Merged Teacher leads kindergarten class to vote boy with Asperger's out of class

[Agular]

Mothers and defense attorneys should be completely ignored. There is no way that they can be believed.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I don't know what DD was or was not having; but I must admit that, after reading over this page several times, I do find the notion that between the two of us I'm the one that needs to apologize for my behavior here is rather interesting.

I rather think Dancing David ought to apologise too, but I'm less interested in his rather vivid response to your offensive remarks - I'd be guessing, by the way, that he's Aspergian and took particular personal offence to the sort of ignorant remarks that will be horribly familiar to him from so many other sources. But I could be wrong. The notion that I find rather interesting is that you imagine that any putative need for you to apologise needs to be considered in light of someone else's need to apologise.

You asked for direct quotes of those ignorant and offensive remarks:

What is supported, and still relevant, is that the diagnosis of mental illness¹ was after the fact, and that Asperger's is not a disabling affliction². Asperger's patients are articulate and capable of learning - for instance, the child had no trouble relaying the sequence of events in detail to his mother³. The marker⁴ is trouble with interpersonal relationships, not learning or participating in day-to-day tasks and activities⁵. It's not a "self-evident" affliction and there's no cause to believe a non-medical professional would be able to discern between a child with Asperger's and a child that simply had authority issues or refused to behave⁶.

As I said, luchog has covered most of my objections to your post and with better grace than Dancing David. If you're still having trouble understanding why any of those bolded remarks are ignorant and/or offensive, feel free to refer to them by number and I'll try to help. But if you plan on listing them all I'm not sure I can help you.

 

[DC]

teaching the kids bigotry and the downside of Democracy is just sick.

I hope the schoolboard will also vote her out.

ETA: didnt see its an old thread.

 

[Uncayimmy]

1. Mental illness is a throwaway term. Consider it is part of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, I wouldn't pitch a fit about using the term mental illness. Some people are real sensitive about it, presumably because they presume some stigma. Well, the stigma doesn't go away if you call it something else.

2. Disabling affliction is another throwaway term because of its ambiguity. In the UK it's considered a disability legally, but at the same time those with the disorder question the use of the term disability. I wouldn't pitch a fit about the use of the term.

3. Articulate and capable of learning? According to the Autism Society, "to be diagnosed with Asperger’s, a child must have normal language development as well as normal intelligence." Not seeing a problem there.

4. Not sure why marker bothers you.

5. Not learning or participating in day-to-day tasks and activities is not an indicator. The Autism Society says, "The DSM-IV criteria for AS specifies that the individual must have "severe and sustained impairment in social interaction." Checkmite said the problem was interpersonal relationships, so I'm not seeing the problem.

6. Non-medical professionals should not be expected to discern the difference. Again, according to the Autism Society, "To the untrained observer, a child with Asperger's Disorder may just seem like a normal child behaving differently." Not seeing the problem here.

I had a friend with Asperger's who was murdered several years ago. Great if goofy guy - refused to take a left turn while driving, so he'd drive a mile instead of 100 yards to buy lunch. I regularly interact on-line with someone else with Asperger's (he's a spokesperson for those with Asperger's). It doesn't make me an expert, but neither am I unfamiliar with it. I don't see why you're riding Checkmite about his post.

DD has given his expert opinion that a teacher should not allow students to express their reactions to another child's behavior, which is what it sounded like to me. I don't have the same objection. I would object if she didn't guide the discussion to prevent insults from being flung, but I think it's good for a child to know what's socially acceptable. DD has spoken about natural consequences, I see learning how one's actions affect others as part of that. How the vote thing went down nobody knows for sure, but I think it's a good thing for the student to know that's not just an arbitrary removal by an authority figure but something that affects the whole class.

