Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[loverofzion]

Here is a portion from Amanda’s diary (Murder in Italy, p. 215):

“The police had come to search through my bags to see how guilty my schoolbooks were and one police officer asked me if I had seen the news, about the knife. Wanted to know if I had anything to say. I repeated my story, that I wasn’t anywhere near Meredith when she was murdered. Then he laughed and said, “Another story? Another lie? He stared right at me as if I was no better than gum he wiped off the bottom of his shoe. It was the first time that anybody has looked at me like that before. So when I went back to my cell, I cried at the ugliness of it all, my being in prison, my friend dead, the police following a cold and irrational trail because they have nothing better.”

I decided to post it for three reasons. First, it is an instance of Amanda crying, an issue which has appeared here. Second, anonymous individuals have questioned Amanda’s ability to write well, and the comparison with gum on the sole of a shoe is pretty good, IMHO. Third, the preventive detention law under which Amanda and Raffaele were held without charge forbids interrogation of the individuals detained. This is one more thing that ILE failed to do properly.

1.No one every doubted Amanda's ABILITY to cry; there were comments on the fact that she didn't show what is considered appropriate, i.e., sad, mournful affect upon learning of her roommate's murder. and
2.If you find that gum on the sole analogy good lit, well I suggest you get thee to a library and broaden your tastes.

 

[Chris C]

Check your times.
They called the police AFTER the postal police arrived. unexpectedly.

Not even the guilters claim this anymore. Lot of us started out like you. Reading biased news articles and speaking back those false claims. Just so you know, the camera that show the police arriving had the wrong time on it. Heck, even I occasionally pull out one of the old biased articles. No matter how you look at it, this statement you made is 100% wrong and had been proven. Even those at PMF will admit to that.

 

[Kestrel]

Check your times.
They called the police AFTER the postal police arrived. unexpectedly.

We hashed this one out several times already in this thread.

The Postal Police claimed to have arrived at a time roughly 25 minutes before Raffaele called the police and a half hour before Filomena and friends arrived. It would have taken only about 5 minutes for Amanda and Raffaele to show them the broken window, blood in the bathroom and the locked door. Do you honestly believe that after being told the situation, they hung around for 20 minutes doing nothing?

The real answer is simpler. The arrival of the Postal Police was recorded by the security camera across the street. As was the arrival of the Carabinieri, who had trouble finding the cottage and had to call for directions. Comparing the time that call ended with the security camera time stamp when the Carabinieri arrived shows the security camera clock was 10 minutes slow. Adjusting the security camera time by 10 minutes, we find the Postal Police arrived a few minutes after Raffaele called the police.

The evidence from the security camera and cell phone records is here.

ETA: The defense position is that the Postal Police arrived a few minutes before 1 PM. It would only take a few minutes for Raffaele and Amanda to show them the broken window, blood and locked door. Just as they are finishing up, Filomena and her friends arrive. There is no gap in the timeline, we don't have to wonder if the Postal Police nipped off for a quick beer after learning about a missing person.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA contamination and this case

Case of the flying DNA!

For your information all labs involved used scrupulous, standardized and tested conditions.
If contamination cannot be proved, then for all legal purposes, it doesn't exist.

Loverofzion,

Your statements reflect a certain amount of confusion about DNA contamination. It is up to the laboratory in question to prove that they are following standard protocols and running the correct control experiments. The Stefanoni lab did not provide instrument logs, protocols, or (most crucially) the electronic data files that would allow independent analysis of the raw data. Even if it were up to the defense to prove contamination (see below), they could not do so without access to all of the information. Moreover, the exact moment when a sample became contaminated is not always know, so your standard sets the bar so high that it would rule out contamination even in cases where its occurrence is undisputed.

It is also a mischaracterization to regard Dr. Stefanoni’s work on the DNA profile culled from the ordinary kitchen knife as standardized LCN testing. The test would have to be run in a laboratory outfitted with UV lighting, positive pressure airflow, and other precautions to minimize the changes of contamination. It would also have to be tested at least twice.

Your use of the term “flying DNA” is inappropriate for a serious discussion of this case. If you and Dr. Stefanoni (see my comment based on the Massei report upthread) think that DNA contamination is almost impossible, I suggest you ask Gregory Turner, Farah Jama, Gary Leiterman, Ms. P., or Profile N. I do not know the actual identities of the last two individuals, and I would not reveal them if I did. They suffered enough by being wrongly suspected of serious crimes on the basis of DNA contamination.

