Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Sherlock Holmes]

Amanda also has an Alibi other than Sollecito that makes it near impossible to be present for a ToD between 9 and 9:30

Really, care to share.......

 

[JREF2010]

I agree with you that she arrived home at about 9 (there is evidence to support this) and that someone else was messing with her phone at 10 (probably, but no real evidence) but as far as I can tell there is zero evidence that Rudy entered the home before Meredith did. What evidence do you know of that he did?

There's no open bottle or evidence of a snack. But there was an open package of mushrooms in the refrigerator, so it is possible that she ate a raw mushroom when she arrived home.

The preponderance of evidence is clear. The remains of her 6 pm meal were still in her stomach, suggesting that she was killed within three hours of eating. She tried to call her mother at 8:56 pm, but the call was not completed, and she made no further effort to contact her mother. And then the next activity with the phone suggests a random pushing of buttons. We know how Massei has worked all that out... she was playing with her phone, the bum in the park is more reliable than the pathology report, etc. But the truth is that Guede was in the house when she got home, and he blitzed her almost immediately. She was dead well before 10 pm.

I agree the 8:56pm is an important call.

1) If she was fumbling around mistakenly, she would have retried to re-dial.
2) If she was attacked she couldn't re-dial.
3) If she was fumbling around playing, she did this for over an hour.

1) As I see it, she called home a lot, even had a special phone for this reason. how many people have an extra phone just to call their sick mother and family? Her scenario that night was an evening of nothingness to get home early, and no one for company and socializing. A perfect quiet time to call the parents.

2) The only other statement I can think of for 8:56pm, is Rudy's own testimony he approached Meredith at approx. 9pm. Rudy says he was there alone with Meredith. He actually had arrived at 7:30pm, if I recall correctly. (Micheli report)

3) Massei prefers that she was fumbling with her phone.
But this means she fumbled with it for over an hour?
8:56 to 10:13 Meredith sat making partial cancelled calls on her phone instead of studying or sleeping? Thats a lot of time fumbling about with a phone.

Does Mignini or Massei have proof she had a "behavioral trend" of making partial calls? I missed that if there is.
Was there a cell log that shows Meredith had a habitual trend of fumbling with her phone and cancelling calls to her mom or banks at night? I doubt it.

 

[Mary_H]

I agree the 8:56pm is an important call.

1) If she was fumbling around mistakenly, she would have retried to re-dial.
2) If she was attacked she couldn't re-dial.
3) If she was fumbling around playing, she did this for over an hour.

1) As I see it, she called home a lot, even had a special phone for this reason. how many people have an extra phone just to call their sick mother and family? Her scenario that night was an evening of nothingness to get home early, and no one for company and socializing. A perfect quiet time to call the parents.

2) The only other statement I can think of for 8:56pm, is Rudy's own testimony he approached Meredith at approx. 9pm. Rudy says he was there alone with Meredith. He actually had arrived at 7:30pm, if I recall correctly. (Micheli report)

3) Massei prefers that she was fumbling with her phone.
But this means she fumbled with it for over an hour?
8:56 to 10:13 Meredith sat making partial cancelled calls on her phone instead of studying or sleeping? Thats a lot of time fumbling about with a phone.

Does Mignini or Massei have proof she had a "behavioral trend" of making partial calls? I missed that if there is.
Was there a cell log that shows Meredith had a habitual trend of fumbling with her phone and cancelling calls to her mom or banks at night? I doubt it.

Page 330 of the Motivations Report: "Nothing compels [us], among the circumstantial evidence available, to consider that the assault took place in the minutes between 21.58 and 22.00 of 1.11, and not rather merely moments of relaxation during which Meredith Kercher, still alone in the house and probably just lying on her own bed, was absent-mindedly playing with the mobile phone in her hand."

And here is where he got the idea for that image:

 

[Chris C]

Really, care to share.......

Antonio Curatolo: This Prosecution witness claims to have seen Knox and Sollecito on the basketball court between from 9:30 to Midnight

Sollecito's computer: Has him opening and closing a file at 9:46 pm. Since Sollecito is at the court with Knox around 9:30. Means she could not have been at the Meredith's house at 9:30, since she was somewhere else at 9:30. Since knox/sollecito are together in park at 9:30 then they would have been together during Sollecito's computer activity around 9:30. Sollecito also had computer activity around 9:10pm.