DD calls it shaming, I can see that perspective, but sometimes shame is a natural consequence of our actions. DD seems to believe children that young can't handle it, but we (I think) recognize that children that age can do things that are good for the group (helping clean up common areas, bringing in things to share), so why can't they understand that they can also do things that adversely affect the group? At what point do they learn being sent out of the classroom for breaking a rule is really being sent out because their behavior is adversely affecting others?

If there's science behind what DD refers to as shaming at that young age, I hope he'll present it.

 

[Skwinty]

You asked for direct quotes of those ignorant and offensive remarks:If you're still having trouble understanding why any of those bolded remarks are ignorant and/or offensive, feel free to refer to them by number and I'll try to help. But if you plan on listing them all I'm not sure I can help you.

I have no investment in this argument, but I fail to see what is ignorant and offensive in Checkmites post.

What I do find offensive is that DD had to resort to breaking the MA in his response to Checkmite.

 

[Skwinty]

I'd be guessing, by the way, that he's Aspergian and took particular personal offence to the sort of ignorant remarks that will be horribly familiar to him from so many other sources. .

Yes, you would be guessing and that guess would be irrelevant. If I suffered from tourettes syndrome, should I expect a get out of jail card free for using abusive language?

Incidentally, the link I posted earlier was updated earlier this year.

 

[Dave Rogers]

What is supported, and still relevant, is that the diagnosis of mental illness was after the fact, and that Asperger's is not a disabling affliction. Asperger's patients are articulate and capable of learning - for instance, the child had no trouble relaying the sequence of events in detail to his mother. The marker is trouble with interpersonal relationships, not learning or participating in day-to-day tasks and activities. It's not a "self-evident" affliction and there's no cause to believe a non-medical professional would be able to discern between a child with Asperger's and a child that simply had authority issues or refused to behave.

Whatever else may have been said here, this paragraph displays a stunning level of ignorance; have you ever met anyone with Asperger's syndrome? Asperger's can be extraordinarily disabling, because many people with Asperger's are unable to execute perfectly normal tasks for reasons that the rest of us are very ill-equipped to understand. To describe people with Asperger's as articulate is to miss the point; they may well talk articulately about a limited range of subjects, but be quite unable to discuss any subjects outside that narrow range, and can react angrily and, yes, disruptively when others demand that they do so; to them this is forcing them to do things they simply cannot, to a teacher it simply looks like trying to keep them on the topic of the lesson. Their capability for learning can be limited for the exact same reason, and there's a very specific problem with learning: skills and abilities may be learned in one context, and completely absent in another, so that (for example) a child perfectly able to use the bathroom and wash his hands afterwards at home may be completely unable to do the same at school. We don't actually know, by the way, from the sources quoted, that the mother received a full and accurate account of events from the child, or whether she needed to investigate further and hear accounts from other people; it's rare for anyone with Asperger's to be able to frame an account in the same kind of language as someone without, and any experienced parent would double-check wherever possible as a matter of course. Learning and participation in day-to-day tasks are personal interactions, and these are precisely the sort of thing that people with Asperger's have difficulties with. I know many kids with Asperger's, and it's extremely common for their teachers and their families to find them extremely disruptive for these reasons.

I've said before that I suspect the teacher's problem was lack of support, leading to ignorance of what Asperger's really is, what its implications are for the individual and their peers, and what strategies are available to help them cope. Clearly, this sort of ignorance is not rare.

Dave

 

[Skwinty]

How can a kindergarten teacher or member of the public be expected to recognise AS.

"The diagnosis of AS is a two-stage process. The first stage begins with developmental screening during a “well-child” check-up with a family doctor or pediatrician. The second stage is a comprehensive team evaluation to either rule in or rule out AS. This team generally includes a psychologist, neurologist, psychiatrist, speech therapist, and additional professionals who have expertise in diagnosing children with AS."

"Their expertise, high level of vocabulary, and formal speech patterns make them seem like little professors."

The little professor statement applies to lots of individuals who are not AS sufferers.

 

[Dave Rogers]

How can a kindergarten teacher or member of the public be expected to recognise AS.

