Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Sherlock Holmes]

How did Sollecito get his dna on the clasp and not on the bra? Or the body, Or anywhere else in the room. Better yet, it hasn't even been proven its his dna. How did the other 3 people get their dna on the bra clasp.

Oh, I don't know, maybe he left some DNA when he touched the clasp, and maybe he didn't leave any DNA when he touched the other things. I'm just guessing here at this point though...

 

[Matthew Best]

There was a possible semen stain which was impossible to date; it was not Rudy's.

Are you, by any chance, the same loverofzion who complained recently about people not citing their sources? I think your exact words were something like "You are picking things out of the air unless you footnote and prove sources."

Perhaps you might consider taking these words, which are, after all, your own, to heart and provide a source for the above? In other words, please demonstrate that the possible stain which was not tested was nothing to do with Guede. Thank you.

 

[katy_did]

That’s how he gets his DNA on it. They break the window, mess up the room, try and make it look like a break-in turned rape/murder. They don't know Rudy did all he did, like Rudy said, Meredith had her pants on when he left. Even Amanda's lite in the room is from RS cutting off the bra and looking for the clasp, Amanda came in to help, but not until RS covered Meredith's body with the duvet. Amanda and RS didn't even see the body until somewhere between 11 and 11:30, the Scream, was actual Amanda when she walked in Meredith’s room.

And yet, the prosecution's claim that the bra was cut some time after death and that the scene in the bedroom was 'staged' in any way was rejected in full by Massei, wasn't it? Presumably based on the evidence (or lack thereof) examined in the closed sessions of the trial. Given that Massei only rejected elements of the prosecution case proven beyond doubt to be false (the 112 call claim, Kokomani and Gioffredi's testimonies) and considered other evidence to be credible which was arguably just as suspect (Quintavalle and Curatolo instantly spring to mind) surely the fact he rejected in full any staging of the crime scene is a pretty strong indication there was no evidence to support that theory?

 

[katy_did]

They were sighted in the park looking down onto the cottage AFTER the witnesses heard a piercing scream and sounds of running footsteps (more than one person).
This was AFTER they had brutally stabbed Meredith and locked her in her room.

No, the theory goes that Nara heard a piercing scream at 23.30, therefore after Curatolo is supposed to have seen them looking at the cottage. Or technically, at the same time as Curatolo is supposed to have seen them, given he said he saw them from 21.30 to just before midnight.

Someone on PMF brought up an excellent point about Curatolo, actually: if, as he says, he saw them hanging around the square for 2 hours, how is it that not one other person saw them? Particularly if, as he said in his first statement, there were students dressed as witches wandering around the square at that time. After all, Massei says Amanda went to the store on her own the next morning at 7:30 so as not to be recognized, arguing that she and Raffaele together would have been more recognizable (um...OK). Therefore, wouldn't someone have been very likely to recognize them - or at least notice them - during the 2 hours they're supposed to have spent hanging around in the square?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

And yet, the prosecution's claim that the bra was cut some time after death and that the scene in the bedroom was 'staged' in any way was rejected in full by Massei, wasn't it?

I don't know if it was, regardless it doesn't matter, Massei got a lot of this wrong.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

No, the theory goes that Nara heard a piercing scream at 23.30, therefore after Curatolo is supposed to have seen them looking at the cottage. Or technically, at the same time as Curatolo is supposed to have seen them, given he said he saw them from 21.30 to just before midnight.

Someone on PMF brought up an excellent point about Curatolo, actually: if, as he says, he saw them hanging around the square for 2 hours, how is it that not one other person saw them? Particularly if, as he said in his first statement, there were students dressed as witches wandering around the square at that time. After all, Massei says Amanda went to the store on her own the next morning at 7:30 so as not to be recognized, arguing that she and Raffaele together would have been more recognizable (um...OK). Therefore, wouldn't someone have been very likely to recognize them - or at least notice them - during the 2 hours they're supposed to have spent hanging around in the square?

And why didn't anyone see a girl with a mop and bucket on the morning of the second, I can understand the night before, nothing out of the ordinary, but a mop and bucket two seperate times in the morning on the day the body was found......

 

[Malkmus]

She was demoted to distributing flyers for Patrick Lumumba's bar, and Meredith was offered the job of bartending.