Guede says knox wasn't there in a Skype message.

Knox seen at Sollecito's place by a witness at 8:40pm

Couple bumps into a black man walking fast with his head down outside of parking garage around 10pm. They also notice a car broke down and a man on the cell phone.

Maybe that will help your theory some.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

There's no open bottle or evidence of a snack. But there was an open package of mushrooms in the refrigerator, so it is possible that she ate a raw mushroom when she arrived home.

The preponderance of evidence is clear. The remains of her 6 pm meal were still in her stomach, suggesting that she was killed within three hours of eating. She tried to call her mother at 8:56 pm, but the call was not completed, and she made no further effort to contact her mother. And then the next activity with the phone suggests a random pushing of buttons. We know how Massei has worked all that out... she was playing with her phone, the bum in the park is more reliable than the pathology report, etc. But the truth is that Guede was in the house when she got home, and he blitzed her almost immediately. She was dead well before 10 pm.

I believe the bolded element of your post is very interesting and could actually fit in with a possible scenario I have just run through my mind...

It has been well documented that Rudy stated that he drunk from an orange carton, which was in the refrigerator - why was he so concerned to point that out...was he worried that evidence would place him in the kitchen, which is WHERE HE INITIALLY GRABBED MEREDITH?!? If this hypothesis is correct, could that explain why the mushroom (if that is what it was) was found in Meredith's oesophagus? It also fits in with the proposals put forward by many to suggest an earlier T.O.D. in fitting with the attack happening very soon after Meredith arrived home.

 

[Dan O.]

I seriously dont understand how the girl that says she walked Meredith halfway home, wasn't more of a suspect than Knox/Sollecito. Knox/Sollecito had a better alibi than that girl. After all ,she was in Meredith's physical presence during the Time of Death window. I mean, according to the ToD from the autopsy its very possible Kercher died within 5 mins of the last time she says she saw Meredith. How does she manage to get an alibi in 5 minutes. Like i have said before though, I dont think her friend did it, I'm just showing that she should have been more of a suspect than knox.

Chris, why do you keep pointing a finger at Sophie Purton? She has been most helpful to the prosecution from the beginning of this case. If it weren't for Sophie establishing the time she walked Meredith home, we wouldn't know that Meredith wasn't killed before 9pm. Sophie even went back to the police station on Nov. 17 to change her story so the police would know that at exactly 8:55 Meredith was still alive and safe and only 5 minutes walk from her cottage. When Sophie left Meredith on the corner of Via del Lupo she was only a few steps away from her own home where she was going to watch a television show.

Sophie was also helpful in portraying Amanda as someone that brought boys back to the cottage and bringing up the dispute between Amanda and Meredith about toilet cleaning. A suspect would never do that.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Antonio Curatolo: This Prosecution witness claims to have seen Knox and Sollecito on the basketball court between from 9:30 to Midnight

Sollecito's computer: Has him opening and closing a file at 9:46 pm. Since Sollecito is at the court with Knox around 9:30. Means she could not have been at the Meredith's house at 9:30, since she was somewhere else at 9:30. Since knox/sollecito are together in park at 9:30 then they would have been together during Sollecito's computer activity around 9:30. Sollecito also had computer activity around 9:10pm.

Guede says knox wasn't there in a Skype message.

Knox seen at Sollecito's place by a witness at 8:40pm

Couple bumps into a black man walking fast with his head down outside of parking garage around 10pm. They also notice a car broke down and a man on the cell phone.

Maybe that will help your theory some.

Sorry, but none of that allows for an alibi for Amanda for being at the house between about 8:45 and 9:30 which you stated she had.

 

[katy_did]

Sollecito's computer: Has him opening and closing a file at 9:46 pm. Since Sollecito is at the court with Knox around 9:30. Means she could not have been at the Meredith's house at 9:30, since she was somewhere else at 9:30.

