Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Alt+F4]

9) Dont forget the transit guy that has Knox/Sollecito on the court until after Midnight. Which means Knox/Sollecito couldn't have killed kercher between 10:30 and after midnight since the lights where not on, no activity was observed and they where on the court being watched by an eyewitness.

I'm not familar with this. Do you mean the basketball court? It's my understanding that Knox and Sollecito said they were in his apartment from 9pm until about 11am and never left in between.

10) Why isn't the girl that walked her home a suspect. After all, she admits to being with Kercher alone during the ToD window. Plus she claims to have only walked her half way home. Why did she only walk her half way home? Did they even bother to verify that? Whyt no DNA samples where taken from her? How is Knox/Sollecito helping Guede to rape/murder Kercher plausible and the girl that walked her half way home not plausible?

Do you mean her British friend? (Robin?) I believe all the British friends had airtight alibis.

 

[katy_did]

8) The testimony of the people whose car broke down outside the girls' house, who testified collectively that there was no sound or light within the girls' house for the entire duration of their wait to be towed away - between 10.30pm and 11.15pm - and neither did anybody enter or leave the house during that period.

According to the defence it's supposed to have been a bit later - they claim Massei only took into account the break-down driver's testimony, who said he left between 23.15-23.20, and ignored statements from the people outside the cottage who say they were there till 23.30. So in total they would have been there from 22.30-23.30.

 

[Alt+F4]

The testimony of her friend Robyn and video evidence from the car park camera shows that Meredith arrived home a few minutes after 9 PM. My contention is that Rudy had already broken in and was probably sitting on the toilet when Meredith got home. The defecation that he didn't flush is a clue that his toilet routine was interrupted.

Ok, let's assume Meredith gets home at 9:03 and is confronted by Rudy at 9:04 after he jumps off the toilet, pulls up his pants and runs into the other room.

Meredith's phone shows an attempt to call home at 8:56 PM, just after she left Robyn, but before she arrived home. The call was registered in her cell phone's memory, but the phone did not connect to a cell tower. It's logical to assume that Meredith would try to call her mother again. The fact that she did not indicates she wasn't home for long before she was attacked.

Real life isn't like the movies. Fights don't last all that long, especially when one of the fighters goes for the throat with a knife. If Meredith was attacked right after she came home, the fatal wound was delivered before 9:15 PM. Many of the things on your list had already happened before that time.

Ok, let's assume the attack started at 9:04. You have to weigh in the time for getting her pants off, for the sexual assult and then the stabbing. Sorry, but 9 minutes doesn't seem long enough for someone like Rudy who was not experienced in sexual assult and murder. However, I do believe it could have been done by three people in 9-10 minutes.

I would also suggest acting out a few of the things on your list and timing them with a watch. For example, walking to a bathroom that is only a few feet away only takes seconds. Sliding an incapacitated victim a few feet is also a matter of seconds. Looking in a purse and a drawer for valuables and pocketing the cash, credit cards and keys you find only takes a minute or two.

Remember when they did that in "10 Angry Men"? The jurors discovered that the witness in question couldn't have done all the things he said he did because there wasn't enough time.

You left a lot of things out.

The timing for Rudy as a lone attacker works just fine. Meredith is dead, Rudy has left and the cottage is dark and quiet by 10:30 PM when the car broke down across the street.

Everything had to be done by 10:00, not 10:30.

 

[katy_did]

The testimony of her friend Robyn and video evidence from the car park camera shows that Meredith arrived home a few minutes after 9 PM. My contention is that Rudy had already broken in and was probably sitting on the toilet when Meredith got home. The defecation that he didn't flush is a clue that his toilet routine was interrupted.

Meredith's phone shows an attempt to call home at 8:56 PM, just after she left Robyn, but before she arrived home. The call was registered in her cell phone's memory, but the phone did not connect to a cell tower. It's logical to assume that Meredith would try to call her mother again. The fact that she did not indicates she wasn't home for long before she was attacked.

Something I've wondered for a while is what the exact time stamp on the car park video was. On the clip the prosecution showed in court, did they include a time stamp? Was a time mentioned at all in court, and if so, what was the source for that?