You're still wrong, even though you've shifted the goalpost from Amanda being "fired" to "demoted". Patrick's text to her that night telling her not to come in because it wasn't busy enough proves she wasn't just handing out flyers. Obviously, the bar not being busy has nothing to do with flyers. And if Meredith had the bar-tending job she would have been the one that was supposed to go in that night.

So now that we know she wasn't "fired" or "demoted", what was Amanda's motive? I suppose you'll say her being told not to come in that night sent her into a furious rage at Meredith...

 

[Malkmus]

It was part of the staging and moving of the body; AK and RS wanted it to look as if it were a random act of violence by an intruder.

So cutting off the bra makes it look like an intruder? After Rudy assaulted Meredith sexually, stabbed her, and stole money from her purse, Raf and Amanda decided that cutting her bra off would throw LE off their scent?
We know Rudy had his way with Meredith because his DNA was inside her vagina and possibly elsewhere. Is it hard to believe that forcefully removing her bra was part of that act?

 

[Malkmus]

That is just plain ridiculous at this point.
Two different knives were used and there were stabbing marks on both sides of her neck.
Is that the doing of one man?

The large kitchen knife was too big too have caused all the wounds to Meredith. That doesn't mean a smaller knife could not have caused them all.

 

[Malkmus]

The labs were up to snuff;

Cite?

From what we do know about Stefanoni's rogue LCN DNA testing and her collection methods at the crime scene we can say the opposite of what you are claiming.

 

[Kestrel]

So cutting off the bra makes it look like an intruder? After Rudy assaulted Meredith sexually, stabbed her, and stole money from her purse, Raf and Amanda decided that cutting her bra off would throw LE off their scent?
We know Rudy had his way with Meredith because his DNA was inside her vagina and possibly elsewhere. Is it hard to believe that forcefully removing her bra was part of that act?

Rudy removing Meredith's bra doesn't fit with the presumed guilt of AK and RS. Therefore, the prosecution has to claim that it didn't happen that way.

 

[Malkmus]

That’s how he gets his DNA on it. They break the window, mess up the room, try and make it look like a break-in turned rape/murder. They don't know Rudy did all he did, like Rudy said, Meredith had her pants on when he left.

But we know that's not true since he his DNA was found inside her. At some point that night Rudy had Meredith's pants down.

 

[RWVBWL]

There was no semen evidence of Rudy Guede in that cottage.
There was a possible semen stain which was impossible to date; it was not Rudy's.
And yes cutting off the bra would make it look as if it had been a sex crime by the selfsame intruder who "burgled" Filomena's possessions.


What part don't you understand?

Hi LoverofZion,
Well, since I have always been curious of this stain, which I first saw a looong time ago on Frank Sfarzo's Perugia Shock, I am now even more curious, heck, even extremely curious about your statement that this stain, if it is possibly semen,it was not Rudy's.

I even bet another poster here, Fulcanelli, a case of beer that it is a semen stain, since he believes it is something like vaseline...

So please tell me,
how do you know that, if it is indeed a semen stain, it is not Rudy's?
Has it been tested, yet, in this brutal murder, and rape, of Meredith Kercher?

I'm curious in Los Angeles,
so I await your reply.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

But we know that's not true since he his DNA was found inside her. At some point that night Rudy had Meredith's pants down.

Open, not necessary down - there is no proof either way, both are possible but the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of what all 3 have said so far, can or could be true.

 

[Malkmus]

Open, not necessary down - there is no proof either way, both are possible but the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of what all 3 have said so far, can or could be true.

And my point is that we know Rudy did sexually assault Meredith and that removing her bra and pants fits in with that scenario. I don't see why Amanda and Raf would have felt the need after the fact to make it look more than what it actually was when it's perfectly reasonable to assume those things were part of Rudy's assault.

 

[RWVBWL]

If "the scream" was made by Knox reacting to seeing Meredith's body - as opposed to being made by Meredith while being attacked - then which two people were heard "running up the metal stairs and along the gravel pathway" just after the scream? Are you suggesting the Knox's scream caused her and Sollecito to run away from the house in different directions? Or are you suggesting that part of Nara's witness testimony is correct and part is incorrect?

_________________________________________________________________
Hi LondonJohn,
I've been outta the loop for awhile.

I am also curious about someone else who was seen running that night.
Who was it that Miss Allessandra Formica saw that night running away from the area around 10:30pm that night.
From what I recall, after hearing of the brutal murder of Miss Kercher, Miss Formica went to the police on her own behalf and reported what she saw that night.