I think the computer activity was at 22.26, and it was a 20 minute media file (hence the 22.46 time). Doesn't prove they watched it of course, though it seems odd that someone would start a 20 minute film to give them an alibi (you'd put the Lord of the Rings omnibus or something on instead, wouldn't you?).

 

[katy_did]

Page 330 of the Motivations Report: "Nothing compels [us], among the circumstantial evidence available, to consider that the assault took place in the minutes between 21.58 and 22.00 of 1.11, and not rather merely moments of relaxation during which Meredith Kercher, still alone in the house and probably just lying on her own bed, was absent-mindedly playing with the mobile phone in her hand."

And here is where he got the idea for that image:

Yes, I remember you mentioning that a while back and thinking it was an excellent point. I completely agree. Just shows how much of an influence the media reporting and images actually have...

 

[LondonJohn]

Chris, why do you keep pointing a finger at Sophie Purton? She has been most helpful to the prosecution from the beginning of this case. If it weren't for Sophie establishing the time she walked Meredith home, we wouldn't know that Meredith wasn't killed before 9pm. Sophie even went back to the police station on Nov. 17 to change her story so the police would know that at exactly 8:55 Meredith was still alive and safe and only 5 minutes walk from her cottage. When Sophie left Meredith on the corner of Via del Lupo she was only a few steps away from her own home where she was going to watch a television show.

Sophie was also helpful in portraying Amanda as someone that brought boys back to the cottage and bringing up the dispute between Amanda and Meredith about toilet cleaning. A suspect would never do that.

I agree. Suspecting Sophie Purton makes no sense - she was a girl friend of Meredith's, and did everything she could to help the police with the investigation. Unlike Amanda Knox.......oh, wait.......................

 

[LondonJohn]

*sigh* It appears to bear repeating:

Why should Knox or Sollecito's defence teams (or the prosecutors, for that matter) care one iota about whether English language versions of the Massei report or the appeal documents are publicly available? The only people who actually need or deserve to have an English translation of these documents are Knox and her immediate family, and Meredith's immediate family - and arguably the US State Department. Nobody else.

In addition, it's highly improbable that Dalla Vedova or Ghirga would care whatsoever whether the English-speaking public is getting a good translation, a bad translation, or no translation of any of these documents. Why should they care? Their job is to defend Amanda Knox in a series of Italian courts, dealing exclusively with the Italian judiciary in the Italian language. I certainly hope they aren't spending any time or effort concerning themselves with the court of public opinion in the English-speaking world. Whether or not a bunch of international internet bloggers/posters (including me) can read these documents in the English language is totally irrelevant in deciding the outcome of the case, and should be right at the very bottom of their list of priorities.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA in domestic violence cases

I wanted to update everyone on the issue of DNA transfer during strangulation. I have been communicating with a forensic nurse about their domestic violence program. If an alleged victim complained of an attempted strangulation, complained of a partner’s grabbing their arm, or showed bruising or redness, they have been swabbing that area for DNA, for two years. Positive results in at least one case helped to convict someone.

This information confirms the reasonableness of swabbing Meredith’s body in appropriate places, although we do not know whether it was done or not. If Amanda strangled Meredith, where is Amanda’s DNA?

 

[LondonJohn]

I wanted to update everyone on the issue of DNA transfer during strangulation. I have been communicating with a forensic nurse about their domestic violence program. If an alleged victim complained of an attempted strangulation, complained of a partner’s grabbing their arm, or showed bruising or redness, they have been swabbing that area for DNA, for two years. Positive results in at least one case helped to convict someone.

This information confirms the reasonableness of swabbing Meredith’s body in appropriate places, although we do not know whether it was done or not. If Amanda strangled Meredith, where is Amanda’s DNA?

As I think has been pointed out before, there are only two possibilities here: either the police did swab the arms, neck and mouth area, and found nothing, or they neglected to swab some or all of these areas. I would wager that it's the latter. For example, I can't believe that the visible finger marks on Meredith's neck wouldn't have resulted in a transfer of DNA. I think I can guess whose DNA it would have been as well.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

one needs time to get messed up

Sorry, but none of that allows for an alibi for Amanda for being at the house between about 8:45 and 9:30 which you stated she had.