For a kindergarten teacher, it's training and experience, the usual way. And it's not necessary, as a teacher, to make a definite diagnosis; what's necessary is for the teacher to have the appropriate skills to identify that a specific child has unusual difficulties, and the resources to seek support in meeting that child's needs. That's why I'd be reluctant to blame the teacher too much for this; she should have had some backup. In the UK she'd have been able to talk to the school's Special Educational Needs co-ordinator, who will normally be another teacher with some specialised training, who could then refer her to an advisory teacher for SEN, who in turn could consult an educational psychologist via the local education authority.

Oh, and one response to UncaYimmy:

"To the untrained observer, a child with Asperger's Disorder may just seem like a normal child behaving differently."

A teacher is not an untrained observer. Teachers, for obvious reasons, will frequently be the first ones to notice that there's an issue with a particular child. They should have the training and support, not necessarily to diagnose the problem, but to identify that there is a problem and seek appropriate expert help. When the system around them works well, teachers do this extremely effectively.

Dave

 

[Travis]

How can a kindergarten teacher or member of the public be expected to recognise AS.

Can we at least expect them to not turn their classrooms into little "shame spectacle thunderdomes" at least? Or is asking that too much?

 

[Skwinty]

Can we at least expect them to not turn their classrooms into little "shame spectacle thunderdomes" at least? Or is asking that too much?

Nothing wrong with making a misbehaving child sit in the corner holding the skeletons hand.

That happened to me and I suffered no ill effect. Well, thats my story and I am sticking to it. What is your excuse..

 

[JihadJane]

Can we at least expect them to not turn their classrooms into little "shame spectacle thunderdomes" at least? Or is asking that too much?

What about a kindergarten Stundie Award?

 

[jiggeryqua]

Yes, you would be guessing and that guess would be irrelevant. If I suffered from tourettes syndrome, should I expect a get out of jail card free for using abusive language?

The guess is relevant to the strength and nature of DD's response, which I have repeatedly said was ill-advised and unnecessary. I did not support it, any more than I would support your strawman example. I would, however, expect Tourette's Syndrome to be taken into consideration when dealing with an outburst of abusive language.

I made the guess because, as an aspergian, I have been subjected to that sort of ignorant, offensive remark from people who 'know' an aspergian, or think they might have some aspergian traits (we all exist somewhere on the autistic spectrum), or perhaps once read something about it in a journal or possibly Readers' Digest.

 

[Skwinty]

I made the guess because, as an aspergian, I have been subjected to that sort of ignorant, offensive remark from people who 'know' an aspergian, or think they might have some aspergian traits (we all exist somewhere on the autistic spectrum), or perhaps once read something about it in a journal or possibly Readers' Digest.

I don't doubt that you feel that Checkmites remarks are offensive.
I am not a medical professional, yet what he said seems to be pretty much inline with what the American Psychiatric Association’s diagnostic reference booksays http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/a...l_asperger.htm

Also, bear in mind that many sufferers of AS are not considered as disabled and if you google famous AS sufferers, you will find a long list. It has even been speculated that Einstein and Newton suffered from AS and no-one considered them disabled.

Quite frankly, I do not understand all the fuss and sensitive reactions to Checkmites post.

But, that is just my opinion.

Please provide evidence that (we all exist somewhere on the autistic spectrum)

 

[jiggeryqua]

1. Mental illness is a throwaway term. Consider it is part of the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, I wouldn't pitch a fit about using the term mental illness. Some people are real sensitive about it, presumably because they presume some stigma. Well, the stigma doesn't go away if you call it something else.

2. Disabling affliction is another throwaway term because of its ambiguity. In the UK it's considered a disability legally, but at the same time those with the disorder question the use of the term disability. I wouldn't pitch a fit about the use of the term.

3. Articulate and capable of learning? According to the Autism Society, "to be diagnosed with Asperger’s, a child must have normal language development as well as normal intelligence." Not seeing a problem there.

