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The "Nakba" Myth

Mycroft said:
That's a comparison.

So...you claim not to have compared the two events, then you argue that it should be okay for you to compare the two events.

Nice.

Without claiming the Holocaust is "holy", can you think of any reasons at all why it might be offensive to make comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany?
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If some people choose to be offended does that mean only their viewpoint can be expressed?
 
Skeptic said:
Suppose the Jews today claimed that, due to the holocaust,
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In Israel since 1948 down to this day it is anathema to suggest the success of the Zionist Enterprise had anything to do with the events of WWII. Why are you invoking what Israel rejects?

they will never be at peace unless Germany is utterly destroyed and all Germans exiled or killed. That would, indeed, be obsessing over the holocaust in a way that should be gotten over.

But this is precisely what Hamas, PLO, & co. are saying (and teaching their people), mutatis mutandis.
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If in 1948 the Zionists had declared their Israel in New York City and expelled 75% of the non-Jews

1) Do you think the US government would ever accept it?

2) How many days after their declaration of Israel do you think it would have taken before all the Zionists were floating face down in the Hudson River?
 
Thunder said:
I am going to write this in caps, so all who may be far-sighted can read it.

I AM NOT COMPARING THE HOLOCAUST TO THE NAKBA. THEY WERE TWO VERY DIFFERENT AND DISTINCT EVENTS.
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If they were different why do the Israelis refer to it with a name that means Nakbah?
 
Pardalis said:
Then stop comparing them.
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Compare and contrast is a learning skill which in the US students are supposed to master in the 8th grade.

It would seem anyone who has graduated the 8th grade should be able to contrast the two in response to a comparison.
 
Mycroft said:
Hey, you ran with the "Nabka Denier" theme once too. IIRC, you weren't able to identify exactly what "Nabka denial" was either. Do you want to have another shot at it now?
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oh yes, I remember the last thread when I outlined what nakba denial was and pointed out the resident nakba deniers matching the definition, yourself included.

memory fading again? I specifically defined nakba denial contrary to your above lie. I also specifically pointed out your statement that matched the definition.


but how about another example....from this thread.

"You have the Jewish leaders imploring them to stay and help build a nation together, then you have Arab leaders telling them to get out of the way so they won't hinder the carnage, and it's all just on the heels of an overall Arab rejection of the UN partition plan...?

There were certainly some Arabs who were forced into decisions not of their own choosing, Deir Yassin being the most noteworthy example, but the majority were not."

great stuff....typical denial, dismissal and/or minimalising of the suffering around the event.


just to highlight...

There were certainly some Arabs who were forced into decisions not of their own choosing, Deir Yassin being the most noteworthy example, but the majority were not.


breathtaking.....and disgusting. forget to mention the massacre? oh dear, they were just forced into decisions not of their own choosing?? like the decision to die?


I don't know why you whine about being misrepresented when people identify you as a nakba denier. You are unimpressed with the whole event....constantly putting scare quotes around any word that could possibly indicate that anything nasty went on... You are entitled to your opinions on what actually happened in world events just like Matt Giwer is but please don't get all indignant when your opinions earn you appropriate titles....Nakba denier, get used to it or study up on what happened beyond reading the novel "exodus"....
 
a_unique_person said:
Germany doesn't have Jews under it's military control. Jews are citizens of Germany and free to vote, they aren't relegated to second class citizens in a bantustan. Big difference.
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So based on yet another stellar correlation, Jews residing in Germany aren't like Hamas/PLO? ;)
 
The Fool said:
oh yes, I remember the last thread when I outlined what nakba denial was and pointed out the resident nakba deniers matching the definition, yourself included.

memory fading again? I specifically defined nakba denial contrary to your above lie. I also specifically pointed out your statement that matched the definition.


but how about another example....from this thread.

"You have the Jewish leaders imploring them to stay and help build a nation together, then you have Arab leaders telling them to get out of the way so they won't hinder the carnage, and it's all just on the heels of an overall Arab rejection of the UN partition plan...?

There were certainly some Arabs who were forced into decisions not of their own choosing, Deir Yassin being the most noteworthy example, but the majority were not."


great stuff....typical denial, dismissal and/or minimalising of the suffering around the event.
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And as usual, you can’t find anything I’ve actually denied, nor anything factual to refute, you just claim “denial, dismissal and/or minimalising (sic). As usual, you want to smear your opponents by making up creative names to call them rather than deal with the facts.

