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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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loverofzion said:
Sorry Chris wrong again.
Filomena was unanimously described as being very neat.
The clothes were NOT on the floor when she left; and yes, the glass pieces were sprinkled ON TOP of the contents of her room.
Plus what burglars don't take designer sunglasses or a computer in plain sight?

And finally how did Raf know that nothing had been taken when he first called the police to report the break-in?
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Massei only mentions that Filomena mentions that there was glass on top of the clothes. according to the appeal, she also stated that there was glass in the middle and underneath the clothes. Why would Massei rely on one part of her testimony and ignore the other part?
 
Chris C said:
Me get over knox, that is funny. You forget what crime they where charged with together. This is mignini's theory. THis is the one that he told to the court. This is the theory he told the papers.
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Quote your sources.
You seem to have shall we say segued onto that theory; nowhere did I ever mention as I said the control she had over the two men; nor did I ever allude to them killing poor Meredith for Amanda.
Tell me really is that what you believe was the reason she was convicted?
 
RoseMontague said:
Massei only mentions that Filomena mentions that there was glass on top of the clothes. according to the appeal, she also stated that there was glass in the middle and underneath the clothes. Why would Massei rely on one part of her testimony and ignore the other part?
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Again quote your sources.
It was admitted into court that the glass shards were ON TOP of the clothes.
Show me where it says otherwise.
 
Thread closed while it undergoes another clean-up... will be open for business as soon as possible.
Posted By: Darat
 
loverofzion said:
Again quote your sources.
It was admitted into court that the glass shards were ON TOP of the clothes.
Show me where it says otherwise.
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Page 231 RS Appeal (Google trans and Italian to follow)

The ruling, however, has neglected other statements of that witness who
reported: "that was a mixture and then the spot there if I just (...) was
a mixture of glass, clothes, glasses (...) Yes, they [the glasses] also below, but also were above "(p. 41 statements Romanelli).
These claims were completely and inexplicably ignored in that ruling was limited to only report one side of the deposition of Witness without giving account further clarification provided

La sentenza, tuttavia, ha trascurato altre dichiarazioni della stessa teste che ha riferito: “cioè era un miscuglio e quindi lì per lì non ci feci subito caso (…) Era un miscuglio di vetri, vestiti, vetri (…) Si, erano [i vetri] anche sotto, ma anche erano sopra” (p. 41 dichiarazioni Romanelli).
Tali affermazioni sono state completamente ed inspiegabilmente ignorate nella sentenza che si è limitata a riportare solo una parte della deposizione della testimone senza dar conto della successiva precisazione fornita.
 
Raffaele and Amanda in front of Judge Matteini

loverofzion said:
Which of each of their total of SIX alibis squared up in your opinion?

They definitely had widely varying accounts of Filomena's door- be it open or shut- and that is just for starters.

Lying in a murder investigation is not looked upon kindly by law enforcement detectives; as it went down, it placed the 2 squarely under suspicion of involvement.

That and Amanda's "gift" to the police admitting having been present at the murder.

What HAVE you been reading for your sources?
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loverofzion,

Raffaele backed Amanda's alibi up in front of Judge Matteini, the most recent time he made a court statement. His lawyers did not contradict this in their appearance before the Supreme Court, contrary to some misconceptions. This has been discussed several times upthread.

Amanda made herself clear in her (bugged) comments to her mother on or near the tenth of November. It is not as if ILE had no idea of where Amanda stood. In addition, she stated her retraction on the 30th of November in court.
 
loverofzion said:
Oh and also can you tell me how Raf knew that nothing had been taken right away?
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Because they looked and didn't notice anything taken perhaps? Because Amanda looked and none of her stuff was taken. Your question implys that they called the police and never entereed until they escorted the police inside. They already did a walk thru and noticed nothing missing.
 
katy_did said:
On the subject of footprints, it's odd that people elsewhere are still being linked to a post on TJMK which gives the length of Rudy's footprint as 28cm in order to show he couldn't have made the bathmat print. I know that the actual length of his foot wasn't known at the time that post was written, so fair enough. But haven't the people who are still citing it (and actually accusing the FOA site of shrinking the same print on that basis) read the Massei report? It gives the actual size of Rudy's footprint. From page 348:


Notice also that the possibility that Guede made the print is being ruled out here because his footprint is 2mm bigger than the blurry luminol print, while Sollecito's is 1mm smaller. Conclusive evidence indeed...
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Actually, that presentation alleges that Guede's foot was a "giant" (their words) 28.4cm in length. Someone had obviously decided (conveniently for them) that Guede was some sort of super-being with huge feet. Unfortunately, they were wrong. But, of course, scaling the Guede footprint up to 28.4cm, then overlaying it on the bathmat print, makes for a significant mismatch - which was the whole point of that presentation.

However....... if one scales Guede's foot impression to the correct 24.7cm (almost 4cm shorter than the presentation alleges!), then it happens to fit the bathmat print incredibly well. I wonder why some people are still promoting that presentation as a skilled and masterful piece of work? It's anything but. I guess I should be used to it by now, though....
 
