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Schrodinger's Rapist: When is uncritical thought ok?

Again, women have just as much to fear when it comes to robbery and non-sexual assault. But women also have a larger chance of experiencing sexual assault than a man.

So this is what I am still trying to figure out. Why is sexual assault scarier than any other physical assault? Note I am not trying to say it isn't scarier just trying to understand why it is.
 
Perfectly true. But fear is fear - an experience shared by both sexes. Men find it harder to admit to in public. That does not mean it does not affect their lives.

True. And in a lot of ways the expectation on how men "should" deal with fear makes it harder to accept help. This really should be addressed. But I have to wonder why guys rarely start a separate thread about these things. Instead they wait for a thread that deals with a woman's issue and cram into that.
 
Let me put it more bluntly. Why is getting a dick forcibly shoved up your **** more scary than getting a knife shoved through you heart?


ETA: **** is the bad word for vagina. Trying to be as blunt as possible.
 
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So this is what I am still trying to figure out. Why is sexual assault scarier than any other physical assault? Note I am not trying to say it isn't scarier just trying to understand why it is.

A few reasons. Sexual assault doesn't have to be penetrative to be a violation. Getting rubbed up against on the subway is a fairly mild physical act but the loathing and anger felt by the victim is huge. Because sexual assault is more likely to come from someone known to you, there are broken trust issues as well.

Look at it this way, would you rather have someone beat you up, take your wallet and leave, or have them beat you up and forcibly penetrate you?
 
Let me put it more bluntly. Why is getting a dick forcibly shoved up your **** more scary than getting a knife shoved through you heart?


ETA: **** is the bad word for vagina. Trying to be as blunt as possible.

Because in the first case, you live.
 
Now that I looked it up the statistics are way different for rape to murder so my previous question doesn't hold. It should be getting your face bashed in. Because even give the estimate of unreported rapes (75,000) that make a total of 165,000 rapes per year. There are 850,000 aggravate assault a year, so approximately 7 to 1. And now I've lost my train of thought so I'm going to shut up.
 
A few reasons. Sexual assault doesn't have to be penetrative to be a violation. Getting rubbed up against on the subway is a fairly mild physical act but the loathing and anger felt by the victim is huge. Because sexual assault is more likely to come from someone known to you, there are broken trust issues as well.

Look at it this way, would you rather have someone beat you up, take your wallet and leave, or have them beat you up and forcibly penetrate you?

Well in the former case I would just give them my wallet. If they were intent on causing physical harm for a thrill I would make them pay for every inch.
 
Instead they wait for a thread that deals with a woman's issue and cram into that.

When it is an article addressed to men?

You keep moving the goal posts.

This thread was never about "woman's issues" per se. This thread was about a woman saying she was justified in treating men as potential rapists.

She made a rather false claim that men don't know what it's like to live in fear of being murdered or violently assaulted.

It's time you listen to men and accept the fact that we do. We are subject to violent assault and murder.

Nobody has suggested women aren't the victim of sexual assault to a much greater extent than men. The studies Professor Yaffle cited clearly show women are three times more likely to be sexually assaulted than men.

That certainly doesn't make sexual assault exclusive to women or a woman's issue.
 
I'd rather be beat up than raped, and I'd rather be raped than killed.

I'd like to think that holds true for men as well. If you had to take your pick between being punched in the face or having a penis shoved up your rectum, which would you choose?

Getting beat up doesn't generally put somebody at risk for pregnancy or life-threatening STIs either.

Also, because sexual assault involves something so much more personal, an assault of that nature can really mess with somebody's mind. If somebody uses his penis as a weapon against me, it may make it more difficult to enjoy consensual relations with a more beloved penis - my husband's. Sexual assault distorts what is otherwise an enjoyable act for many people. I don't play "mug me" or "beat me" for fun with my husband (not that there's anything wrong with that).
 
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Let me put it more bluntly. Why is getting a dick forcibly shoved up your **** more scary than getting a knife shoved through you heart?


ETA: **** is the bad word for vagina. Trying to be as blunt as possible.

I would be very shocked if 1 out of 6 men had had a knife shoved through their heart.

There are very few people walking around thinking "Oooh, I just want to plunge this knife into someone" It happens, but it's pretty vanishingly rare. I'm betting that a far greater number of assaults are fights between people who know each other, and robberies gone wrong.