The early reports about that footage (from 12 Nov '07), when the woman was claimed to be Amanda, have the time as 20.43. The first mention by the police of the CCTV being 10 minutes fast wasn't till nearly a year later, October '08 (in connection with the postal police arrival, unsurprisingly since they needed it to be 10 minutes fast for their claims about the 112 call to work!). So the question is, did they decide the CCTV had to be 10 minutes fast before 12 November '07 and adjust the time, or did they just assume the time was accurate at that stage?

That seems quite important, since if the timestamp on the CCTV was 20.43 then it means Meredith got back at 20.54-20.55, immediately before the interrupted phone call. That would mean Sophie was 5 minutes or so out on her estimate of when she got home, but that doesn't seem particularly unlikely. The fact Meredith didn't try to make the call again means it's significant either way, obviously, but still, it's weird that something so important (since if the woman on the CCTV was Meredith, it would give a very accurate estimate of the time she got home) seems so difficult to pin down.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the attack may have been fast

Your argument is that the time of death was between 9:00 and 9:30. Even if he attacked her the second she walked in the door she would not have been dead by 9:30. She bled to death slowly after being sexually assulted stabbed. The Rudy acting alone theory has to contain a significant amount of time for a struggle. Meredith didn't just stand there and do nothing.

I remember another post where someone said there was actually little signs of a struggle, so it's either one of two things. He murdered her alone and there was a long struggle making it very unlikey he could have dumped the phones by 10:13 or there was little stuggle because there were three killers, with a small struggle a 10:13 dump of the phones was possible.

Alt+F4,

The attack may have been over quickly

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008/10/assailant-was-one-and-only-one.html

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/07/professor-carlo-torre-confirms.html

 

[LondonJohn]

Your argument is that the time of death was between 9:00 and 9:30. Even if he attacked her the second she walked in the door she would not have been dead by 9:30. She bled to death slowly after being sexually assulted stabbed. The Rudy acting alone theory has to contain a significant amount of time for a struggle. Meredith didn't just stand there and do nothing.

Why does an attack by a single assailant have to involve a long, violent struggle? Many people (men or women, strong or weak) would acquiesce if they were backed against a wall with a knife which was subsequently placed at their throat. It also takes less time than you are probably imagining to bleed to death from the types of neck wounds that were inflicted upon Meredith. Plus, see my earlier post about hypovlaemia/exsanguination, and its effects on gastro-intestinal function.

I remember another post where someone said there was actually little signs of a struggle, so it's either one of two things. He murdered her alone and there was a long struggle making it very unlikey he could have dumped the phones by 10:13 or there was little stuggle because there were three killers, with a small struggle a 10:13 dump of the phones was possible.

As before, why couldn't there be the third option of a lone assailant and little/no struggle?

If he used the toilet before Meredith came home, why not flush it? He didn't seem to be very worried about being detected, after all, the theory is that he threw a big rock through a window. So flushing a toliet was thing he was afraid was gonna get him caugh? Come on now...

Come on now? You've got yourself very confused at this point. The contention is that Meredith arrived home while he was sitting on the toilet, before he had flushed. So once someone was in the house, there was naturally a compelling reason for him to remain silent and try to make a quick exit without being discovered.

And your logic is going haywire with the rock stuff. The contention is that he would have cased the house for some while to satisfy himself that it was empty (maybe he even knocked on the door, to check that nobody would answer it), before throwing the rock. So when the rock throwing and entry took place, he could be pretty sure the house was empty.

So Rudy tried the door at 9pm, it was locked so he searches around for a rock, throws it through the window, climbs up the side of the building and into Filomena's room. And you still believe Meredith was dead by 9:30?

Ughhhh you're confused again. When I mentioned Rudy trying the door, it meant he could have been trying it from the inside, trying to get out. Of course, his problem would have been that he couldn't get out via the front door (which he might have expected to be easy), since it's likely that Meredith locked it behind her with her key - thereby making it impossible to exit the house via the front door without unlocking the door with the key.

If he confronted her at her bedroom door that would mean he was in the apartment prior to 9. I thought (but I could be wrong) that he had an alibi for up to 9:15.

You're wrong.

Again, something else that took time.

He did everything else and still had time to fiddle with the phone?