Strangely, Mr. Antonio Curatolo, who says he was there in the same general area that night too, and saw Miss Knox and Mr. Sollecito hanging around, DID NOT report this information to the police the VERY NEXT DAY when the murder was discovered and he saw the investigation begin:

"Hey guys, I saw a guy and a girl last night hanging around, watching the house, it looked suspicious. You might wanna check them out. They were wearing", etc.

Incredibly Mr. Curatolo, whom had been a police "witness" in another murder case years earlier, didn't do this,
and wasn't he "prodded" by a newspaper reporter a year later to come forward?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

 

[tsig]

Of course. Please tell me why you find it selectively credible. In other words, please explain why it is credible when it talks about the putative demotion but not when it talks about Lumumba's incarceration.

Can you give me a citation on the distribution of flyers, preferably one that would explain why he needed this particular service, what it paid, and how many hours per week it entailed? I asked tsig about the flyers yesterday and received no response.

Could you cite the post where you asked me about flyers because I don't remember it and a quick backscan didn't show any.

 

[Kestrel]

_________________________________________________________________
Hi LondonJohn,
I've been outta the loop for awhile.

I am also curious about someone else who was seen running that night.
Who was it that Miss Allessandra Formica saw that night running away from the area around 10:30pm that night.
Interestingly, from what I recall, after hearing of the brutal murder of Miss Kercher, Miss Formica went to the police on her own behalf and reported what she saw that night.

Strangely, Mr. Antonio Curatolo, who says he was there in the same general area that night too, and saw Miss Knox and Mr. Solecito hanging around, DID NOT report this information to the police the VERY NEXT DAY when the murder was discovered and he saw the investigation begin:

"Hey guys, I saw a guy and a girl last night hanging around, watching the house, it looked suspicious. You might wanna check them out. They were wearing", etc.

Incredibly Mr. Curatolo, whom had been a police "witness" in another murder case years earlier, didn't do this, and wasn't he to be "prodded" by a newspaper reporter a year later to come forward?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

Curatolo showed up a few weeks after the murder. And yes, he had been a key prosecution witness in an earlier murder trial and another trial of some kind.

 

[RWVBWL]

Curatolo showed up a few weeks after the murder. And yes, he had been a key prosecution witness in an earlier murder trial and another trial of some kind.

_________________________________________________________________

Hi Kestrel,
Thanks for the timeline reminder.
I do recall discussing Mr. Curatolo with a few regulars here, such as Sherlock Holmes, Fulcanelli, and Stilicho back in May. So refreshing my memory, I googled Curatolo and found some old links to that discussion:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176868&page=9

After re-reading Frank Sfarzo's early posts on Mr. Curatolo, I still can not believe that the court actually believed his testimony.
I quote: "This witness has been defined very credible but the fact itself that he called Giornale dell'Umbria instead of the police tells all about his credibility."

Link: http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/04/you-too-superwitness.html

More here:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/blog-post.html
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/04/toto-witness.html

A guy, who witnessed a murder and testified about it in 2001, has possible info about another 1 and DOES NOT first contact the police, but a newspaper. Right...
RWVBWL

 

[LondonJohn]

_________________________________________________________________

Hi Kestrel,
Thanks for the timeline reminder.
I do recall discussing Mr. Curatolo with a few regulars here, such as Sherlock Holmes, Fulcanelli, and Stilicho back in May. So refreshing my memory, I googled Curatolo and found some old links to that discussion:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176868&page=9

After re-reading Frank Sfarzo's early posts on Mr. Curatolo, I still can not believe that the court actually believed his testimony.
I quote: "This witness has been defined very credible but the fact itself that he called Giornale dell'Umbria instead of the police tells all about his credibility."

Link: http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/04/you-too-superwitness.html

More here:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/blog-post.html
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/04/toto-witness.html

A guy, who witnessed a murder and testified about it in 2001, has possible info about another 1 and DOES NOT first contact the police, but a newspaper. Right...
RWVBWL

Hey RW! Good to see you back around again!

Maybe some "expert" could conduct a statement analysis of Curatolo's statements to the newspaper and the police. It might make for interesting reading

(By the way, "statement analysis" falls into the same realms of pseudoscience as polygraph testing or graphology. Occasionally (but only occasionally), things like these can be used as tools to help focus an investigation, but they have next to no true probative value in themselves.)