Except that Ms. Popovic described Amanda as acting normally. So, one needs to allow Amanda (and Raffaele, too, I suppose) time to smoke or to drink (or whatever Massei's Reefer Madness explanation requires them to do) first and then commit a heinous crime.

 

[katy_did]

Here's some information from Raffaele's appeal on the 'time of death' issue, and what the defence are arguing:

...all the consultants of the prosecution and the experts, whilst acknowledging the interpretive difficulty of using the gastric contents for thanato-chronological* purposes, identified the time of death with respect to the typology and quantity of gastric contents and to the composition of the last known meal as follows:

• Dr. Lalli: at a distance of not more than 2-3 hours from the consumption of the last meal (see errate corrige [Latin: correction of error] on 15.2.2008, acquired during the trial hearing, and p. 47 of the stenotyped record from the hearing of 3.4.09);
• Prof. Bacci and Dr. Liviero: at a distance of 2-3/3-4 hours from the last meal which was consumed in a discontinuous way from 18.00 and ended at about 20.00 on 1.11.07, as demonstrated by the fact that the stomach was full and the duodenum empty, indicating that gastric emptying had not yet begun (p. 64 hearing 4.4.09; p. 32 hearing 18.4.09);
• Prof. Umani Ronchi: at a distance of 3-4 hours from the last meal (p. 30 hearing 19.9.09).

On the basis of these specifications it can be stated that, even taking into account the widest range indicated by the majority of the consultants, the time of death would be no later than 22.50 on 1.11.2007.

However, it is possible from a scientific point of view to further restrict such a range using the gastric contents, in terms of size (500 cc.) and composition (pastry, mozzarella, vegetables, apple slices), and comparing this with the last meal eaten by the victim as reported by witnesses: the time of death would in this way be placed, based on forensic criteria of maximum reliability (on account of the individual and converging viewpoints of the various consultant and experts), at a distance of 2-3/3-4 hours from the start of the consumption of the last known meal (18.30-19.00 on 1.11.2007) and thus at about 21.30-22.00.

The identification of the time of death as 21.30-22.00 on 1.11.2007 finds confirmation:

• in the correspondence, in terms of quantity (500 cc. or about a kilo of food) and quality (pizza with mozzarella and vegetables, and apple slices), between food consumed during the last meal on 1.11.2007, and the stomach contents of the body;
• in the absence in Meredith’s stomach of fragments of food different to those described by her friends as having been consumed during the meal on 1.11.2007;
• in the empty duodenum, which (having been properly closed by ligation as can be seen in the autopsy) is indicative of the fact gastric emptying had not yet started;
• in the uncertainty about the nature of the vegetable fragment found in the distal third of the oesophagus, never subject to product analysis and which can reasonably be assumed to be a slice of apple.

* Does anyone know if there's an English term for 'things relating to time of death' or 'study of the time of death'? The Italian term is 'tanatocronologici', which I think must be a combination of 'thanatological' (to do with death) and 'chronological' (to do with time), thus meaning WTTE of 'determination of time of death'. I can't find an English equivalent, so just coined the word 'thanato-chronological'...

 

[katy_did]

And the Italian of the above:

...tutti i consulenti dell’accusa ed i periti, pur ammettendo le difficoltà interpretative del contenuto gastrico ai fini tanatocronologici, hanno individuato l’epoca di morte rispetto alla tipologia e quantità di contenuto gastrico ed alla composizione dell’ultimo pasto noto nel modo che segue:

- dott. Lalli: a distanza di non più di 2-3 ore dall’assunzione dell’ultimo pasto (cfr errate corrige del 15/2/2008 acquisita in sede dibattimentale e verbale stenotipico p. 47 ud. 3.4.09);
- Prof. Bacci e dott.ssa Liviero: a distanza di 2-3/3-4 ore dall’ultimo pasto che dalle ore 18 era stato consumato in modo discontinuo fino alle ore 20 circa dell’1.11, come dimostrato dal fatto che lo stomaco era pieno e il duodeno vuoto, indicativo che lo svuotamento gastrico non era ancora iniziato (p. 64 ud. 4.4.09; p. 32 ud.18.4.09);
- Prof. Umani Ronchi: a distanza di 3-4 ore dall’ultimo pasto (p. 30 ud. 19.9.09). 168

Sulla base di tali precisazioni si può affermare che, pur tenendo conto del più ampio range indicato dalla maggior parte dei consulenti, l’epoca della morte sarebbe collocabile alle ore 22:50 del l’1.11.2007.