I really don't know where you're getting this whole "no time" idea from. If Guede was already inside the house when Meredith returned at 9pm, then he had an hour in which to confront her, kill her, assault her, clean himself up, move Meredith's body, go through her stuff, and leave. This is far more than enough time.

Since Meredith's phone never conneced with that tower before it's more likely that the phone was almost to it's final destination. How far away is the garden? A ten minute walk maybe (and yes, the person would have to walk to avoid suspecion). That means the person leaving with the phones would have had to leave the apartment no later than 10:05. Considering the fact that Meredith might have entered the apartment as late as 9:15, you're looking at 50 minutes for one person to do everything. I don't think so.

She almost certainly got home very shortly after 9pm. And the phone didn't have to be in its abandoned position in the garden when the incoming MMS was received at 10.13 - it may very well have been somewhere en route between the girls' house and the garden where it was dumped. And, in any case, 50 minutes would still be more than enough time. Why on earth do you think it wouldn't be? Do you think the killer completed the Times crossword before leaving the murder house?

Incidentally, if you're saying that the phone evidence implies that the phones were away from the house by 10.13pm (and I would agree with you on that), then the police case against Knox and Sollecito looks incredibly weak, since it's pretty well agreed that they couldn't have arrived at the girls' house before around 9.30pm at the very earliest - and the prosecution theory entails a significant preamble to the murder itself. Oops

How can you be certain knew the door needed to be locked with a key?

Not 100% certain, but pretty certain based on the type of lockset, the photos of the front door, and the testimony of the other girls in the house.

The person who left with the phones probably left the apartment around 10:00 so the people waiting to be towed wouldn't have seen that person anyway.

If you believe this (as I am also inclined to do), then you must necessarily believe that it's very unlikely indeed that Knox or Sollecito were involved in the murder, for timing reasons.

 

[LondonJohn]

Post # 4023

Here's my post #4023 in its entirety:

"Time of death:

If the autopsy found recognisable pieces of cheese product and vegetable matter in Meredith's stomach, coupled with a lack of chyme matter in the duodenum, then this seems like very compelling evidence placing the time of death before 21.30.

Meredith's friends seem certain that the pizza which they prepared was eaten by Meredith at around 18.00. The physiology of the gastro-intestinal system is extremely well-studied, and it's conclusively known that acid and enzymes break down all solid food matter within the stomach into uniform, semi-liquid chyme within 90 minutes and 3 hours of ingestion - given an average-sized meal and a healthy adult. The chyme then passes out of the stomach, through the duodenum, and into the small intestine.

So, if one generously assumes that Meredith ate her last mouthful of pizza at 18.30, and that she was relatively sedentary in the period following her meal (they were watching a movie) - which aids the digestive process - then one can assume that the last remaining food pieces would have been converted to chyme by 21.30 at the latest. This chyme would have passed into the duodenum, and then into the small intestine.

I would find it astonishing if the defence couldn't find a well-renowned gastro-intestinal specialist to discuss the implications of the autopsy findings. My knowledge of the subject (which is more than that of many lay people, but of course far short of expert) would lead me to believe that the state of the stomach contents (and absence of duodenal contents) are only compatible with a time of death of 21.00-21.30. Furthermore, they are (in my unqualified opinion) completely incompatible with a time of death of even 22.30 - let alone 23.00 or 23.20."

Ermmmm....I'd be very grateful if you could point out to me where I stated that Meredith was dead at 9pm? If you read what I said properly, you will see that I stated that the autopsy findings appear to put the time of death at between 9pm and 9.30pm. This is totally different to what you're saying, and makes me shake my head somewhat in amazement at your powers of logical deduction.

 

[LondonJohn]

Something I've wondered for a while is what the exact time stamp on the car park video was. On the clip the prosecution showed in court, did they include a time stamp? Was a time mentioned at all in court, and if so, what was the source for that?

The early reports about that footage (from 12 Nov '07), when the woman was claimed to be Amanda, have the time as 20.43. The first mention by the police of the CCTV being 10 minutes fast wasn't till nearly a year later, October '08 (in connection with the postal police arrival, unsurprisingly since they needed it to be 10 minutes fast for their claims about the 112 call to work!). So the question is, did they decide the CCTV had to be 10 minutes fast before 12 November '07 and adjust the time, or did they just assume the time was accurate at that stage?

