Merged Teacher leads kindergarten class to vote boy with Asperger's out of class

[Skwinty]

So now we are all photons.

 

[Dave Rogers]

It seems to me very much a matter of opinion at the moment whether there's a single continuum that encompasses autism and normal; different experts I've spoken to have different views, and I certainly see myself as somewhere near the autistic end of the normal part of the continuum, as I share a very large number of traits and interests with my son who is very much on the autistic continuum. However, a point to note is that autism is a developmental disorder; people with autism go through the normal developmental stages, but in a sufficiently unusual order to cause them difficulties. Viewed in that sense, it's almost tautological to say that autism and normal are on the same continuum, because no two people go through developmental stages in exactly the same sequence. There is no clear point at which one's development becomes sufficiently disordered to be recognised as abnormal, simply a gradual shading from normal to autistic.

Dave

 

[Skwinty]

I will go and buy this book:

Asperger Syndrome and Difficult Moments: Practical Solutions for Tantrums, Rage, and Meltdowns by Brenda Smith Myles and Jack Southwick.

 

[Checkmite]

You've actually trimmed a couple of those, which seems slightly dishonest. Number two, for example, was a statement that Aspergers is not a disabling condition. I took exception to the certainty expressed, when it is considered a disability, as you note, but is also the topic if debate as to the worth of the label 'disability'. It is not a throw away term if you are experiencing. The word 'affliction' is rather loaded too, don't you think? Or is it the people who use words rather the people they are used about (or at, or against) who now get to decide how offensive they are? I'd rather you didn't say I was 'afflicted' with Aspergers, I will take offence.

For number 1, 'mental illness' is not a throw away term either and is not particularly helpful when discussing Asperger's. Certainly, in the UK, the mental health services don't consider it to be under their umbrella, despite the comorbid symptoms of depression and anxiety. Of course, changing terms does not change attitudes, but the general understanding of mental illness tends toward delusional thinking, which is not a characteristic of Aspergers.

It seems to me that you have a problem with people discussing your condition in a clinically-detached way. Seriously - that's your problem, not mine. I have PTSD. I take medicines for it, even. It's a mental illness. Literally: it's an illness that affects the way the mind works. Terms like "mental illness", "affliction", "condition", "disease"...these are neutral terms and they're objectively accurate. They're not pejoratives, they're not slurs. I didn't call autistic individuals "a bunch of retards" or anything of that nature. If you have a certain way you'd like me to refer to the condition that's fine and its reasonable to air your preferences - but I'm not going to be badgered into apologizing for using medically-accurate terminology just because somebody I don't know who happened to be listening in would rather it be called something else. That's a completely unreasonable demand.

3. Not every neurotypical person is articulate. Nor is every Aspergian. We are not an homogenous group. I find it offensive to be demoted from an individual to a syndrome or disease or illness or affliction (because as you say, whatever term you use the attitude is still offensive).

Well, patients who have Asperger's Syndrome have to have some things that can be said to be true of all of them, otherwise it's pointless to say they all have Asperger's Syndrome. That's what a "syndrome" is, a set of signs and symptoms that always go together in patients who have it. What is the diagnostic criteria - the standard that physicians use - have to say about individuals with Asperger's? Amongst the positive symptoms, there are other qualities:

D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years).

E. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.

In other words - they can talk, they can converse. They are capable of oral communication that people around them can understand without difficulty. Isn't that what "articulate" means? It's accurate - so again, I shouldn't have to apologize for using it.

5. "Not learning or participating in day-to-day tasks and activities" - which take place in a classroom, a social setting, where people interact. Difficulties in social settings invariably lead to difficulties in tasks or activities in those settings. There are also other aspects of aspergers which will impinge on learning or participating in tasks or activities where no consideration is made for the autistic mind.

Well hey, you self-identify as having Asperger's. You seem well-spoken (I hope you don't find that offensive). You seem capable of being able to debate here at a skill level indistinguishable from anyone else in this thread. How old are you? What allowances or accommodations were made for your autism in your primary school classes that allowed you to develop into the fine, adjusted person you seem to be today?