The Fool said:
just to highlight...

There were certainly some Arabs who were forced into decisions not of their own choosing, Deir Yassin being the most noteworthy example, but the majority were not.


breathtaking.....and disgusting. forget to mention the massacre? oh dear, they were just forced into decisions not of their own choosing?? like the decision to die?
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I assume that most people who die would, given the choice, choose not to die. I wasn’t speaking of the 100 people who were massacred but the remainder who left as a result. Those are the ones who were forced into their decision.

But you probably figured that. You just like to throw mud around.

The Fool said:
I don't know why you whine about being misrepresented when people identify you as a nakba denier. You are unimpressed with the whole event....constantly putting scare quotes around any word that could possibly indicate that anything nasty went on... You are entitled to your opinions on what actually happened in world events just like Matt Giwer is but please don't get all indignant when your opinions earn you appropriate titles....Nakba denier, get used to it or study up on what happened beyond reading the novel "exodus"....
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I think the OP makes a valid point in that the “Nakba” isn’t something that just happened to the Arabs but something they played a crucial role in making happen. I suppose since you seem to be in denial of that fact I can call you a “Nakba Denier” too.

I’ll also point out that between the two of us, Mr Giwer’s opinions are a lot closer to yours than to mine.
 
Mycroft said:
....
I think the OP makes a valid point in that the “Nakba” isn’t something that just happened to the Arabs but something they played a crucial role in making happen. I suppose since you seem to be in denial of that fact I can call you a “Nakba Denier” too.

.....
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Doesn't that depend on the point of view of when it started to be a Nakba?
When you regard the founding of a nation on the land you regard as yours as a disaster, then they would regard their wars as a justified reaction to this disaster. And not actually their own fault, or that they played a crucial rule in the Nekba other than victims.
Then that point you point out is like blaming Jews that resisted Arrest by Nazi troops.
 
DC said:
Doesn't that depend on the point of view of when it started to be a Nakba?
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Or why you consider it a disaster. Is it because someone else founded a nation? Is it because many of your people became refugees? Or is it because an attempt at genocide failed?



DC said:
Then that point you point out is like blaming Jews that resisted Arrest by Nazi troops.
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Would you consider having a bunch of people of a different ethnicity moving into your neighborhood and founding a nation to be the same as being arrested by Nazis? That seems really puzzling to me. Being arrested by Nazis means certain death, but having people of a different ethnicity move in? That just means having access to different foods and music.

If a bunch of people of a different ethnicity moved into my neighborhood and started talking about founding their own city or state, I can't imagine seeing that as being threatening. I certainly can't imagine resisting them with violence.
 
Mycroft said:
Or why you consider it a disaster. Is it because someone else founded a nation? Is it because many of your people became refugees? Or is it because an attempt at genocide failed?





Would you consider having a bunch of people of a different ethnicity moving into your neighborhood and founding a nation to be the same as being arrested by Nazis? That seems really puzzling to me. Being arrested by Nazis means certain death, but having people of a different ethnicity move in? That just means having access to different foods and music.

If a bunch of people of a different ethnicity moved into my neighborhood and started talking about founding their own city or state, I can't imagine seeing that as being threatening. I certainly can't imagine resisting them with violence.
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This is a level of tolerance that is not existent. You are the first i see.

i am pretty sure the realization of their desire to form a nation in your neighborhood is a guarantor for violence.

For me there may move in as many people as want to, but then here forming their own nation? No way.
 
The subject is the Palestinians whom the Jews had planned to kill or expel
ever since Herzl dreamed of spiriting them across the border and was put
into writing by Jabotinsky, The Iron Wall and others in the early 1920s.

The truth of the Palestinian version of the expulsion has been documented by
Israeli Jews using declassified Israeli government records. Yes they were
murdered or driven out by jewish terrorists. Irgun, Haganah, Stern Gang and
others all designated murderers and terrorists. One of their fun tricks was
if the Brits arrested one of their members they would set off a bomb in a
market to kill the most women and children as possible. This stuff is in
the history books. Try Tom Segev, Ilan Pappe and even Benny Morris if you
are unfamiliar with the real history of Israel. Do yourself a favor and
purge yourself of the Hasbara == propaganda --- isrealty you have been led
to believe.