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loverofzion said:
What is the conspiracy you are referring to?
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The rather odd conspiracy theory from the prosecution.

The first version had Amanda and Raffaele conspiring with Patrick Lumumba to sexually abuse Meredith. Amanda having confirmed this by sending a text message saying "see you later, have a good evening". Even at this early stage, the conspiracy theory didn't make a lot of sense.

After Rudy Guede was matched to the bloody handprint found under the victim, Rudy replaced Patrick but the theory remained basically the same. Prosecutor Mignini simply ignored that Amanda had never called, emailed or socialized with Rudy and that Raffaele had never met Rudy.

When the forensic teams failed to find evidence proving Amanda and Raffaele were in the murder room, the conspiracy theory was expanded to include a clean up.

This isn't Mignini's first conspiracy theory. In another case, he claimed that a suicide was really a homicide to cover up a Satanic conspiracy behind the Monster of Florence murders and that another man's body had been buried in the victim's grave. After the body was exhumed and DNA proved the right guy was in the grave, Mignini claimed that the body had been swiped twice. :rolleyes:

Ever expanding conspiracy theories should be a red flag to any of the skeptics here on JREF.
 
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LondonJohn said:
Actually, that presentation alleges that Guede's foot was a "giant" (their words) 28.4cm in length. Someone had obviously decided (conveniently for them) that Guede was some sort of super-being with huge feet. Unfortunately, they were wrong. But, of course, scaling the Guede footprint up to 28.4cm, then overlaying it on the bathmat print, makes for a significant mismatch - which was the whole point of that presentation.

However....... if one scales Guede's foot impression to the correct 24.7cm (almost 4cm shorter than the presentation alleges!), then it happens to fit the bathmat print incredibly well. I wonder why some people are still promoting that presentation as a skilled and masterful piece of work? It's anything but. I guess I should be used to it by now, though....
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Yes... To be fair, the actual measurements weren't known at the time the presentation was made, and Guede does have surprisingly small feet for his shoe size (just 3mm bigger than Sollecito's, even though he takes a shoe several sizes bigger!).

But what I don't understand is why - now that the actual measurements are known - the PP is being linked as proof that Guede could not have made the print, when the measurements used for both Sollecito and Guede's prints are now known to be inaccurate. Particularly as part of an argument to point out supposedly inaccurate measurements on other sites.
 
loverofzion said:
Quote your sources.
You seem to have shall we say segued onto that theory; nowhere did I ever mention as I said the control she had over the two men; nor did I ever allude to them killing poor Meredith for Amanda.
Tell me really is that what you believe was the reason she was convicted?
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You make statements and when people respond you ask them to quote their sources.

loverofzion said:
Maybe because when callinhg Meredith Am,anda let the phone ring for 3 seconds onlyl, not bothering to wait for it to connect to voice mail.
she knew there would be no answer.
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Please quote your source that says it didn't go to voicemail.

loverofzion said:
1. There was no voice message at the point Amanda hung up.
2. The mobile phone was NOT off the hook; on the contrary, it rang and rang.
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Please quote your source. Quote the source that says the phone was or wasn't turned off after it was found. It was found because it wasn't turned off. However, prove it wasn't turned off after someone found it.

loverofzion said:
Sorry Chris wrong again.
Filomena was unanimously described as being very neat.
The clothes were NOT on the floor when she left; and yes, the glass pieces were sprinkled ON TOP of the contents of her room.
Plus what burglars don't take designer sunglasses or a computer in plain sight?

And finally how did Raf know that nothing had been taken when he first called the police to report the break-in?
Click to expand...
Please quote the source that says the glass was sprinkled ON TOP of the contents.

Filomena's Testimony
(("I went in and found the wardrobe open, clothes were thrown around everywhere, it was in a terrible mess," she told the court. "The first thing I did was check for my jewellery and I found that it was where I had left it... Then I found that my sunglasses and handbag and computer were still there. There was glass under the window and also both on top of and underneath the clothes and lying on top of the computer case."))

I just showed you Filomena's testimony. Did she testify the clothes where not already on the floor? Did she testify that there was glass under her cloths? Did she testify she searched her room looking for her valuables and didn't touch anything in the room?
 
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katy_did said:
Yes... To be fair, the actual measurements weren't known at the time the presentation was made, and Guede does have surprisingly small feet for his shoe size (just 3mm bigger than Sollecito's, even though he takes a shoe several sizes bigger!).

But what I don't understand is why - now that the actual measurements are known - the PP is being linked as proof that Guede could not have made the print, when the measurements used for both Sollecito and Guede's prints are now known to be inaccurate. Particularly as part of an argument to point out supposedly inaccurate measurements on other sites.
Click to expand...

You may have answered your own question...... ;)
 
katy_did said:
Yes... To be fair, the actual measurements weren't known at the time the presentation was made, and Guede does have surprisingly small feet for his shoe size (just 3mm bigger than Sollecito's, even though he takes a shoe several sizes bigger!).