That seems quite important, since if the timestamp on the CCTV was 20.43 then it means Meredith got back at 20.54-20.55, immediately before the interrupted phone call. That would mean Sophie was 5 minutes or so out on her estimate of when she got home, but that doesn't seem particularly unlikely. The fact Meredith didn't try to make the call again means it's significant either way, obviously, but still, it's weird that something so important (since if the woman on the CCTV was Meredith, it would give a very accurate estimate of the time she got home) seems so difficult to pin down.

Very, very good point. This would tie in with my belief that Meredith's aborted call home to her parents in the UK might have been initiated by her once she had actually got inside the house - possible as she went to her bedroom to relax and chat with her parents before some reading and an early night. I suspect that, if this is what happened, the call was terminated before it even had a chance to connect, either because Meredith heard a noise inside the house (Guede trying to escape) and stopped the call in order to investigate, or because Guede confronted her and forced her to terminate the call.

Suddenly, this part of the puzzle might start to make a little more sense.......

 

[Matthew Best]

Since Meredith's phone never conneced with that tower before it's more likely that the phone was almost to it's final destination.

Please show your working in coming to this conclusion as I am at a loss as to how you managed it.

 

[LondonJohn]

Spotted something within 5 minutes of browsing through the (very difficult to read) Massei report translation:

On page 365 of the translation, Massei's version of the crime has Knox and Sollecito arriving at the girls' house at "slightly after 23.00pm" on the 1st November.

But isn't this in direct conflict with the people who were broken down opposite the house between 22.30 and 23.15 (or even 23.30), and who stated that they saw nobody enter or leave the house during the whole time they were there? Is Massei either overlooking their testimony or concluding that they are mistaken?

 

[Alt+F4]

Why does an attack by a single assailant have to involve a long, violent struggle? Many people (men or women, strong or weak) would acquiesce if they were backed against a wall with a knife which was subsequently placed at their throat.

Meredith's sister said:

When asked if Meredith would have fought for her life, Stephanie said: "110 per cent yes. She would have defended herself. Physically she was very strong and she would have fought to the end."

Are you saying she is wrong? Why do you think you know more about what Meredith would have done than her own sister?

It also takes less time than you are probably imagining to bleed to death from the types of neck wounds that were inflicted upon Meredith. Plus, see my earlier post about hypovlaemia/exsanguination, and its effects on gastro-intestinal function.

Almost everyone agrees that the attack could not have started any earlier than 9:05. You are wrong when you say the time of death was between 9:00 and 9:30.

As before, why couldn't there be the third option of a lone assailant and little/no struggle?

Again, see above quote from Meredith's sister.

Come on now? You've got yourself very confused at this point.

You put the earliest time of death at five minutes before the attack could have even started and I'm the one that's confused?

The contention is that Meredith arrived home while he was sitting on the toilet, before he had flushed. So once someone was in the house, there was naturally a compelling reason for him to remain silent and try to make a quick exit without being discovered.

Yeah, but instead of trying a quick exit through the window he came in he decides to committ a murder instead.

Ughhhh you're confused again. When I mentioned Rudy trying the door, it meant he could have been trying it from the inside, trying to get out. Of course, his problem would have been that he couldn't get out via the front door (which he might have expected to be easy), since it's likely that Meredith locked it behind her with her key - thereby making it impossible to exit the house via the front door without unlocking the door with the key.

So Rudy is confused when it suites your argument, but the model of efficiency when it comes to the post murder activities. Got it.

I really don't know where you're getting this whole "no time" idea from. If Guede was already inside the house when Meredith returned at 9pm, then he had an hour in which to confront her, kill her, assault her, clean himself up, move Meredith's body, go through her stuff, and leave. This is far more than enough time.

It's that pesky "if" again. Zero evidence that he was already in the apartment when she got home.

She almost certainly got home very shortly after 9pm. And the phone didn't have to be in its abandoned position in the garden when the incoming MMS was received at 10.13 - it may very well have been somewhere en route between the girls' house and the garden where it was dumped.