4. Not sure why marker bothers you.

5. Not learning or participating in day-to-day tasks and activities is not an indicator. The Autism Society says, "The DSM-IV criteria for AS specifies that the individual must have "severe and sustained impairment in social interaction." Checkmite said the problem was interpersonal relationships, so I'm not seeing the problem.

6. Non-medical professionals should not be expected to discern the difference. Again, according to the Autism Society, "To the untrained observer, a child with Asperger's Disorder may just seem like a normal child behaving differently." Not seeing the problem here.

You've actually trimmed a couple of those, which seems slightly dishonest. Number two, for example, was a statement that Aspergers is not a disabling condition. I took exception to the certainty expressed, when it is considered a disability, as you note, but is also the topic if debate as to the worth of the label 'disability'. It is not a throw away term if you are experiencing. The word 'affliction' is rather loaded too, don't you think? Or is it the people who use words rather the people they are used about (or at, or against) who now get to decide how offensive they are? I'd rather you didn't say I was 'afflicted' with Aspergers, I will take offence.

For number 1, 'mental illness' is not a throw away term either and is not particularly helpful when discussing Asperger's. Certainly, in the UK, the mental health services don't consider it to be under their umbrella, despite the comorbid symptoms of depression and anxiety. Of course, changing terms does not change attitudes, but the general understanding of mental illness tends toward delusional thinking, which is not a characteristic of Aspergers.

3. Not every neurotypical person is articulate. Nor is every Aspergian. We are not an homogenous group. I find it offensive to be demoted from an individual to a syndrome or disease or illness or affliction (because as you say, whatever term you use the attitude is still offensive).

4. 'Marker' does not bother me - perhaps that's the source of your confusion. 'The marker' bothers me (as does your trimming of my bolded parts, previously noted). There is no single marker and autism is considered to have three key 'markers', if you will.

5. "Not learning or participating in day-to-day tasks and activities" - which take place in a classroom, a social setting, where people interact. Difficulties in social settings invariably lead to difficulties in tasks or activities in those settings. There are also other aspects of aspergers which will impinge on learning or participating in tasks or activities where no consideration is made for the autistic mind.

6. A teacher is not, or should not be, an untrained observer.

I had a friend with Asperger's who was murdered several years ago. Great if goofy guy - refused to take a left turn while driving, so he'd drive a mile instead of 100 yards to buy lunch. I regularly interact on-line with someone else with Asperger's (he's a spokesperson for those with Asperger's). It doesn't make me an expert, but neither am I unfamiliar with it. I don't see why you're riding Checkmite about his post.

"Some of my best friends are black"? Seriously? You're right, it doesn't make you an expert. Now you know three individuals who are aspergians. You're still not an expert, but I haven't given up on you.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I don't doubt that you feel that Checkmites remarks are offensive.
I am not a medical professional, yet what he said seems to be pretty much inline with what the American Psychiatric Association’s diagnostic reference booksays http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/a...l_asperger.htm

Also, bear in mind that many sufferers of AS are not considered as disabled and if you google famous AS sufferers, you will find a long list. It has even been speculated that Einstein and Newton suffered from AS and no-one considered them disabled.

Quite frankly, I do not understand all the fuss and sensitive reactions to Checkmites post.

But, that is just my opinion.

Please provide evidence that (we all exist somewhere on the autistic spectrum)

You don't doubt it, but you dismiss it, or at least make little effort to understand it. I don't care to be labelled disabled, any more than if I were blind or using a wheelchair, though I would appreciate some accommodations such as textured paving signals or ramps into buildings, only more pertient to aspergians and other autists. This is not a debate about disability, but while we're on the topic, the social model of disability suggests that it is the stairs that disable a wheelchair user. I expect there used to be people who didn't understand the fuss and sensitive reactions of the physical disability lobby.