Note: I'm asking this because you are implying that some kind of special consideration is required to enable a child with Asperger's to properly learn or complete tasks properly. The DSM-IV suggests that's not the case. If you have a better perspective (being a patient, after all) and would like to offer to correct such of my statements as you feel are incorrect, that's also great and I'll accept any correction - but I'm not going to apologize for using the DSM as my guidepost absent any other information at the time.

6. A teacher is not, or should not be, an untrained observer.

Well that's fine, but if you disagree with the way teachers are or are not trained today that's not something I need to apologize for.

I swear, this has to be the first time in my life that I've ever seen somebody get offended at being called articulate, capable, and intelligent, much less demanded that I apologize for referring to them in such positive terms. Who are you, Rodney Dangerfield? Honestly: how would you rather be described?

 

[dirtywick]

It seems to me that you have a problem with people discussing your condition in a clinically-detached way. Seriously - that's your problem, not mine. I have PTSD. I take medicines for it, even. It's a mental illness. Literally: it's an illness that affects the way the mind works. Terms like "mental illness", "affliction", "condition", "disease"...these are neutral terms and they're objectively accurate. They're not pejoratives, they're not slurs. I didn't call autistic individuals "a bunch of retards" or anything of that nature. If you have a certain way you'd like me to refer to the condition that's fine and its reasonable to air your preferences - but I'm not going to be badgered into apologizing for using medically-accurate terminology just because somebody I don't know who happened to be listening in would rather it be called something else. That's a completely unreasonable demand.

Incidentally, retarded is also a clinical term. A lot more baggage on that one though.

I think one of the problems with non-medical professionals (even trained ones like a teacher) is the age of the child. The rate of development for young children is so varied that the difference between observing a disability and a child simply behind the curve could be confusing. Further, I would assume there are laws in place not to treat children differently (which basically means disciplining them appropriately for bad behavior) until they are formally diagnosed.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I have PTSD. I take medicines for it, even. It's a mental illness. Literally: it's an illness that affects the way the mind works. Terms like "mental illness", "affliction", "condition", "disease"...these are neutral terms and they're objectively accurate

And if they are to be used accurately, 'mental illness' should not be used to describe Asperger's Syndrome. It's no more a mental illness than an amputated leg is a physical illness. If you're going to insist on accuracy, please employ it yourself.

In other words - they can talk, they can converse. They are capable of oral communication that people around them can understand without difficulty. Isn't that what "articulate" means? It's accurate - so again, I shouldn't have to apologize for using it.

Again, this demonstrates startling ignorance of Asperger's Syndrome. People with any autistic spectrum disorder must possess the full triad of autistic impairments, and one of these is impairment of social communication. People with Asperger's are capable of using a wide range of language and vocabulary, but can still fail to be 'capable of oral communication that people around them can understand without difficulty', not because they don't have the words to express the ideas, but because their choice of ideas to express is so unusual that what they say doesn't always make sense to the person they're talking to. If you try and pretend that people with Asperger's are entirely capable of oral communication just because they have good language and vocabulary, then you're falling into the same error as this teacher; you're trying to deny the reality of ASD's because you don't understand what they are.

Note: I'm asking this because you are implying that some kind of special consideration is required to enable a child with Asperger's to properly learn or complete tasks properly. The DSM-IV suggests that's not the case.

Your impression is, again, not just wrong, but stunningly wrong. You're suggesting that children with Asperger's have no special educational needs, on the basis of a superficial and uninformed reading of DSM-IV. Show me where it says that no kind of special consideration is required to enable a child with Asperger's to properly learn or complete tasks properly. I suggest you Google "Aspergers special educational needs" for evidence that, in fact, Asperger's is almost universally recognised as a condition that imposes a wide range of special educational needs. In the UK, a diagnosis of Asperger's will automatically lead to some form of SEN provision.

And incidentally, going back to DSM-IV, what do you think is meant by "The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning"? That there's nothing difficult for people with Asperger's, and that everything in the classroom will be just fine?

Dave

 

[Skwinty]

I agree that children who suffer from AS should have special needs classes. It is also unfair on the "normal" kids to have one in the "normal" class as their behaviour will disrupt the learning process.

Now I use quotation marks for normal because we all know their is no correct definition of normal.

In my opinion, and I am not religious, mankind is imperfect. period.

 

[GreyArea]

If you have a problem with a particular child, you refer the child to a higher authority, and remove them from the classroom environment in the meantime.