Here are a few links to help you get started.
LCN
fsa files
contamination
contamination II

 

[loverofzion]

What proof do you have that she wanted to mastermind the finding? Who called the police? If she wanted to mastermind the findings, along with sollecito, they would have had a very good alibi. Instead they had a confused allibi unsure about the exact times of the previous night. They where very sure about what they did. They where just unsure about the times they did them. If she was gonna mastermind the findings, why not turn merediths phones off and toss them in a dumpster somewhere. There was no masterminding in this murder. It was guede killing Meredith in a crime of passion and a prosecutor that cries satanic sex group crime when people die.
For some reason you have bought into this belief that Knox has the power to make men do whatever she wants. That somehow she was able to control 2 men that had never met each other before help her kill her roommate. Thats one of the most absurd ideas I have ever heard and it is what Mignini believes. Are you trying to tell us Knox at the age of 20, is capable of controlling men so strongly that they would both kill someone for her? I would love to see another case, thats not draped in stories of some witch in the 15th century, where a young girl was able to control 2 independent men that had NEVER met each other into committing murder together. No matter how you say it, it would be laughable if 2 people were not sitting in jail.
I always here the guilters say about how knox acted, "well thats not how I would have acted." Well let me say thats not how men act. These are not boys we are talking about. These are sexually experienced men living on their own. Even Rudy who many claim was a drifter and drug dealer. He is still an independent person. This guy is breaking into peoples home and threatening them with knives. He takes what he wants. He dont ask permission for it.

How would wanting to matermind finding Meredith's body provide them with a good alibi?
It doesn't affect what they were doing until that point, according to alibis.
Neither expressed any certainty about what they did; each provided no less than 3 alibis, with Raf at one point throwing Amanda under the bus, saying suddenly that he was not sure she was there with him all night!
Hey and guess what? They actually did take Meredith's phones and toss them into a ravine, one that surely they thought was deeper and less accessible to being found.

Who said anything about KNox controllilng two men? Surely this is your fantasy; I am not a middle aged male, that is. I have no fantasies about Knox's sexuality; that is you insinuating it with your controlling 2 men theory. Who ever said anything about the two men killing her for Amanda??! Surely your imagination is working overtime.
Sorry Chris you lost me on that last sentence. Something about the men being able to choose for themselves?
Again get over Knox.

Edited by Gaspode: 

Removed breach of rule 0

Keep it civil please.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Gaspode

 

[tsig]

Yes, it's very difficult not to see Amanda's handwritten note as shedding very serious doubt on the police statements she signed. Not unless you handpick sentences in isolation to make them say what you want them to say, as Massei did.

But regardless of whether Amanda retracted the confession, there seems to be a perception amongst some people that her not having done so immediately would be an indication that the confession wasn't coerced. In fact, as you say, this is entirely consistent with an internalized false confession:



Amanda's initial doubts about the 'confession' and her later realization that her original memory of being in Raffaele's flat was the real one are absolutely text book indications of a coerced-internalized false confession. Guess she must've been reading up on them...

It also followed all the text book indications of a lie.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

According to several posters at PMF, spelling 'newcomer' as "newcommer", and presumably 'becoming' as "becomming", is a dead giveaway that one is reading posts by a "FOAKer" sock puppet.

Does this mean you're about defect from the PMF ranks?

I'll never be a FOAKer, but at the same time, Amanda and RAf didn't kill Meredith, but lets say, they are were they belong.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Amanda's reactions

1.No one every doubted Amanda's ABILITY to cry; there were comments on the fact that she didn't show what is considered appropriate, i.e., sad, mournful affect upon learning of her roommate's murder. and
2.If you find that gum on the sole analogy good lit, well I suggest you get thee to a library and broaden your tastes.

Loverofzion,

You did not comprehend what you read. Amanda was shedding tears for several things, including the death of her friend. And this was at least the third undisputed time that Amanda had a strong emotional reaction to Meredith's death. She cried in a car ride (with Paola, IIRC), and when she saw the knives in her kitchen.

I did not say or mean good literature. I meant good writing from an undergraduate. However, I am considering reading some translations of historic French literature to broaden my tastes. If you have any suggestions, send me a PM.