But again, for this to be a valid line of discussion, you really need to reply to this post.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6322332#post6322332
 
Women,The World,and "Shrodinger's" Stranger

Preramble : First I want to affirm that I generally agree with the the substance of the article as I understand it .

That being said,I wonder if the author has inadvertently sown some unnecessary discord by inexactly - I would opine, incorrectly - adapting Schrodinger's original scenario for use in her article :

In the 1935 "Schrodinger's Cat",the existence of the titular feline is stipulated-the 'probability' of finding a cat in the box is 1.What is undetermined is the "state" of the cat-dead or alive.
In the author's scenario a "strange man" is stipulated,with the undetermined state being "threat/nonthreat".I would suggest her title should be ( some variant of) ' "'Schrodinger's' Stranger". IMO,the use of "Schrodinger's Rapist" gives the appearance of affirming the consequent ( Schrodinger's Dead Kitty)-albeit in the title only,not in her expanded explanation.
One problem,as we've seen in this thread,is that 'bout any "state" with a non-zero probability can be substituted for "Rapist" (jerk,d-bag,mugger,killer)-equally "valid" and equally tendentious.("You're Schrodinger's Rapist,remember?"."Oh yeah? well maybe yer "Schrodinger's crack sucking child abusing litterbug!") Too many can play.
[Speculation Alert] : I suspect that to some extent this may be an instance of something I can read and "understand" logically but might "hear" psychologically.i.e.-I can follow her logic and agree with the conclusions-but somehow when I "hear" the statement:
"You are [some modifier] rapist" I go to defcon NOWJUSTAMINUTE.

OK,the " and ( ) keys are getting hot to the touch,must be time for the

Postramble:I hope whatever fussiness w/r/t diction I ve displayed here doesn't give the impression that I disagree with the substance of the article.
 
Hey, did any one of you guys actually read the comments on that article? Because the women there answered every one of the arguments that's been brought up here. Every single one. In great detail.

In the comments:

a. the "this is just like racism" argument is covered, and in a different way than it's been covered here.
b. if any women post that they think the 1 in 6 women are rape victims stat is wrong, it is because, according to their own experience, it seems too LOW. None of them thinks it's incredible or even surprising. (And neither do I, fwiw.) Doesn't that give you pause at all? NONE of the women think 1 in 6 is surprising. Perhaps you think it can't possibly be true because women usually don't talk to men about having been raped...is that in the realm of possibility?
c. the "this is so mean and impolite and I'm just trying to be NICE" argument is covered.
d. the men, by and large, start out refusing to listen to the women trying to tell them about what it is like to be a woman living in the world. I'm willing to bet that gets old fast.
e. the links for where the 1-in-6 stats come from are provided, so all of you saying "yeah, but it might include this" or "yeah, but it might not include that" can actually find out for reals where the numbers come from.


If you do go read the comments, you might be uncomfortable with the way the comments are modded. You might feel that the mods are too quick to ban. I get the feeling that these women have heard these arguments over and over again, and in their own spaces (like their own blogs) they don't need to hear the same stuff AGAIN. So in order to have a safe space to discuss their own issues, they ban the people who come seeking to shame, humiliate, or threaten. They also ban those who refuse to listen, because it is their space and every woman alive has already put up with too much "what you think and feel is irrational and I will tell you why." I mention this because I originally felt they were too quick to ban, until I gave it a little more thought. Actually, I still think they were a LITTLE quick to ban, but I understand why they have such a strict policy.

So go read it, if you have questions or concerns about what you THINK this woman is saying. She and others address everything you've brought up. Comments are closed, which means I was forced to keep my mouth shut and just listen to what they had to say. (Forced to keep my fingers still and just read?)

My 2 cents, since this thread isn't closed: 1 in 6 women has been raped or sexully assaulted. I'm pretty sure that figure doesn't include childhood sexual abuse, either. So when you are approaching the pretty lady on the bus, there's a 1 in 6 chance that she's a survivor of sexual assault. Why do you think it's okay to assume that her risk assessment is irrational? Would you tell anyone else with PTSD that their risk assessment is irrational?

Oh, and one more thing, which is covered in the comments but which I think is too important not to mention here:

The risk assessment is not just "will this man rape me on this bus?" That's a strawman argument. Most rapes are committed by someone "known to" the victim. If you are ignoring her cues and refusing to acknowledge her boundaries, that's a good indication that she doesn't want to know you, not because you're gonna throw her down right that second, but because not respecting her boundaries is the kind of thing that might lead you to rape her later on, when you are "known to" her.