Portillo did just that.

Portillo and children in the class said Alex was pushing a table up with his feet while he was under the table. She got the school resource officer to remove Alex from the classroom. It was the second discipline referral for Alex that day, the report said.

After Barton returned, Portillo had the other kids tell him how his actions had made them feel. "'he felt that if (Alex) heard from his classmates how his behavior affected them that it would make a bigger difference to him, rather than just hearing it from adults,' according to the report."

TCPalm, May 29, 2008
http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2008/may...-side-incident-which/?partner=yahoo_headlines

 

[Bluegill]

Oops, wrong thread! sorry.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Sigh.....I thought the teacher bashing threads here at the JREF didn't begin until after Labor Day.

Ah, ok, so the same teacher is still being bashed after two years.

"Bashing" implies undeserved criticism. Do you believe the criticism toward this teacher is undeserved?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Portillo did just that.

We know she did the second bit. We don't know whether she referred the issue up the line, or even whether there was anyone to refer it to. It's also strange that she did it the way she did; she didn't remove him from the classroom in any planned or structured way, she tricked him into leaving briefly then sprung a nasty surprise on him when he got back. It strikes me as craven, underhand and mean-spirited. It also doesn't seem to conform to any discipline policy I've ever seen. I can accept that she felt she was doing the right thing, but she picked a very odd way of doing it. I can understand why all the other children like her, though. It sounds like she may have some very subtle but effective strategies to make her always look like the good guy.

Also from this report, I see that I was right - the parents didn't wait till after the incident to get a diagnosis:

Alex was in the process of being tested for Asperger’s Syndrome, a type of high-functioning autism, at the time of the incident.

Someone should have told the teacher that this was going on. If nobody did, her actions are at least excusable. If she was aware of this, and still behaved as she did, then it would be professional incompetence. Peer pressure doesn't work the same way on kids with ASD's; if it did, they wouldn't have ASD's.

Dave

 

[Skwinty]

Also from this report, I see that I was right - the parents didn't wait till after the incident to get a diagnosis:
Dave

Then most of the blame should lie with the parents for allowing their child to be placed in this situation to the detriment of the other kids. Surely the parents had some idea of the childs behaviour. They must have considering they had the child under testing for AS. All in all I find this to be a sad story for all concerned and it seems to me that more problems are created by every one trying to be politically correct.

Once again, just my opinion. Things were a lot different when i went to school. Those days you had your nonsense beaten out of you and in most cases had no averse effects. Well it certainly didn't with me.

But then again i was just a naughty little turd.
When I was made to sit in the corner holding the skeletons hand in front of the class whilst being berated by the teacher, I would make the skeleton give her the finger when she wasn't looking.

This of course gave me increased status amongst the other kids.

 

[Checkmite]

And if they are to be used accurately, 'mental illness' should not be used to describe Asperger's Syndrome. It's no more a mental illness than an amputated leg is a physical illness. If you're going to insist on accuracy, please employ it yourself.

Now who's speaking from ignorance? An amputated leg can't be called an illness because it is the result of trauma - an impairment of form or function caused by an outside force acting upon the body. Asperger's Syndrome is a medical condition. It's caused internally - perhaps as a response to outside factors, but not necessarily. Asperger's Syndrome certainly qualifies as an illness or disease. According to M-W's medical dictionary's definition of "disease":

: an impairment of the normal state of the living animal or plant body or one of its parts that interrupts or modifies the performance of the vital functions, is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms, and is a response to environmental factors (as malnutrition, industrial hazards, or climate), to specific infective agents (as worms, bacteria, or viruses), to inherent defects of the organism (as genetic anomalies), or to combinations of these factors : sickness, illness—called also morbus; compare health 1

Unless your contention is that Asperger's is caused by head trauma or something else that I'd think we would both agree is nonsense, "illness" is medically accurate.

Again, this demonstrates startling ignorance of Asperger's Syndrome. People with any autistic spectrum disorder must possess the full triad of autistic impairments, and one of these is impairment of social communication. People with Asperger's are capable of using a wide range of language and vocabulary, but can still fail to be 'capable of oral communication that people around them can understand without difficulty', not because they don't have the words to express the ideas, but because their choice of ideas to express is so unusual that what they say doesn't always make sense to the person they're talking to. If you try and pretend that people with Asperger's are entirely capable of oral communication just because they have good language and vocabulary, then you're falling into the same error as this teacher; you're trying to deny the reality of ASD's because you don't understand what they are.


