape, but it's an assault nonetheless.

 

[Cavemonster]

But this is all true of men as well. Actually I don't know a single man that I know who hasn't been assaulted at some point in their life. The only difference is it isn't sexual. Which maybe gives lie to the maxim that rape is about sex it's about power.

Well, I suppose that depends on what you mean by assault. I've been mugged. One guy held my arms from behind and the other guy frisked me and took my wallet, then they threw me on the ground. Not much pain, not much risk of injury. What they wanted from me was my wallet, and there was no reason for them to hurt me, no reason for me to expect them to hurt me unless they were exceptionally crazy. In case they got caught, it would be highly disadvantageous for them to seriously hurt me.

In the case of rape however, what the rapist wants can't be taken with a minimum amount of violence, it IS a serious amount of violence to penetrate someone against their will.

As a dude, I'm not sure what sort of assaults you're talking about or how that lines up with evidence for the broader trend. (People in this thread aren't taking anecdotal evidence for the article's claim, yours should hold to the same standard) But yes, getting punched is less damaging and less traumatizing than being penetrated against your will.

And I feel pretty confident that very few people want to beat me up just for the hell of it, and frankly, if I'm in a place, at a time of day where that's a serious threat, yes I will be a bit afraid. I will likely take the precaution not to be somewhere skinheads or other gangs could be feeling territorial about late at night.

As a male (and a relatively skinny one) I'm still more likely to be able to overpower a random attacker than an average female.

I could go on with more reasons that a male is less at risk, but I'd like to see you back up and clarify your basic premise before I put more investment in this line of discussion.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Given about 20% of males at any given instant in a population are children incapable of rape, the actual range would seem to be 1/50 - 1/5.
I'd think by the time we reach 1/5, the definition of sexual assault would be so unforgiving that many of the men posting here would have to redefine themselves as rapists. As I have known several hundred men in my life, none of whom (AFAIK) has been charged with rape, I can't help feeling something is wrong with these numbers.

 

[bookitty]

I could go on with more reasons that a male is less at risk, but I'd like to see you back up and clarify your basic premise before I put more investment in this line of discussion.

Very good points. Also, women aren't exempt from non-sexual assault. They can still get mugged, robbed and murdered just like men. It's just that they also deal with a larger threat of sexual assault.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Given about 20% of males at any given instant in a population are children incapable of rape, the actual range would seem to be 1/50 - 1/5.
I'd think by the time we reach 1/5, the definition of sexual assault would be so unforgiving that many of the men posting here would have to redefine themselves as rapists. As I have known several hundred men in my life, none of whom (AFAIK) has been charged with rape, I can't help feeling something is wrong with these numbers.

Just bolding a point where you may be making an error in your thinking.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I know what you mean , prof., but I still don't find these figures likely, even allowing for the low conviction rate. The high end (1/5) just seems incredible and even the 1 in 50 strikes me as improbable. Maybe I just know nice people, but they didn't all seem that nice. (Several have done time, but not for rape. Of course, they'd be unlikely to boast of it.)

 

[Furcifer]

You know what? My daily routine is defined in some ways because of a fear of assault. I don't go out alone at night, I never go certain places alone, I watch where I park my car, when I use the ATM, etc. etc. I know that I take a hundred more precautions than my husband does, and I'd guess that I take more precautions than you do also. It doesn't mean my life is hardly worth living, or that I feel that I'm living in a war zone. I'm just aware that because of my size and gender, I could be a target in certain situations. So I avoid them. Every Day.
No she's not. She's not talking about being terrified when she's at a mall or at church or at home. She's talking about specific situations where she might be vulnerable.

Hence the problem with using "Schrodinger's Rapist" instead of "Schrodinger's Jerk".

Perhaps you don't care if women call men potential rapists. I don't really care either, although I do think this type of thinking my lead to more false accusations. She's perhaps using the term a little casually and basing it on some faulty interpretation of the statistics.

Aside from that the article seems to be a decent way of explaining to men how women may perceive their advances.

 

[bookitty]

Aside from that the article seems to be a decent way of explaining to men how women may perceive their advances.

Great, maybe now you'll send it to your nephew?

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Ah, this thread makes my statistics teacher cry .

I don't want to get involved with that, because I think that discussion is a red herring in the first place. I don't think anyone can offer a rational guideline for one's proper reactions to each percentage of probability. It is still very much subjective.