 

[Chris C]

How would wanting to matermind finding Meredith's body provide them with a good alibi?
It doesn't affect what they were doing until that point, according to alibis.
Neither expressed any certainty about what they did; each provided no less than 3 alibis, with Raf at one point throwing Amanda under the bus, saying suddenly that he was not sure she was there with him all night!
Hey and guess what? They actually did take Meredith's phones and toss them into a ravine, one that surely they thought was deeper and less accessible to being found.

Who said anything about KNox controllilng two men? Surely this is your fantasy; I am not a middle aged male, that is. I have no fantasies about Knox's sexuality; that is you insinuating it with your controlling 2 men theory. Who ever said anything about the two men killing her for Amanda??! Surely your imagination is working overtime.
Sorry Chris you lost me on that last sentence. Something about the men being able to choose for themselves?
Again get over Knox.

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quote of moderated content

Me get over knox, that is funny. You forget what crime they where charged with together. This is mignini's theory. THis is the one that he told to the court. This is the theory he told the papers.

 

[RoseMontague]

If Amanda knew that Meredith had been killed she would have never returned to the cottage that morning. The police would have found only evidence of Rudy Guede and Rudy alone would be spending the rest of his life in prison.

Well she wanted to mastermind the finding , hopefully when her roommate Fiona was to have arrived.
Unfortunately time dragged on and Fiona didn't show up.

They were surpised by the postal police during the latter stages of their clean up.

I have neglected to welcome you here, glad to see some of those who believe in the guilt of Amanda and Raffaele venturing out a bit.

What evidence did Amanda and Raffaele supposedly clean up and what was still remaining in the latter stages of this clean up?

To your question about the ring-back commmment, it was an attempt at humor, the length of the call would have been longer as well. I would add that when I call my son and I don't want to hear the latest in rap music, I just hang up and he calls me right back. The poster above mentioned about the propensity of not leaving voicemails, the missed call feature works just like the old pager system on my cell.

 

[Chris C]

Loverofzion,

You did not comprehend what you read. Amanda was shedding tears for several things, including the death of her friend. And this was at least the third undisputed time that Amanda had a strong emotional reaction to Meredith's death. She cried in a car ride (with Paola, IIRC), and when she saw the knives in her kitchen.

I did not say or mean good literature. I meant good writing from an undergraduate. However, I am considering reading some translations of historic French literature to broaden my tastes. If you have any suggestions, send me a PM.

Start with these. Gargantua and Pantagruel

 

[RoseMontague]

I'll never be a FOAKer, but at the same time, Amanda and RAf didn't kill Meredith, but lets say, they are were they belong.

OK, I am not going to ask why that would be but I do want to know how long you think they should remain where they belong
for not killing Meredith¿¿¿

 

[katy_did]

On the subject of footprints, it's odd that people elsewhere are still being linked to a post on TJMK which gives the length of Rudy's footprint as 28cm in order to show he couldn't have made the bathmat print. I know that the actual length of his foot wasn't known at the time that post was written, so fair enough. But haven't the people who are still citing it (and actually accusing the FOA site of shrinking the same print on that basis) read the Massei report? It gives the actual size of Rudy's footprint. From page 348:

− a different length of the foot (which measures 247mm [Guede's foot], compared to the 245mm of finding 2 [luminol print], Sollecito’s foot being 244mm long)

Notice also that the possibility that Guede made the print is being ruled out here because his footprint is 2mm bigger than the blurry luminol print, while Sollecito's is 1mm smaller. Conclusive evidence indeed...

 

[RoseMontague]

Case of the flying DNA!

For your information all labs involved used scrupulous, standardized and tested conditions.
If contamination cannot be proved, then for all legal purposes, it doesn't exist.

The LCN testing employed by Stefanoni was not scrupulous, standardized or tested.

I am more interested in the truth of contamination or not rather than what the legal purposes of existance are. It is easy to show no contamination if you don't test for it or report it. The contamination logs (if they even exist) were requested by the defense and again on appeal. Were any of the "unidentified profiles" compared to the reference samples (if they even exist) of lab techs or forensic investigators? Any "unidentified profile" could be evidence of contamination. Stefanoni's testimony that there was no history of contamination at the lab is interesting. Not one single mishap. I don't believe they are looking very hard for contamination (if at all).

 

[katy_did]

It also followed all the text book indications of a lie.

Could you maybe explain, then, what you think the difference is between a 'lie' and a 'coerced internalized false confession', and how you think we should distinguish them? Or do you think they're one and the same thing? Cites to the relevant literature would be good.

 

[Chris C]

Case of the flying DNA!