Your impression is, again, not just wrong, but stunningly wrong. You're suggesting that children with Asperger's have no special educational needs, on the basis of a superficial and uninformed reading of DSM-IV. Show me where it says that no kind of special consideration is required to enable a child with Asperger's to properly learn or complete tasks properly. I suggest you Google "Aspergers special educational needs" for evidence that, in fact, Asperger's is almost universally recognised as a condition that imposes a wide range of special educational needs. In the UK, a diagnosis of Asperger's will automatically lead to some form of SEN provision.

Several people in this forum have self-identified as having Asperger's Syndrome and they have no trouble communicating. If they hadn't claimed to have it, it's a fair guess nobody on this forum would've ever suspected. Call me stunningly wrong, wildly misinformed, or what have you, but I'm unaware of the JREF forum having any features that would enable someone who otherwise would have difficulty communicating, to communicate more effectively. There seems to be some kind of theoretical-versus-practical disconnect here that might rather easily explain my "stunning wrongness" in a way that makes responding via machine-gun unnecessary...

And incidentally, going back to DSM-IV, what do you think is meant by "The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning"? That there's nothing difficult for people with Asperger's, and that everything in the classroom will be just fine?

You're kind of setting me up here; you're asking me directly to give you my opinion about a topic you've already declared me to be misinformed on. After I provide an answer to the question YOU asked, I predict you're going to take me to task once again for being "stunningly wrong". But I'm obliging, so: The fact that they're unable to concentrate long enough to hold an entire conversation, perhaps; the fact that they're unable to get along with their co-workers well enough to function properly as a member of a team. Am I off the mark?

 

[Checkmite]

Incidentally, retarded is also a clinical term. A lot more baggage on that one though.

Well nobody has a problem with referring to an individual with mental retardation as "mentally retarded". Most people have a problem with referring to them as "retards" or "'tards".

And there's the difference. Calling Autism a mental illness isn't the same as calling an autistic person "insane" or "bats***-crazy".

 

[Dave Rogers]

Unless your contention is that Asperger's is caused by head trauma or something else that I'd think we would both agree is nonsense, "illness" is medically accurate.

We've agreed that having a leg amputated is not an illness, right? How about having a missing leg due to a birth defect? Would you describe someone like that as ill, even when they were in perfect health?

Autism is not an illness, because 'illness' implies a transitory condition.

Several people in this forum have self-identified as having Asperger's Syndrome and they have no trouble communicating. If they hadn't claimed to have it, it's a fair guess nobody on this forum would've ever suspected. Call me stunningly wrong, wildly misinformed, or what have you, but I'm unaware of the JREF forum having any features that would enable someone who otherwise would have difficulty communicating, to communicate more effectively.

The JREF is a text-based communication medium, in which people can carefully consider what they wish to say, edit it before sending it, and send only the text, free from the non-verbal cues and expressive inflections that are a feature of spoken communication. It's a drastically simplified form of communication.

And I don't even know why you're trying to have this argument. Do you know anybody with Asperger's Syndrome who can communicate just as well as anyone without it? Because I know a lot of people with Asperger's, and all of them have at least some difficulty with communication. It's just not due to lack of language.

You're kind of setting me up here; you're asking me directly to give you my opinion about a topic you've already declared me to be misinformed on.

You've kind of set yourself up by offering your opinions. I think you should learn some facts first. One way to show you that there's more to this than you think is to ask you some questions that you can't answer; maybe you'll start looking for the answers yourself.

The fact that they're unable to concentrate long enough to hold an entire conversation, perhaps; the fact that they're unable to get along with their co-workers well enough to function properly as a member of a team. Am I off the mark?

People with Asperger's can be extraordinarily good at concentrating. Yes, they'll often find it difficult to get along with their co-workers, but that's a secondary effect; why do you think they find it difficult to get along with them?

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

Then most of the blame should lie with the parents for allowing their child to be placed in this situation to the detriment of the other kids. Surely the parents had some idea of the childs behaviour. They must have considering they had the child under testing for AS.