Much more likely it was much closer to the garden than the apartment. If it was just outside or somewhere near the apartment Meredith's phone would have picked up that tower in a previous call some other time. Meredith was probably just like everyone else - on her phone while walking home.

And, in any case, 50 minutes would still be more than enough time. Why on earth do you think it wouldn't be?

Yes, it would be enough time if three people were involved. I think it's ridiculous to think that that one person could have pulled off the sexual assult and stabbing in just a few minutes.

Incidentally, if you're saying that the phone evidence implies that the phones were away from the house by 10.13pm (and I would agree with you on that), then the police case against Knox and Sollecito looks incredibly weak, since it's pretty well agreed that they couldn't have arrived at the girls' house before around 9.30pm at the very earliest - and the prosecution theory entails a significant preamble to the murder itself. Oops

At trial Amanda testified that it was at 8:15 or 8:30 when she received the text from Patrick telling her she didn't have to work that evening.

Oops.

There was plenty of time for them to do drugs then walk from his apartment to hers. My belief is that then went back to her apartment not to murder Meredith but for her to get a change of clothes for the day trip planned for the next day. Rudy was in the process of murdering Meredith when they arrived, the other two were stoned out of their minds and participated.

If you believe this (as I am also inclined to do), then you must necessarily believe that it's very unlikely indeed that Knox or Sollecito were involved in the murder, for timing reasons.

A timeline of 9:05 to 10:00 points more to three people being involved, not one.

 

[Chris C]

Your argument is that the time of death was between 9:00 and 9:30. Even if he attacked her the second she walked in the door she would not have been dead by 9:30. She bled to death slowly after being sexually assulted stabbed. The Rudy acting alone theory has to contain a significant amount of time for a struggle. Meredith didn't just stand there and do nothing.

I remember another post where someone said there was actually little signs of a struggle, so it's either one of two things. He murdered her alone and there was a long struggle making it very unlikey he could have dumped the phones by 10:13 or there was little stuggle because there were three killers, with a small struggle a 10:13 dump of the phones was possible.



If he used the toilet before Meredith came home, why not flush it? He didn't seem to be very worried about being detected, after all, the theory is that he threw a big rock through a window. So flushing a toliet was thing he was afraid was gonna get him caugh? Come on now...



So Rudy tried the door at 9pm, it was locked so he searches around for a rock, throws it through the window, climbs up the side of the building and into Filomena's room. And you still believe Meredith was dead by 9:30?

If he confronted her at her bedroom door that would mean he was in the apartment prior to 9. I thought (but I could be wrong) that he had an alibi for up to 9:15.



Again, something else that took time.



He did everything else and still had time to fiddle with the phone?



Since Meredith's phone never conneced with that tower before it's more likely that the phone was almost to it's final destination. How far away is the garden? A ten minute walk maybe (and yes, the person would have to walk to avoid suspecion). That means the person leaving with the phones would have had to leave the apartment no later than 10:05. Considering the fact that Meredith might have entered the apartment as late as 9:15, you're looking at 50 minutes for one person to do everything. I don't think so.



How can you be certain knew the door needed to be locked with a key?



The person who left with the phones probably left the apartment around 10:00 so the people waiting to be towed wouldn't have seen that person anyway.

Your getting your alibi's confused. The police say Knox/Sollecito have an alibi up to 9:15. However, computer evidence on 1 of sollecito's computers shows activity on atleast 1 computer until 9:46.
I've never heard mention of Guede having any alibi.

As for a struggle, Meredith had 40+ bruises. She had black hairs in her fingernails consistant with someone from African Origin. Neither knox or sollecito ancestry is from Africa. None of the bruises where on her wrists, which means she wasn't restrained. There where bruises around her mouth to show someone covered her mouth from behind to keep her from screaming. She had two puncture wounds in her neck that could not have been made by the knife the prosecution said killed Meredith. She has a slash across her throat that could have been made my nearly any sharp knife, box cutter, scissors. Therefore the 2 people held her arms out while a 3rd person slashed her throat doesn't fit. The only theory that fits, was she was killed by someone that was from behind her. While he was stabbing her, she grabbed at him with her hands and got some hair.