You start out an unknown entity, that's all. Then, by your actions, you make yourself more or less frightening.
 
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Preramble : First I want to affirm that I generally agree with the the substance of the article as I understand it .



In the 1935 "Schrodinger's Cat",the existence of the titular feline is stipulated-the 'probability' of finding a cat in the box is 1.What is undetermined is the "state" of the cat-dead or alive.
In the author's scenario a "strange man" is stipulated,with the undetermined state being "threat/nonthreat".I would suggest her title should be ( some variant of) ' "'Schrodinger's' Stranger". IMO,the use of "Schrodinger's Rapist" gives the appearance of affirming the consequent ( Schrodinger's Dead Kitty)-albeit in the title only,not in her expanded explanation.
One problem,as we've seen in this thread,is that 'bout any "state" with a non-zero probability can be substituted for "Rapist" (jerk,d-bag,mugger,killer)-equally "valid" and equally tendentious.("You're Schrodinger's Rapist,remember?"."Oh yeah? well maybe yer "Schrodinger's crack sucking child abusing litterbug!") Too many can play.

I see your point re: the title not being neutral, but I think the author wants people to see that they are potential threats to others; to own that and change their behavior, so she deliberately picks a non-neutral title. One of the neat things about this deliberate use of a gut-reaction title is that it shocked others in the comment thread into realizing their own potential threat to others. A few women mentioned realizing that they were Schrodinger's Racist. I, too, realized I am Schrodinger's Racist: I work with minority kids, some of whom are wary of me at first. I have to remember that, to them, I'm an unknown entity of a type that has treated them poorly in the past. It's up to me to show I'm not going to do the same. So yes, everyone can play that game. That's the point, to make people realize how their behavior affects others. Putting it into a provocative form made me feel uneasy-- I don't want strangers to see me as a potential threat!--but I think that's the point.

Gah, I'm so tired and this post is not very coherent, but I found the comment thread for the original post fascinating and I wanted to share.
 
Hence the problem with using "Schrodinger's Rapist" instead of "Schrodinger's Jerk".

Perhaps you don't care if women call men potential rapists. I don't really care either, although I do think this type of thinking my lead to more false accusations. She's perhaps using the term a little casually and basing it on some faulty interpretation of the statistics.

Aside from that the article seems to be a decent way of explaining to men how women may perceive their advances.

Except she isn't using any faulty interpretation of statistics, she's using a real one for that 1 in 60 figure, and makes it very clear what she means. It's just you who seem to have a problem that someone even consider that a stranger could, possibly, have a 1 in 60 chance of being a rapist. Because that's all that "potential" means.

And I still don't see you addressing that, you just do an act of repeating the same strawmen and non-sequiturs if that gives you some self-righteous soapbox from which to tell women what to think and how to live their lives.

I'd maybe even see a point if it were based on something she actually says. But doing your own slew of fallacies to accuse someone who doesn't of being illogical, is kinda funny. In a sad clown kinda way.
 
Yah on the bus during rush hour.:rolleyes:

Except again that's your deliberate distortion of the problem. She's not saying that she expects the guy to rape her right there on the bus, she's saying she's not going to be picked up by and start a relationship with someone giving the signals that they might override her saying "no". She's saying you're not going to end up dating her, if you give this and that signal.

And letting oneself be picked up by someone like that actually moves it in the other risk category there, namely risk from someone she now knows. If she let you date her when you come across as a potential rapist, then it would no longer be in the bus or by a complete stranger when/if it happens.

Pretending that it's strictly about risk right there on the bus is either incredibly dishonest or incredibly stupid. Or, I suppose, it could also be both.

You just don't understand the stats and instead want to foster an irrational fear of men in all women. It's obvious you have an agenda and some emotional involvement. You may want to admit this and remove yourself from the discussion because you're trying to take it in another direction instead of just considering the facts.

Oh, goodie, appeal to motive too, _and_ the troll trope of demanding that the other admits defeat. Going for the full set of fallacies, or what?

Again, for someone accusing others of being illogical, you sure make a show of using broken logic.
 
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AFAIK a rapist is a person who commits 1 rape. She says "1 in 6 men are rapists, but let's say they commit 10 rapes each (I pulled that out of my arse, it's that shocking), then it's 1 in 60"

Except that's not what she actually says. And yes, I've actually just re-read the article, looking for such a "1 in 6 men are rapists" and there is none. The calculation starts at, and this is the actual quote, "One in every six American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime" not at "1 in 6 men are rapists."

