Who started both World Wars?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Here an article from Australia, of all places:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/04/SMH190401.html

There seems to have been a PM in the outback with some sense:

A SECRET letter written by Prime Minister Robert Menzies eight days after World War II started, with Hitler's armies invading Poland, said that "nobody cares a damn about Poland" and that "it is really quite indefensible for us to be dictating to the German people what sort of government they should have".
Click to expand...

The letter dates from September 11, 1939

Menzies expressed confidence that Hitler "had no desire for a first class war" and would offer peace talks after defeating Poland.

Suggesting that the Allies should be prepared to negotiate, he said: "The point that is really clear in my mind is that some very quick thinking will have to be done when the German offer arrives." He raised the possibility of "a resettlement of the whole map of Europe with joint and several guarantees all round".
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Ah wait, here is the opinion of Irving, written in the 2001 edition of Hitler's War, page 240:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Hitler/2001/HW_Web_dl.pdf

Thus Hitler’s peace feelers toward London were sincere – not just a ploy to drive a wedge between Britain and France. Weizsäcker wrote early in October: ‘The attempt to wind up the war now is for real. I myself put the chances at twenty percent, [Hitler] at fifty percent; his desire is 100 percent. If he obtained peace . . . it would eliminate the awkward decision as to how to reduce Britain by military means.’ Early in September Göring had hinted to the British through Birger Dahlerus that Germany would be willing to restore sovereignty to a Poland shorn of the old German provinces excised from the Fatherland at the end of the Great War; there would also be a reduction in German armaments. The British response had been a cautious readiness to listen to the detailed German proposals. Hitler told Dahlerus in Berlin late on September 26 that if the British still wanted to salvage anything of Poland, they would have to make haste, and now he could do nothing without consulting his Russian friends. Dahlerus left for London at once.
Click to expand...

We all know that the British were looking for war and declined the reasonable offer Hitler had made. The WW1-allies had imposed a Carthaginian peace on Germany in 1918. Under Hitler, Germany was in the process of liberating itself from the stranglehold of the Anglo/French predators. According to the new interpretation Hitler invaded Poland, not for this Lebensraum BS, but to restore the pre-Versailles situation, meaning Danzig back to the Reich and a corridor. This was the only way for him to achieve this goal.

Hitler was never interested in Poland, another Anglo lie. He was a racialist nationalist, remember. He wanted to unite all Germans in one state. Heim ins Reich. These somewhat inferior Poles would only walk in the way, in his opinion.

In summary: I learned a lot tonight. Nice content for my blog. I wonder if my opponents will recover from this blow.

De wijn smaakte weer lekker vanavond, zoals Theo zaliger zou zeggen.
 
Last edited:
9/11-investigator said:
10) Likewise 35 divisions were dissolved
Click to expand...

What? What 35 divisions were dissolved? I have the German order of battle in front of me. The divisions were doubled in number by reducing each division's motorised brigades from 2 to 1 to allow for expansion after the French campaign. This is basic history.
 
9/11-investigator said:
The WW1-allies had imposed a Carthaginian peace on Germany in 1918.
Click to expand...
Hmm, tell all about those raiding parties that neighbours instituted on poor Germany during the interbellum. Maybe you should learn what a Carthaginian peace is. You could also read up on how the Reichswehr evaded the restrictions imposed upon it.

9/11-investigator said:
Hitler was never interested in Poland, another Anglo lie. He was a racialist nationalist, remember. He wanted to unite all Germans in one state. Heim ins Reich. These somewhat inferior Poles would only walk in the way, in his opinion.
Click to expand...
He told Dahlerus on September 26 that "Poland would not rise again". He suggested secret talks between England and Germany in the Netherlands. So that is what the Venlo incident was about? ;)

Shirer also noted that his Reichstag speech sounded like an old grammophone - Hitler had promised umpteen times that this was really, really, REALLY, the last conquest.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
What? What 35 divisions were dissolved? I have the German order of battle in front of me. The divisions were doubled in number by reducing each division's motorised brigades from 2 to 1 to allow for expansion after the French campaign. This is basic history.
Click to expand...

Do you as a tax harvester really want to argue about the number of divisions with a General-Major of the Bundeswehr?
 
ddt said:
He told Dahlerus on September 26 that "Poland would not rise again". He suggested secret talks between England and Germany in the Netherlands. So that is what the Venlo incident was about? ;)

Shirer also noted that his Reichstag speech sounded like an old grammophone - Hitler had promised umpteen times that this was really, really, REALLY, the last conquest.
Click to expand...

ddt tries to joke his way out of this mess (mess for him).

So what was the meaning of the invasion of Poland, ddt, after what we learned tonight:

Lebensraum or Versailles rollback?
 
Last edited:
9/11-investigator said:
ddt tries to joke his way out of this mess (mess for him).

So what was the meaning of the invasion of Poland, ddt, after what we learned tonight:

Lebensraum or Versailles rollback?
Click to expand...

What we learned? We learned you have a very distorted idea of history. Such as thinking the two points you mention were mutually exclusive.
 