As for Meredith arriving as late as 9:15. How accurate was the time on the cameras, they said proved it was Meredith. The time was off the next day when the police showed up. I've seen some of those pictures and they are terrible. Did they have a perfect ID?

How can someone that is in the ToD window have a rock solid alibi? Im not saying the girl that walked meredith home did the deed. I'm just saying Knox's alibi is stronger than hers.

Now this theory that it would take 1 person more to subdue Meredith quickly is pure fantasy. A physically fit male of rudy's size should be able to subdue 99.9% of women on Earth regardless of whether they know martial arts or not. It would take at most 1 to 2 minutes. My ex works for the police department and she still gives women self defense classes. What they teach in womens self defense classes is to not fight but to try and temporarily disable your attacker and run for help. Staying and fighting a Male thats attacking you will just lead to the poor women getting beaten, raped, robbed and killed. I have been in more than 20 fights since turning 18. And by fights i mean just fists. No fight I was in with another man lasted more than 2 minutes either way. Do you honestly think a women would fare better? Im not trying to be sexist here. I'm just trying to point out that men have a Colossal advantage when fighting women. This isn't tennis, bowling, or golf.

As for the 30 plus minutes of bleeding out. I used to say that exact same thing, but then someone pointed out where I think it was the coroner said it took like 10 minutes or less for the bleed out.

 

[LondonJohn]

Meredith's sister said:



Are you saying she is wrong? Why do you think you know more about what Meredith would have done than her own sister?



Almost everyone agrees that the attack could not have started any earlier than 9:05. You are wrong when you say the time of death was between 9:00 and 9:30.



Again, see above quote from Meredith's sister.



You put the earliest time of death at five minutes before the attack could have even started and I'm the one that's confused?



Yeah, but instead of trying a quick exit through the window he came in he decides to committ a murder instead.



So Rudy is confused when it suites your argument, but the model of efficiency when it comes to the post murder activities. Got it.



It's that pesky "if" again. Zero evidence that he was already in the apartment when she got home.



Much more likely it was much closer to the garden than the apartment. If it was just outside or somewhere near the apartment Meredith's phone would have picked up that tower in a previous call some other time. Meredith was probably just like everyone else - on her phone while walking home.



Yes, it would be enough time if three people were involved. I think it's ridiculous to think that that one person could have pulled off the sexual assult and stabbing in just a few minutes.



At trial Amanda testified that it was at 8:15 or 8:30 when she received the text from Patrick telling her she didn't have to work that evening.

Oops.

There was plenty of time for them to do drugs then walk from his apartment to hers. My belief is that then went back to her apartment not to murder Meredith but for her to get a change of clothes for the day trip planned for the next day. Rudy was in the process of murdering Meredith when they arrived, the other two were stoned out of their minds and participated.



A timeline of 9:05 to 10:00 points more to three people being involved, not one.

If you're going to pull incorrect "facts" out of thin air, and add in things which are completely tangential in order to try to bolster your case, I really can't be bothered debating with you any more. It's clearly more important for you to be "right" than it is to examine any position from an intellectual perspective. And I don't share that psychology, so I can't be bothered constantly explaining myself or correcting your factual errors. You'd do beautifully over on PMF though, if you can fix the reading problem - you're right in their demographic......

 

[LondonJohn]

Your getting your alibi's confused. The police say Knox/Sollecito have an alibi up to 9:15. However, computer evidence on 1 of sollecito's computers shows activity on atleast 1 computer until 9:46.
I've never heard mention of Guede having any alibi.

As for a struggle, Meredith had 40+ bruises. She had black hairs in her fingernails consistant with someone from African Origin. Neither knox or sollecito ancestry is from Africa. None of the bruises where on her wrists, which means she wasn't restrained. There where bruises around her mouth to show someone covered her mouth from behind to keep her from screaming. She had two puncture wounds in her neck that could not have been made by the knife the prosecution said killed Meredith. She has a slash across her throat that could have been made my nearly any sharp knife, box cutter, scissors. Therefore the 2 people held her arms out while a 3rd person slashed her throat doesn't fit. The only theory that fits, was she was killed by someone that was from behind her. While he was stabbing her, she grabbed at him with her hands and got some hair.