È possibile, tuttavia, da un punto di vista scientifico, restringere ulteriormente tale range, utilizzando il contenuto gastrico, per entità (500 cc.) e per composizione (pasta frolla, mozzarella, vegetali, fettine di mela), nonché il confronto tra lo stesso e l’ultimo pasto assunto dalla vittima riferito dai testi: l’epoca di morte sarebbe in tal modo collocabile, in base ad un criterio medico-legale di massima attendibilità (stante le univoche e convergenti opinioni dei vari consulenti e periti), a distanza di 2-3/3-4 ore dall’inizio dell’assunzione dell’ultimo pasto noto (ore 18:30-19:00 dell’1.11.2007) e quindi intorno alle ore 21:30-22:00.

L’ascrivibilità dell’epoca di morte alle ore 21:30-22:00 dell’1.11.2007 ha trovato conferma:

- nella corrispondenza, per quantità (500 cc. pari a circa mezzo chilo di alimenti) e qualità (pizza con mozzarella e vegetali, nonché torta di mele), tra alimenti assunti durante l’ultimo pasto dell’1.11.2007, e contenuto gastrico della salma;
- nell’assenza nello stomaco di Meredith di frammenti alimentari diversi rispetto a quelli descritti dalle amiche della stessa, come consumati durante la cena dell’1.1.2007;
- nel duodeno vuoto, che (essendo stato debitamente chiuso mediante legatura così come si vede nel filmato autoptico), è indicativo del mancato inizio dello svuotamento gastrico;
- nella aleatorietà della natura attribuita al frammento vegetale rilevato al III distale dell’esofago, mai sottoposto ad esame merceologico e che ragionevolmente può essere ricondotto ad una fettina di mela.

 

[RoseMontague]

Someone please expalin (not a typo) this reasoning to me. From the PMF translation of the Massei report:

385
It should therefore be considered that the taking of the telephones and the locking of
the door of Meredith’s room were aimed at preventing someone [415] from
prematurely entering the English student’s room and discovering what had
happened in there, and this, probably, because of the need to check for possible
compromising traces left behind, and the necessity, in that case, of eliminating these
traces.
A plan which, as has been said, is confirmed by the testimony of Quintavalle:
entering the shop which also sold cleaning products at opening time, shows an
unquestionable urgency which is easily explained by the objective indicated, [and]
all the more so because that going into [the shop] and at such an early hour, was
denied by the defendant Amanda Knox.
This action of checking and cleaning was carried out, therefore, in the very early
hours of the morning of 2 November. And also this circumstance constitutes a clue
to the charge of both defendants: of both because it must have been a common [joint]
decision, taken at the time the mobile phones were taken and Meredith’s room was
locked; carrying out [the task of going to the store] was entrusted to Amanda alone
since, if they had been together, and someone had seen them at that time of the
morning, they would have been far more noticeable and if they had met anyone who
knew them, they would have most likely have had to give an explanation.
That this action of cleaning could have been carried out the same night, immediately
after the murder, seems difficult to hypothesis e. To linger on in the house where
Meredith’s body lay could have been risky. On the contrary, returning in the
morning would have allowed [them] to do the cleaning under better conditions and
with more time available; it is also possible that more cleaning products were
needed, as the visit to Quintavalle’s shop leads us to believe. Furthermore, once the
mobile phones had been taken, and the door had been locked, there would have
been no compelling reason not to put off the cleaning until early the next morning. If
anyone had arrived at the house (Silenzi, for example) the closed door would have
convinced him or her that Meredith was not in her room, and the impossibility of
hearing Meredith’s phones ring would not have given rise to any suspicion.