Not necessarily. Kids have a right to an education, even if they've got Asperger's. Quite often there simply isn't an alternative available, or the only way to get one is to allow the child to cause problems in a regular setting until the school's forced to admit there's a problem. I don't know how it works in the US, but in the UK the education authority has a duty of care to meet every child's educational needs; it's up to them to provide a suitable environment. If they choose not to do so, it's an abdication of responsibility, made even worse if they then expect the parents to take the child out of school altogether. Parents don't have a lot of power in these situations, so blaming them for allowing a bad situation to arise is both unfair and pointless.

Dave

 

[GlennB]

Call me stunningly wrong, wildly misinformed, or what have you, but I'm unaware of the JREF forum having any features that would enable someone who otherwise would have difficulty communicating, to communicate more effectively.

In my experience of working in the residential care of AS teenagers, purely text-based forms of communication can be a preferred method for some AS people.

Because speech disappears once uttered and can't be referred back to.
Because spoken words often carry ambiguous meanings.
Because attitude and subtle meaning is often conveyed in non-spoken ways while the words themselves are being uttered.

All of which can be a nightmare for certain AS people.

Thus an internet forum might easily 'disguise' an AS person.

 

[Checkmite]

We've agreed that having a leg amputated is not an illness, right? How about having a missing leg due to a birth defect? Would you describe someone like that as ill, even when they were in perfect health?

Autism is not an illness, because 'illness' implies a transitory condition.

No it doesn't; that's a completely baseless assertion. The medical dictionary to which I just linked gives "illness" as a synonym for "disease", and nothing is mentioned about time. Have you ever heard of a "terminal illness" or a "chronic illness"? Perhaps you personally choose to infer a transitory condition when you hear the word "illness"; but objectively, it doesn't imply anything.

The JREF is a text-based communication medium, in which people can carefully consider what they wish to say, edit it before sending it, and send only the text, free from the non-verbal cues and expressive inflections that are a feature of spoken communication. It's a drastically simplified form of communication.

And yet I'm sure the Asperger's Syndrome-havers amongst us don't do worse than average at determining whether a text comment is serious, tongue-in-cheek, or a joke. The DSM doesn't say anything about text communication being different, and there ARE other people behind these words.

And I don't even know why you're trying to have this argument. Do you know anybody with Asperger's Syndrome who can communicate just as well as anyone without it? Because I know a lot of people with Asperger's, and all of them have at least some difficulty with communication. It's just not due to lack of language.

I'm having this argument because people are demanding an apology from me for apparently being a bad man. I do not think I am a bad man and so am explaining why I don't feel an apology is necessary.

What I don't understand, as I've already said, is why describing a class of people as articulate and capable is so offensive to those people that they're making a rather very large point out of getting me to apologize for doing so.

People other than me have already posted quotes from clinical resources that say it's extremely difficult for a non-psychiatrist to tell the difference between someone with Asperger's and someone who just cuts up in class all the time, so I'm not sure why any of these points even need belaboring.

You've kind of set yourself up by offering your opinions. I think you should learn some facts first. One way to show you that there's more to this than you think is to ask you some questions that you can't answer; maybe you'll start looking for the answers yourself.

Apparently, the DSM isn't a good place to look for answers. Odd, as it's where the physician who diagnosed those individuals with Asperger's Syndrome went.

People with Asperger's can be extraordinarily good at concentrating. Yes, they'll often find it difficult to get along with their co-workers, but that's a secondary effect; why do you think they find it difficult to get along with them?

Maybe because can't help but do things like take personal offense at neutral technical language?

 

[Checkmite]

In my experience of working in the residential care of AS teenagers, purely text-based forms of communication can be a preferred method for some AS people.

Because speech disappears once uttered and can't be referred back to.
Because spoken words often carry ambiguous meanings.
Because attitude and subtle meaning is often conveyed in non-spoken ways while the words themselves are being uttered.

All of which can be a nightmare for certain AS people.

Thus an internet forum might easily 'disguise' an AS person.

Well now, this is getting somewhere and it's a welcome change from "I'm stabbing you through my keyboard".

I'd like to read more about it. Any suggestions?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Apparently, the DSM isn't a good place to look for answers.

Not if it's your only place to look for answers. And that's your problem.

Dave