Hawking is disabled, of course, and has done very well for himself. I have at no point attempted to claim that I am disabled or offer it as an excuse for something or plead a special case. Your implication that I have is unwarranted. I have expressed how I feel when a group of ill-informed people discuss from a position of ignorance something I experience, in a way that reduces me from an individual to a syndrome.

Oh, and do your own research. 'We all exist somewhere on the autistic spectrum' was something of a mantra at a company I worked for some years ago. I provided individual learning programmes for autistic adults, people who are without doubt 'disabled' to the point at which they need full-time residential care & support. I took their word for it at the time - it was an excellent company and I'll happily repeat the phrase that seemed integral to the ethos. Do some reading, feel free to let me know if you can find an expert opinion that disagrees with that contention.

 

[Damien Evans]

Well that's true. The impression I got was that the mother took the child to a doctor to get him diagnosed with Asperger's as a result of the incident in question, but that's not really supported objectively.

What is supported, and still relevant, is that the diagnosis of mental illness was after the fact, and that Asperger's is not a disabling affliction. Asperger's patients are articulate and capable of learning - for instance, the child had no trouble relaying the sequence of events in detail to his mother. The marker is trouble with interpersonal relationships, not learning or participating in day-to-day tasks and activities. It's not a "self-evident" affliction and there's no cause to believe a non-medical professional would be able to discern between a child with Asperger's and a child that simply had authority issues or refused to behave.

Only someone with very little understanding of Aspergers could post that.

Oh, and I'll thank you never to call me mentally ill again.

 

[Skwinty]

Oh, and do your own research. 'We all exist somewhere on the autistic spectrum' was something of a mantra at a company I worked for some years ago. I provided individual learning programmes for autistic adults, people who are without doubt 'disabled' to the point at which they need full-time residential care & support. I took their word for it at the time - it was an excellent company and I'll happily repeat the phrase that seemed integral to the ethos. Do some reading, feel free to let me know if you can find an expert opinion that disagrees with that contention.

This is the JREF. Your claim you back it up. That is how things work around here. No concessions for any one. If I read Checkmites post correctly he said AS was not a disability. (and that Asperger's is not a disabling affliction). Sheesh.

ETA:The autism spectrum, also called autism spectrum disorders (ASD) or autism spectrum conditions (ASC), with the word autistic sometimes replacing autism, is a spectrum of psychological conditions characterized by widespread abnormalities of social interactions and communication, as well as severely restricted interests and highly repetitive behavior.[1]

 

[jiggeryqua]

Please provide evidence that (we all exist somewhere on the autistic spectrum)

Figuring you'd continue to demand 'proof' rather than take steps to inform yourself, I read this again....spectrum - do you understand the term? Some people are way over to the 'ultraviolet' end - profoundly autistic. Perhaps you're infra-red - not at all autistic. But you're still on the spectrum. The point of the phrase is to try and chip away at the barriers 'normal' people tend to raise between themselves and, for example. 'the disabled' or 'the autistic'.

ETA: in response to your edit, it seems your problem is that you do not want to be considered as having psychological conditions (you do) or 'abnormalities'. It is, I imagine, reassuring to be able to believe yourself to be 'normal'. Alas, there's no such thing. Please provide evidence for your claim that there is.

EATA: your first two links are 'not found' and the last one brings up the recent threads page of this forum

 

[jiggeryqua]

This is the JREF. Your claim you back it up. That is how things work around here. No concessions for any one. If I read Checkmites post correctly he said AS was not a disability. (and that Asperger's is not a disabling affliction). Sheesh.

This is the JREF. Play nice. 'Sheesh' is unnecessary - I care naught for your frustration as you fail to understand. Yes, Checkmite said those things - and I have addressed the use of the word affliction, and the notion of 'disability' in other posts.

I do not intend to undertake the necessary education to bring you to an understanding of autism. If you're interested, do some research and maybe even meet some autistic people. My previous post may also help you understand the 'claim' that you demand 'proof' for. It is self-evident.