 

[LondonJohn]

Wow - I've just started reading the Massei report from start to finish, and his reasoning is quite something to behold. Here he is on page 53-54 of the translation, justifying the Postal Police's and Filomena's interference in the crime scene of Filomena's room (my emphasis):

"As she (Filomena) is usually very orderly, the witness also stated that she entered into her own room and searched around to see if anything was missing, and during that search she moved objects, thus changing the position of some pieces of glass. At that moment, however, only the Postal Police officers were present, and they were there to understand why two mobile phones had been found in the garden of a house in via Sperandio; the broken window pane indicated a robbery which seemed entirely independent from the finding of the telephones; thus it seemed perfectly natural and almost automatic for them to enter the room with the broken glass without taking any particular precautions, focusing only on the task of finding out if anything was missing. Thus, the movement of objects was perfectly natural, as was the progressive modification of the situation in Romanelli's room with respect to the pieces of glass which, having been found and noted on top of objects, were then allowed to fall and moved around during the search which, it can be imagined, Romanelli made with a certain agitation and anxiety due to worry and the strong [43] disturbance that she was feeling."

So Massei is essentially reasoning that since the Postal Police officers were confronted by evidence of a crime that was unrelated to the returning of the mobile phone(s), this excused them from having to take precautions upon entering Filomena's bedroom.

Bear in mind that before the Postal Police officers even entered the house, they were told by Knox and Sollecito that Filomena's window was broken, and that there appeared to be broken glass and disruption of belongings inside her room.

Massei concludes that it was "perfectly natural" for trained police officers to enter a room - which they already knew had a broken window and where it was highly likely that some sort of criminal activity had taken place - and move objects and glass around seemingly with impunity, and to also allow Filomena to do the same. Massei goes on to further excuse the Postal Police officers' behaviour on account of Filomena's "agitation and anxiety".

This excusing of the behaviour of the Postal Police, in what they had to assume at that point was most likely the scene of a break-in and attempted burglary (as well as a missing person with a locked door and blood), is - to my mind - extraordinary. The Postal Police should have phoned or radioed for proper assistance as soon as they were informed of the more serious nature of the situation at the girls' house. And, at the very least, they should have been careful to preserve Filomena's room as a crime scene. In addition, given the fact that they immediately established that the mobile phones belonged to Meredith - whose bedroom door was locked and whose bathroom had visible blood traces - they should probably have called in colleagues who dealt with serious crimes, before even setting foot in the house.

 

[Antony]

Value of online debate

(msg #4331)

In addition, it's highly improbable that Dalla Vedova or Ghirga would care whatsoever whether the English-speaking public is getting a good translation, a bad translation, or no translation of any of these documents. Why should they care? Their job is to defend Amanda Knox in a series of Italian courts, dealing exclusively with the Italian judiciary in the Italian language. I certainly hope they aren't spending any time or effort concerning themselves with the court of public opinion in the English-speaking world.

All this is true, but it doesn't mean that the online debate, at JREF or elsewhere, is futile. I think it highly likely that Amanda and Raffaele will be exonerated at their coming appeal, after which they (or, rather, their lawyers) will face a new problem: dealing with the extraordinary amount of defamatory misinformation that has characterised the discussion of the case, and which will undoubtedly continue to be repeated after they are released.

Anything you and other informed sympathisers can do to challenge the falsehoods will make this process easier, and indeed assist less well-informed sympathisers (which I count myself as one) in being able to recognise the misinformation and respond to it.

 

[Kestrel]

This excusing of the behaviour of the Postal Police, in what they had to assume at that point was most likely the scene of a break-in and attempted burglary (as well as a missing person with a locked door and blood), is - to my mind - extraordinary. The Postal Police should have phoned or radioed for proper assistance as soon as they were informed of the more serious nature of the situation at the girls' house. And, at the very least, they should have been careful to preserve Filomena's room as a crime scene. In addition, given the fact that they immediately established that the mobile phones belonged to Meredith - whose bedroom door was locked and whose bathroom had visible blood traces - they should probably have called in colleagues who dealt with serious crimes, before even setting foot in the house.

It's rather strange that here a Postal Police officer is excused for disturbing the crime scene, something that a trained burglary investigator should never do. Elsewhere in the report, the court accepts that this same officer has the expertise to immediately recognize a staged burglary.