For your information all labs involved used scrupulous, standardized and tested conditions.
If contamination cannot be proved, then for all legal purposes, it doesn't exist.

It goes both ways. If you can't prove you followed protocols and you can't prove it wasn't contaminated. Then, it must be contaminated.
There is video evidence that the clasp was moved prior to them returning to retrieve it. There are pictures showing the front door is open on the apartment when the crime scene is supposed to be sealed. There is video evidence of them passing the item between each other with dirty gloves and then accidentally dropping it on the floor. There is evidence that the DNA isn't even Sollecito's.

As for the Knife.
Too Low
Too Low
Too Low
Too Low
Too Low......
I'm sure you get the point. Stefanoni had to break factory seals and tamper with the machine to get Meredith's supposed profile. Only problem is, she didn't take any control measures before testing that sample. Let alone had it in the right type of lab. They wont release any information to prove they even did those tests. They just stick a piece of paper in the air. Hey look its Meredith's profile. When asked for the dna data files. They received a stone wall. Out Right Refusal.

 

[loverofzion]

Ah, the classic sign of a conspiracy theory. If the evidence isn't there to support the theory, claim it was cleaned up. Of course there is no evidence of any cleanup either. Maybe in the appeal the prosecution will work in a double body swap too.


BTW: Welcome to JREF. The moderators are paying particularly close attention to this thread since it just recently came off an extended period of moderated status. I recommend reviewing the membership agreement that you agreed to when you joined this forum.

What is the conspiracy you are referring to?
As for A and R, they staged Filomena's room to appear as if a burglar had broken in. They were not covering evidence of themselves at that point; rather they were deflecting attention from her murder to make it appear it was a a burglar who killed.
There is ample evidence as to the staging; for one the glass was shattered on the top of the clohtes; for two, nothing at all was taken, not designer sunglasses nor a computer ( a fact which Raf immediately offered in his call to the police. He ventured that nothing wsa taken; how on earth would he know that?

Thank you for reiterating your rules.
I am sure as long as one expresses himself respectfully, no matter what their opinion, their voice will be allowed to be heard on this site.

 

[Chris C]

What is the conspiracy you are referring to?
As for A and R, they staged Filomena's room to appear as if a burglar had broken in. They were not covering evidence of themselves at that point; rather they were deflecting attention from her murder to make it appear it was a a burglar who killed.
There is ample evidence as to the staging; for one the glass was shattered on the top of the clohtes; for two, nothing at all was taken, not designer sunglasses nor a computer ( a fact which Raf immediately offered in his call to the police. He ventured that nothing wsa taken; how on earth would he know that?

Thank you for reiterating your rules.
I am sure as long as one expresses himself respectfully, no matter what their opinion, their voice will be allowed to be heard on this site.

There is no evidence of staging. They only took a few pictures, which dont prove one way or the other. The few pictures that where taken. Prove the window was closed when the rock hit it. You can say there was glass on top of the clothes which proves it was staged. Except it was never proven the clothes where not already on the floor.

 

[loverofzion]

You need to review again the timeline of the phone calls. It is very revealing. Around 1pm it was already known there was a break in, and it was known that Meredith is not answering her phones - both of them were on voice mail.

Also reading her email it is noticeable how her state of mind changes:
from feeling a little uncomfortable into a more alarmed state later, when Meredith was not answering, and finally panic when the break-in and the locked Meredith's door is revealed.

Even though when questionbed if it was Meredith's usual habit to lock her door, Amanda said YES.
Her other 2 roommates quickly disputed this; saying Meredith NEVER locked her door except when she went home to England.

So...why would Amanda be "panicked" (her words) if it was the usual habit of Meredith to lock her door? Why did she lie about this detail? Why was she crawling out the window to check? Why did they try (not too hard mind you) to break down her door?

That's a lot of questions.

 

[loverofzion]

There is no evidence of staging. They only took a few pictures, which dont prove one way or the other. The few pictures that where taken. Prove the window was closed when the rock hit it. You can say there was glass on top of the clothes which proves it was staged. Except it was never proven the clothes where not already on the floor.

Sorry Chris wrong again.
Filomena was unanimously described as being very neat.
The clothes were NOT on the floor when she left; and yes, the glass pieces were sprinkled ON TOP of the contents of her room.
Plus what burglars don't take designer sunglasses or a computer in plain sight?

And finally how did Raf know that nothing had been taken when he first called the police to report the break-in?