You accuse TraneWreck of being a liar, but there you flat out make up a lie as a quote to base your self-righteous BS on.
 
Cut off about twelve. I know there are exceptions, but there was some argument over what the OP meant. The 1:6 assault figure is a lifetime statistic. , but each decision a person has to make is at an instant, so it's the instant population makeup that counts.
Whatever the cut off, some males will be kids, so the relevant figure , whether 1/60 or 1/6 needs to be upped a bit.

I'm in no doubt official stats on rape are almost certainly too low, whether detection, charge or conviction.
By how much- no idea, but I would be deeply sceptical of any figures that suggested 1 man in 5 or 6 was an actual rapist.

I could be way off base, but I'd need to see some evidence. Which is, of course, the difficulty with what tends to be a very private crime.

Actually, thing is, we do have some statistics. See, for example the link posted before by SOdhner: http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/

In that survey about 6% of men basically self-identified as having committed or attempted rape at least once. That's a little over 1 in 16.

We're talking real rape too, not just flashing or groping someone. We're also not talking about something just maybe misjudged by the victim, as the perps themselves judged it as being use of force or threat of harm.

So while it's not the "1 in 6" strawman that sadly got picked along as the thread rolled by, but it's freaking 1 in 16. Even the author's 1 in 60 estimation, actually UNDERestimates the risk by almost 4 _times_.
 
Preramble : First I want to affirm that I generally agree with the the substance of the article as I understand it .

That being said,I wonder if the author has inadvertently sown some unnecessary discord by inexactly - I would opine, incorrectly - adapting Schrodinger's original scenario for use in her article :

In the 1935 "Schrodinger's Cat",the existence of the titular feline is stipulated-the 'probability' of finding a cat in the box is 1.What is undetermined is the "state" of the cat-dead or alive.
In the author's scenario a "strange man" is stipulated,with the undetermined state being "threat/nonthreat".I would suggest her title should be ( some variant of) ' "'Schrodinger's' Stranger". IMO,the use of "Schrodinger's Rapist" gives the appearance of affirming the consequent ( Schrodinger's Dead Kitty)-albeit in the title only,not in her expanded explanation.
One problem,as we've seen in this thread,is that 'bout any "state" with a non-zero probability can be substituted for "Rapist" (jerk,d-bag,mugger,killer)-equally "valid" and equally tendentious.("You're Schrodinger's Rapist,remember?"."Oh yeah? well maybe yer "Schrodinger's crack sucking child abusing litterbug!") Too many can play.
[Speculation Alert] : I suspect that to some extent this may be an instance of something I can read and "understand" logically but might "hear" psychologically.i.e.-I can follow her logic and agree with the conclusions-but somehow when I "hear" the statement:
"You are [some modifier] rapist" I go to defcon NOWJUSTAMINUTE.

OK,the " and ( ) keys are getting hot to the touch,must be time for the

Postramble:I hope whatever fussiness w/r/t diction I ve displayed here doesn't give the impression that I disagree with the substance of the article.

Yep, I can see that the author didn't follow exactly the naming convention of the title's inspiration, and that the word rapist in this context can elicit such a response, regardless of the modifier. I think the word rapist is in some sense though, necessary there for the thrust of the article, to bring home the point that rape is the ugly specter thats looming over these interactions.

The very first words in the article are assuring the male reader that she knows that "You" far from being a rapist are a real nice guy with very good intentions. Anyone who can read through that and still feel as though she is calling them a rapist isn't really reading.

Yes, I absolutely see how this construction and word choice can turn off some male readers, but I think it's needed to make the point very clear. When you approach a strange woman and ignore her personal space, her clear cues about her desire for privacy etc. She's not just annoyed by what a jerk you are, you are a potential rapist/date rapist whatever. Skipping that word or making it much less prevalent in the article would disguise that fact and some guys might easily read it and say "Oh, some guys can be jerks and she doesn't want to talk to a Shrodinger's Jerk, but I'm a nice guy, so it's all ok"

Yeah, some of the audience will sail past the modifier and get offended, but I think a weaker version of the assertion would also cause a lot of men to miss the point. No piece of writing especially about anything approaching controversy, is going to have a perfect construction that will appeal to all readers. I think the author chose the more effective way overall.
 

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