As to the UN partition plan, the land was not the UN's give. And the map we
always see was part of a report upon which the UN's sole action was the
General Assembly adopting it. Needless to say General Assembly actions have
never had all legal authority that is reserved for the Security Counsel.

But wait! THERE'S MORE! The plan did nothing more than offer sovereignty.
Sovereignty is not now nor has it ever been ownership. As the Sultan of
Turkey responded when Herzl's delegation asked for Palestine, I only rule
the land, I do not own the land.

Lets take a serious look at the expulsion. Lets say it had never happened.
What would have been the result of the first election? The entire Zionist
Enterprise would have been trashcanned. So there was no choice but to get
rid of as many voters as possible else it was all a waste of effort. 750,000
expelled is the accepted number of the expelled.

But after they were expelled the Jews of Israel passed laws regarding
absentee owners on one hand and on the other murdered anyone trying to
return to their property -- anyone trying to cease to be absent. This even
applied to those who were not expelled but forced into ghettos where they
lived under military curfew for eight years. The curfew only ended after
some fifty workers were murdered at one time because the hour had been made
earlier and they had not heard of the change. Anyway by 1952 Jews had stolen
most of the land under color of law.

So the entire issue boils down to a very simple statement.

Jews stole the land. The owners want it back.

It does not take too much time reading sources like haaretz.com and
jpost.com to learn all this stuff. I prefer my sources to be totally biased
in favor of Israel.

One more thing. That radio broadcast from the armies attacking Palestine
telling the Palestinians to leave. It never happened. That is nothing more
than Zionist propaganda.

=====

So all this antisemitic talk connecting the establishment of Israel with WWII is irrelevant. Such a connection is condemned in Israel for not giving the Zionist Enterprise full credit. Of course antisemitic because it credits the Nazis with the establishment of Israel. In light of the facts, No Nazis == No Israel it appears Zionist terror would have eventually won the day as that is the nature of terrorism.
 
Mycroft said:
And as usual, you can’t find anything I’ve actually denied, nor anything factual to refute, you just claim “denial, dismissal and/or minimalising (sic). As usual, you want to smear your opponents by making up creative names to call them rather than deal with the facts.
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Nakba denial is not a creative name...its two words that clearly express an attitude. I know you don't outright deny....neither does Giwer outright deny the holocaust but that doesn't mean he isn't a holocaust denier does it.





I assume that most people who die would, given the choice, choose not to die. I wasn’t speaking of the 100 people who were massacred but the remainder who left as a result. Those are the ones who were forced into their decision.

But you probably figured that. You just like to throw mud around.


I think the OP makes a valid point in that the “Nakba” isn’t something that just happened to the Arabs but something they played a crucial role in making happen.
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QED...this is a common line among Holocaust deniers....The jews bought it on themselves whereas the Nakba denier believes the Palestinians bought it on themselves. Those that died at Deir Yassin....were just asking for it with their troublemaking attitude?? Those that fled because of the spreading terror and fear of ending up the same? Played a crucial role in bringing it on themselves?

every time you shine the light on yourself on this topic you just dig yourself deeper.
 
Mycroft said:
Without claiming the Holocaust is "holy", can you think of any reasons at all why it might be offensive to make comparisons between Israel and Nazi Germany?
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ethnic cleansing and forced exiles will be compared to the Nazis. that's just how it is.

it is unfortunate that one of these ethnic cleansings took place at the hands of a Jewish state, but it is what it is.

past suffering does not make one immune from common sense criticism.

Abe Foxman may think its ok for those who have suffered to have ideas that are bigoted, but they surely don't have the right to turn their bigotry into violence.
 
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DC said:
This is a level of tolerance that is not existent. You are the first i see.

i am pretty sure the realization of their desire to form a nation in your neighborhood is a guarantor for violence.

For me there may move in as many people as want to, but then here forming their own nation? No way.
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You're speaking from the point of view of a citizen of a nation that has existed for centuries, but we're speaking of a region of a fallen empire that hadn't been it's own nation for thousands of years.
 
Mycroft said:
You're speaking from the point of view of a citizen of a nation that has existed for centuries, but we're speaking of a region of a fallen empire that hadn't been it's own nation for thousands of years.
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well it seems there are some people that regard a land theirs, even after 1000's of years it was not theirs. They never gave up on it. It remained in their hearts and prayers, until they finally got it back.
 
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