I think the author's point is a good one, just that the journey there got a tad sidetracked and melodramatic which turned off the male readers she wanted to target. I make that mistake a lot as well .

Not to be misunderstood, I'm not saying she's wrong in any meaningful way. I just think the delivery wasn't particularly skillful, like Dawkins (and there is nothing wrong with that ).

Though, personally, like always I must comment that she talked about "stranger danger" a bit too much for my tastes, but it is understandable since the article is about men approaching a woman.

 

[Soapy Sam]

You know what? My daily routine is defined in some ways because of a fear of assault. I don't go out alone at night, I never go certain places alone, I watch where I park my car, when I use the ATM, etc. etc. I know that I take a hundred more precautions than my husband does, and I'd guess that I take more precautions than you do also. It doesn't mean my life is hardly worth living, or that I feel that I'm living in a war zone. I'm just aware that because of my size and gender, I could be a target in certain situations. So I avoid them. Every Day.

FWIW this describes pretty well how I felt when I was 15-18 and going around alone a lot more than I did as a kid. I feared robbery and assault- albeit not sexual assault.

I think many women might be surprised to realise how afraid many men are , much of the time. The nature of the fear differs, but it's just as real. While men may fantasise that they can take care of themselves, they know their real limits. A teenager with a knife, any two guys , a man on his own has little real chance.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I know what you mean , prof., but I still don't find these figures likely, even allowing for the low conviction rate. The high end (1/5) just seems incredible and even the 1 in 50 strikes me as improbable. Maybe I just know nice people, but they didn't all seem that nice. (Several have done time, but not for rape. Of course, they'd be unlikely to boast of it.)

I think you have to allow for low reporting rate, just as much as the low conviction rate. Also, you disregarded children earlier - what age cut off were you using? Because adolescents are not incapable of rape:

Myth:
"Youths do not commit sex offenses."

Fact:
Adolescents are responsible for a significant number of rape and child molestation cases each year.

Sexual assaults committed by youth are a growing concern in this country. Currently, it is estimated that adolescents (ages 13 to 17) account for up to one-fifth of all rapes and one-half of all cases of child molestation committed each year (Barbaree, Hudson, and Seto, 1993). In 1995, youth were involved in 15% of all forcible rapes cleared by arrest—approximately 18 adolescents per 100,000 were arrested for forcible rape. In the same year, approximately 16,100 adolescents were arrested for sexual offenses, excluding rape and prostitution (Sickmund, Snyder, Poe-Yamagata, 1997).

The majority of these incidents of sexual abuse involve adolescent male perpetrators. However, prepubescent youths also engage in sexually abusive behaviors.

http://www.helping-people.info/articles/myths_and_facts.htm


I was surprised by the numbers at first as a similar survey in the UK put the percentage of women who have been raped at closer to 1 in 20. The biggest difference between them was that the US one is including incidents that happened as children whereas the UK one only counted incidents that happened over the age of 16. If you look at only the adult rapes in the US survey, the figure is about 1 in 10 women which while much higher than the UK figure seems at least in a similar ballpark.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Cut off about twelve. I know there are exceptions, but there was some argument over what the OP meant. The 1:6 assault figure is a lifetime statistic. , but each decision a person has to make is at an instant, so it's the instant population makeup that counts.
Whatever the cut off, some males will be kids, so the relevant figure , whether 1/60 or 1/6 needs to be upped a bit.

I'm in no doubt official stats on rape are almost certainly too low, whether detection, charge or conviction.
By how much- no idea, but I would be deeply sceptical of any figures that suggested 1 man in 5 or 6 was an actual rapist.

I could be way off base, but I'd need to see some evidence. Which is, of course, the difficulty with what tends to be a very private crime.

 

[bookitty]

FWIW this describes pretty well how I felt when I was 15-18 and going around alone a lot more than I did as a kid. I feared robbery and assault- albeit not sexual assault.

I think many women might be surprised to realise how afraid many men are , much of the time. The nature of the fear differs, but it's just as real. While men may fantasise that they can take care of themselves, they know their real limits. A teenager with a knife, any two guys , a man on his own has little real chance.

Again, women have just as much to fear when it comes to robbery and non-sexual assault. But women also have a larger chance of experiencing sexual assault than a man.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Perfectly true. But fear is fear - an experience shared by both sexes. Men find it harder to admit to in public. That does not mean it does not affect their lives.