But what I don't understand is why - now that the actual measurements are known - the PP is being linked as proof that Guede could not have made the print, when the measurements used for both Sollecito and Guede's prints are now known to be inaccurate. Particularly as part of an argument to point out supposedly inaccurate measurements on other sites.
Click to expand...

Plus, I don't entirely share your generosity about the presentation being made in the absence of actual foot measurements. Everybody knows that different people like different levels of fit on their shoes - so that two people with the same sized feet might prefer shoes up to three sizes different from each other. In addition to which, not all shoes of the same nominal shoe size are actually the same size - owing to differences in the manufacturing process etc. Again, we all have direct experience of finding that some shoe brands fit us in one size, while others fit us in another size.

With all that in mind, to me it's disingenuous to use a simple (and, incidentally, incorrect) read-across table comparing shoe sizes with foot lengths, in order to "guestimate" Guede's and Sollecito's actual foot lengths - particularly in an analysis which demanded almost millimetre precision. Furthermore, this presentation was not caveated with the important information that the foot lengths were mere guesses - instead, it was presented with an almost theatrical flourish as a "coup de grace" for any arguments which dared to suggest that the print might belong to Guede.

And this is, to me, a microcosm of much of what is wrong with the "other side" of this argument - it seems to be reliant on false certainties regarding what are, actually, debatable points. We saw it with the sequence of cellphone calls and the Postal Police arrival, we saw it with the DNA evidence, and we're seeing it with the stomach/duodenum contents & ToD evidence.
 
Chris C said:
Me get over knox, that is funny. You forget what crime they where charged with together. This is mignini's theory. THis is the one that he told to the court. This is the theory he told the papers.
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Where did Mignini ever say that?
You are picking things out of the air unless you footnote and prove sources.
 
Chris C said:
You make statements and when people respond you ask them to quote their sources.



Please quote your source that says it didn't go to voicemail.



Please quote your source. Quote the source that says the phone was or wasn't turned off after it was found. It was found because it wasn't turned off. However, prove it wasn't turned off after someone found it.


Please quote the source that says the glass was sprinkled ON TOP of the contents.

Filomena's Testimony
(("I went in and found the wardrobe open, clothes were thrown around everywhere, it was in a terrible mess," she told the court. "The first thing I did was check for my jewellery and I found that it was where I had left it... Then I found that my sunglasses and handbag and computer were still there. There was glass under the window and also both on top of and underneath the clothes and lying on top of the computer case."))

I just showed you Filomena's testimony. Did she testify the clothes where not already on the floor? Did she testify that there was glass under her cloths? Did she testify she searched her room looking for her valuables and didn't touch anything in the room?
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Yes she testified that clothes were not previously on the floor.
The glass was scattered, yet she still testified it was "lying on top of the computer case"! How can the murderer first break in, then throw around her belongings, and the glass ends up ONLY on top of the computer?!
She checked her things under police scrutiny; there was never any problem with that.

What is it you are trying to prove?
 
Kestrel said:
The rather odd conspiracy theory from the prosecution.

The first version had Amanda and Raffaele conspiring with Patrick Lumumba to sexually abuse Meredith. Amanda having confirmed this by sending a text message saying "see you later, have a good evening". Even at this early stage, the conspiracy theory didn't make a lot of sense.

After Rudy Guede was matched to the bloody handprint found under the victim, Rudy replaced Patrick but the theory remained basically the same. Prosecutor Mignini simply ignored that Amanda had never called, emailed or socialized with Rudy and that Raffaele had never met Rudy.

When the forensic teams failed to find evidence proving Amanda and Raffaele were in the murder room, the conspiracy theory was expanded to include a clean up.

This isn't Mignini's first conspiracy theory. In another case, he claimed that a suicide was really a homicide to cover up a Satanic conspiracy behind the Monster of Florence murders and that another man's body had been buried in the victim's grave. After the body was exhumed and DNA proved the right guy was in the grave, Mignini claimed that the body had been swiped twice. :rolleyes:

Ever expanding conspiracy theories should be a red flag to any of the skeptics here on JREF.
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Amanda was proven to have met Rudy on several occasions, at the neighbors' downstairs as well as in the pub where she worked.
They had a passing acquaintance, he was suppsedly stuck on her, and he may well have provided Amanda and Raf with the drugs they wre using the night of the murder.

Raffi was proven to have been in the murder room by his DNA on Meredith's bra clasp, and Amanda's DNA was found mixed with Meredith's blood in several different locations in the house.
Let us not forget the double DNA knife with Amanda's DNA on the handle and Meredith's on the blade. There is NO way to explain that away (tho Raffi tried by twice suggesting he pricked M with the knife while cooking. They had never shared a meal or cooked together).
There is no conspiracy theory at work here; the staged crime scene has nothing to do with conspiracy.

You are waving a red flag that is really not relevent to the convictions of Amanda and Raffaeloo.
 
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