Gawdzilla said:
What we learned? We learned you have a very distorted idea of history. Such as thinking the two points you mention were mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...

They are mutually exclusive.

In the Lebensraum version Poland would be incorporated into the Reich and seize to exist.
In the Versailles rollback version some form of Poland would continue to exist.

You cannot have it both ways.

Not that difficult.
 
Last edited:
9/11-investigator said:
ddt tries to joke his way out of this mess (mess for him).
Click to expand...
What mess? So what did Hitler's "peace offer" entail? You haven't specified.

9/11-investigator said:
So what was the meaning of the invasion of Poland, ddt, after what we learned tonight:

Lebensraum or Versailles rollback?
Click to expand...
How did Hitler himself explain it to his officers in a conference in the Reichskanzlei, 23 May 1939? :rolleyes:
 
9/11-investigator said:
They are mutually exclusive.

In the Lebensraum version Poland would be incorporated into the Reich and seize to exist.
In the Versailles rollback version some form of Poland would continue to exist.

You cannot have it both ways.

Not that difficult.
Click to expand...

◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ wanted to nullify the Versailles Treaty. He ALSO wanted to kick the Slavs out of all that lovely fertile land they were squatting on. You can have it both ways, if you have the grey matter to think. Please post some nonsense in response to this post. As usual.
 
9/11-investigator said:
Nobody threatened the 'gains' Germany had made in Poland.
So why did he offer a withdrawal from Poland?
Answer: he was not interested in Poland but wanted Danzig and the corridor in exchange for peace.
Click to expand...

So why did Hitler say in an address to Germany that Poland no longer existed, so it was pointless for Britain and France to fight?

Why did Hitler institute a plan to roust non-Germans from their homes in Poland and relocate them?

Interesting question: can somebody confirm or refute that Hitler had indeed made this peace offer to France and Britain as the General-Major claims?
Click to expand...

There is plenty of evidence that any peace overtures made by Hitler at this point were simply stalling tactics. For instance, a sixteen-point peace proposal was made to the British envoy a day before the invasion began*, but the list was read quickly, in German, and the envoy was refused a copy. Later, the German people were told that this extremely reasonable proposal had formerly been proffered to their adversaries. In fact, it is clear that the Nazis were not serious about peace.


*The offer was made again, after the invasion had begun. Of course, Germany would have preferred for Britian and France to stand down at this point, but Hitler was already in Poland and clearly had no intention of honoring his agreements.
 
9/11-investigator said:
We all know that the British were looking for war and declined the reasonable offer Hitler had made.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that if the British really wanted war, they would want to win the war. If they wanted the win the war, they would have struck decisively when Germany was at its most vulnerable. They didn't.

Are you familiar with the term Sitzkrieg? This is what the Germans called the western response to the Polish invasion in the early days. Technically, they were at war with the powers to the west, but...neither Britian nor France was actually doing anything.

If they really wanted war, they had a golden opportunity to march into Germany and take Berlin while its troops were engaged in Poland. Britian's navy could blockade any sea routes and the RAF could have wreaked havoc by air, while France's superior manpower could overwhelm the German defenses.

Hitler and his aids were deeply concerned about this, and rightly so, in the early days of the war. Fortunately for the Nazis, the allies didn't pull the trigger. France didn't have the stomach for a fight and instead sat back and waited for the Germans to come to them.
 
9/11-investigator said:
Do you as a tax harvester really want to argue about the number of divisions with a General-Major of the Bundeswehr?
Click to expand...

No as I have an original copy of F.M. von Senger und Etterlin's divisional histories from the war and his son Freddy, who was commander of NATO's Allied Forces Central Europe, is a Bundeswehr historian whose book Die Deutschen Panzer 1926 - 1945 is the bible. Not only do I know all the divisions in detail and their expansion but I know when they got their equipment, refitted and losses for each month.

I know you don't read evidence but can you name any of these 35 divisions that were dissolved? Here is a list for you to check real history and inform me which ones were dissolved. ( Only two Hiwi SS divisions were dissolved when they ran. It may be that the confusion going on here is confusing the change of "infantry' to "motorised divisions" with the introduction of the Sdkfz 251 APC by Germany into divisions after France)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_divisions_in_World_War_II
 
Last edited:
9/11-investigator said:
This was the reason why Hitler attacked the USSR: to prevent being overrun by Stalin, it was the flight forward. It had nothing to do with acquiring 'Lebensraum'.
Click to expand...

This is the funniest thing I've read for a while! Thanks!

You seriously expect anyone to believe that the same Russian army that had gotten its butt kicked by FINLAND was going to somehow "overrun" Germany?

REALLY?

You need to find a more reliable source for your information.
 
aggle-rithm said:
You seriously expect anyone to believe that the same Russian army that had gotten its butt kicked by FINLAND was going to somehow "overrun" Germany?
Click to expand...


In fairness, the Russians did hand the Japanese a pretty good beating in the east in 1939. Enough of one for the Japanese to not be interested in tangling with the Russians again.

Of course, these were two entirely different campaigns with two entirely different scenarios, and, of course, two very different outcomes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom