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The "Nakba" Myth

Virus said:
Actually it's a powerhouse of innovation that has contributed many things to modern society. It's the Arab states that nobody would miss since they've never accomplished a single thing.
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You must have missed the mail from skeptic.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183517

It is too often stated that Israeli Jews cannot live with Palestinians, Arabs, or Muslims. I have no illusions about the uncompromising nature of radical Islam, or the tub of mass hatred that young children are forced to bathe in. Until the forces spreading this extremism are stopped, peace is impossible. But I saw very inspiring signs while in Israel.
One of the most common things I hear on talk radio — and at colleges — is that both sides just hate each other too much and are equally guilty. On the Israeli side, I never heard one negative generalization about Palestinians or Arabs.
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:confused:
 
Matt Giwer said:
A minor correction is not worth a diversion.
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Sourcing is regarded as a diversion now? Nice one.

It is one opinion that he did not however there is little question he got as far as Tyre which is being there.

Regardless of his sources, Palestine could only have been mentioned because it existed. There if no mention of any Judeans by him or by Alexander's chroniclers. By the available physical evidence the Palestinians pre-date the Judeans by centuries.
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First Herodotus supposedly went to Syria-Palestine, as Herodotus put it, since this was proven to be incorrect, now you're making the claim that he actually visited Tyre, part of what was stated to be Phonecia. All without sourcing.

The translation of the term into the present 'Palestine' did not refer to Arabs and neither did Herodotus refer to them as such. Retroactively applying the term to Palestinian Arabs of today does not make them the same people referred to living the in the region by that name.

Land ownership by the Palestinians is thus supported by British common law. That is good to know.
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Where did I say common law? It never extended to the British law, simply that 'title deeds' were handed out in the mid 1920's land reforms.

Asking for a source for 14 would also be an unnecessary diversion. Military deaths do not count of course. Death ratio matters as a disproportionate military response is in itself a war crime.
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'Palestinian mortar/missile fire' on wikipedia states this as such and is split up according to those who claimed responsibility and the weapons used (which is also distinct between the different groups operating in Gaza). Again, asking for sourcing is not a diversion, its a standard practice in debate.

You'll also notice in that link the Palestinians killed by these missiles/mortars falling short of Israeli targets.

Law of proportionality has nothing to do with a overall death ratio argument in international law:
Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives,[1] even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur.
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The old "Israel is no better than" approach should be retired.
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Your avoidance of when the blockade actually started is noted.

Unsourced and Haaretz hardly go together.
Both articles were from late 2005 after the removal of the criminal squatters.
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Link them. You do realize that in the 1948 war, a good portion of the Arabs displaced from what is now Israel relocated to Gaza. Bit of a smack in the face in calling those Jewish settlers as squatters, and the prior not.

According to zionists who are by definition murderers and thieves they were not borders. According to the UN they were borders. They are used as borders by the UN is all of its actions related to Israel such as the current more careful redetermination of the border with Lebanon and two years ago re-establishing the fact that Israel still occupies part of Lebanon known as the Shaaba Farms. The world court also accepted the UN determination of borders when it found essentially all of the apartheid wall was build beyond the borders of Israel.
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Stating the same drivel doesn't make it true. The mandate required both sides to agree to borders, since the Arab leadership rejected this, as well as subsequent UN resolutions via war and terrorism, doesn't make them de facto borders. You still haven't responded to the voided armistice lines either.

Shebaa farms, all 5 sq miles of it, wasn't claimed by Lebanon, but by Syria and their terrorist organization, Hezbollah.

Of course zionists can neither be wrong nor do wrong as they are a saintly people.
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Oh, the 'Israel can do no wrong' rhetoric. Never gets old :rolleyes:

You really don't know Hagana, Stern Gang, and Lehi were terrorist organizations?
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Stern and Lehi did execute terrorist attacks against Arabs and Jews alike, I have never denied this. Haganah, not so. Haganah even turned in Stern and Lehi gang members to the British to be hanged for these criminal activities.

When did they kidnap and publicly hang two enlisted members of the IDF as Jews did to two young British soldiers? When did they bomb a grocery store in retaliation for the arrest of a Palestinian as the Zionists used to bomb Palestinians markets (maximizing women and children) when one of theirs was arrested? How about bombing a hotel and then claiming innocence because a warning was phoned in? (I civilized countries even fake bomb threats are crimes.)
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No distinction between different precursors to the IDF. IDF did what? You can try and source at any time.

You really want a listing for Palestinian terrorist attacks? Here's a few:
List of Palestinian suicide attacks. Those just cover the suicide bombings.

Here's a nice one where a pregnant mother with her 4 children in the car were shot, the Palestinian terrorist walked up to the car, shot the 4 children in the head twice, aged 9, 11, 7 and 2, shot the mother again, and sliced her open killing her baby.

I give five or six authors before. Did you miss the list? The only one who has "recanted" is Morris so he is the darling of the zionist animals. Even he has given his basis for recantation: it lead to the founding of Israel which is the greater good. One has to be as low as a zionist to accept something like that.
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Nice. You gave a list of authors, I can too with specifics about the issues of the books these authors in your list wrote. Don't much care for the rest of this trolling and your reliance on a group of 'new historians' that have an issue with writing factual literature and actually having to abide by some sort of responsibility as writers in not writing fictional propaganda.
 
Matt Giwer said:
Yes, I am aware of izziehuggers torturing every fact until it confesses to having been an israeli innovation. Excuse me a JEWISH israeli innovation.
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It is all the desperate attempt of a truly inferior research country to feel important. But do not think this is anything new. All of bibleland never contributed a single thing to human civilization in any field. Not philosophy, architecture, math, science, literature, poetry, arts, nothing, nada, zilch. Why try to break a loser streak now?
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The whinging. I love it. Plenty of R&D in Israel from literature to the medical field. Too many to list here, but somehow you've tracked down every innovation. By the way, nobody mentioned 'Jewish Israeli innovation', just you. :rolleyes:
 
Virus said:
I think I did. It was in response to Giwer saying that Israel is a useless country.
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there is a great deal of evidence that Israel is currently more harm than good.

of course, this could change quickly.
 
a_unique_person said:
Interesting to observe Nakba deniers meeting Holocaust deniers.
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Interesting to see that to compare the Nakba to the Holocaust is still insane.

Even after 13 pages of thread, the argument is still cheap and meaningless.

You really have nothing else?
 
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BTW, Parky, how's your suggestion to have all Jews move to Israel coming along? You seem to want to suggest one thing in one thread, and suggest its exact opposite in another.

Wouldn't moving all Jews to Israel compound the effects of the Nakba? You still haven't answered my question.
 
The Prevention of Infiltration Law is an Israeli law enacted in 1954, in large, to prevent Palestinian refugees re-entry into Israel and allow for their re-expulsion, and in the case of Palestinians who were internally displaced within what became Israel, to allow for their expulsion from Israel if they attempted to return to their villages and towns.
After the 1948 Arab–Israeli War (known to Israelis as the "War of Independence" and to Palestinians as Al-Nakba, or "The Catastrophe") and the 1948 Palestinian exodus, many Palestinians who either fled or were expelled from their towns and villages, whether they had had altogether ventured beyond what became Israel (largely into the neighbouring Arab countries of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt) or were internally displaced, tried for many year since then to return to the places they had left. The Israeli Government enacted the Prevention of Infiltration Law in order to forbid and impede, what under the law receives the name of "infiltration", into Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevention_of_Infiltration_law

Its starting to make sense, why the Palestinians call it a "disaster".

How can Israelis accept this? This makes me very sad.
 
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I don't think anybody on this forum is denying the concept of displacement of peoples during these wars, primarily 1948, which is what the term 'naqba' in this case is referring to. However, the issue here is not if there were people, ie Palestinian Arabs displaced (~65% internal displacement), but the narrative associated with this term with attachment of the idea that this 'naqba' is something that befell the Palestinians and to paint the picture that there was only one set of victims on the one side, and that the Palestinians civilians themselves are exempt from responsibilities and actual involvement from the events that led up to the actual war in 1948 itself.

As stated before, this completely disregards the responsibilities of the Palestinian and regional Arab leaders that made a slew of bad decisions in pursuit of destroying Israel in its nascent state, often with the support of a good portion of the Palestinian populace. (And no, don't want the 'all', 'everybody', 'nobody', etc. rebuttal since all that needs to be established is that the Palestinian populace was not hapless or not involved)

As for the events themselves, ie displacement during this regional conflict (because nobody can disregard that this conflicts effects are localized in a small area), the numbers involved, and the events themselves, are not denied wholesale by those arguing to terms/events behind this 'naqba', as is the case with Holocaust denial. There's no extreme disparity between the number involved on both sides during this 'naqba' either.

So as a recap, to compare the Holocaust and the Naqba, the prior a direct and systematic effort to wipe a group of people off the face of the earth and that of displacement during time of war (ie an indirect consequence of war), and its discussion of it, and lastly to link this discussion with denial is preposterous, superficial, and a dirty attempt at guilt by association to quell any legitimate (not conspiracy theorist) discussion on the events in question.

Perhaps this will clear it up.
 
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bigjelmapro said:
I don't think anybody on this forum is denying the concept of displacement of peoples during these wars, primarily 1948, which is what the term 'naqba' in this case is referring to. However, the issue here is not if there were people, ie Palestinian Arabs displaced (~65% internal displacement), but the narrative associated with this term with attachment of the idea that this 'naqba' is something that befell the Palestinians and to paint the picture that there was only one set of victims on the one side, and that the Palestinians civilians themselves are exempt from responsibilities and actual involvement from the events that led up to the actual war in 1948 itself.

As stated before, this completely disregards the responsibilities of the Palestinian and regional Arab leaders that made a slew of bad decisions in pursuit of destroying Israel in its nascent state, often with the support of a good portion of the Palestinian populace. (And no, don't want the 'all', 'everybody', 'nobody', etc. rebuttal since all that needs to be established is that the Palestinian populace was not hapless or not involved)

As for the events themselves, ie displacement during this regional conflict (because nobody can disregard that this conflicts effects are localized in a small area), the numbers involved, and the events themselves, are not denied wholesale by those arguing to terms/events behind this 'naqba', as is the case with Holocaust denial. There's no extreme disparity between the number involved on both sides during this 'naqba' either.

So as a recap, to compare the Holocaust and the Naqba, the prior a direct and systematic effort to wipe a group of people off the face of the earth and that of displacement during time of war (ie an indirect consequence of war), and its discussion of it, and lastly to link this discussion with denial is preposterous, superficial, and a dirty attempt at guilt by association to quell any legitimate (not conspiracy theorist) discussion on the events in question.

Perhaps this will clear it up.
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That.
 
The term "Nakba denier" was coined to parody "Holocaust denier" and its use is a deliberate attempt to provoke and anger supporters of Israel by both comparing the "Nakba" to the Holocaust and by comparing supporters of Israel to Holocaust deniers.

It's just another aspect of what's seen in the darker corners of the internet, where people who enjoy provoking and angering Jews get their thrills by making Jewish/Nazi comparisons. They throw around terms like "ZioNAZI" or "ashkeNAZI" and make allegations that Jews consider themselves a "master-race". It's much milder here at the JREF, but it's the same thing.
 
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