As for Meredith arriving as late as 9:15. How accurate was the time on the cameras, they said proved it was Meredith. The time was off the next day when the police showed up. I've seen some of those pictures and they are terrible. Did they have a perfect ID?

How can someone that is in the ToD window have a rock solid alibi? Im not saying the girl that walked meredith home did the deed. I'm just saying Knox's alibi is stronger than hers.

Now this theory that it would take 1 person more to subdue Meredith quickly is pure fantasy. A physically fit male of rudy's size should be able to subdue 99.9% of women on Earth regardless of whether they know martial arts or not. It would take at most 1 to 2 minutes. My ex works for the police department and she still gives women self defense classes. What they teach in womens self defense classes is to not fight but to try and temporarily disable your attacker and run for help. Staying and fighting a Male thats attacking you will just lead to the poor women getting beaten, raped, robbed and killed. I have been in more than 20 fights since turning 18. And by fights i mean just fists. No fight I was in with another man lasted more than 2 minutes either way. Do you honestly think a women would fare better? Im not trying to be sexist here. I'm just trying to point out that men have a Colossal advantage when fighting women. This isn't tennis, bowling, or golf.

As for the 30 plus minutes of bleeding out. I used to say that exact same thing, but then someone pointed out where I think it was the coroner said it took like 10 minutes or less for the bleed out.

As you say, it's totally reasonable to suggest that Guede might have been able to threaten Meredith with a knife, to manoeuvre her onto her knees, and then to stab her through the neck - possibly as she made some initial movement of resistance. I note that Massei convinces himself that Meredith must have been attacked by multiple assailants, since Meredith was "fit and strong". This is arrant nonsense, and completely without foundation.

If Guede had moved towards Meredith saying "I'm going to rape and kill you now", then of course she would have fought hard for her life. But she would have had no idea what her fate was going to be - she probably would have thought that Guede was going to rob her at knifepoint, and possibly sexually assault her as well. But neither of these things, as horrible as they are, are worth risking struggling against a man with a knife.

The BTK killer (Dennis Rayder) in Wichita, Kansas, used the same psychological trick to tie up whole families. They would agree to being tied up, since they thought that Rayder was only going to rob them, or at worst sexually assault the women. Of course, once they were tied up, Rayder could do what he wanted with them, involving torture and culminating in their deaths. Had Rayder announced that he wanted to tie them up as a precursor to torturing and killing them, they would have immediately fought back, and in many cases would have probably overpowered him.

Oh and you're also correct about the "bleeding out" part - although I think most pathologists would put brain stem death (the ultimate indicator of total death) at around 15-25 minutes after these sorts of neck wounds. Note, however, that the body progressively shuts down, starting within seconds of the wound being inflicted. Motor functions shut down very fast, and the person becomes semi-conscious within 2-3 minutes, sliding into full unconsciousness probably within 5 minutes. Breathing becomes shallow, and respiratory function stops within 10-15 minutes. Low blood pressure then triggers an extreme shock reaction, which places the brain in a deep vegetative state and makes the heart stop pumping. The lack of oxygenated blood to the brain causes death at the brain stem within a further 5-10 minutes.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Even if you believe there was only one person involved (Guede) what your saying is between 9:15 and 10:15 he: broke into the apartment, sexually assulted Meredith, murdered Meredith after what was a significant struggle, undress her, got towels from the bathroom, took off his shoes, put on his shoes, took the lamp from Amanda's room, used the toilet (long enough in the batroom to use his iPod), moved the body, cleaned up in the bathroom, took Meredith's key, phones, locked her door without turning around, locked the front door and was already halfway to the place the phones were dumped.

Am I missing anything?

Add all that up and it's still a list that could easily be completed in an hour. Believe it or not on some mornings I get up, find a towel, use the toilet, have a shower, pick out clothes, get dressed, make coffee, make breakfast, drink the coffee, eat the breakfast, check my email, pack a bag, put my shoes on, leave, lock the front door and head out to work all in an hour.

Do you find my claim incredible?

Your argument is that the time of death was between 9:00 and 9:30. Even if he attacked her the second she walked in the door she would not have been dead by 9:30. She bled to death slowly after being sexually assulted stabbed. The Rudy acting alone theory has to contain a significant amount of time for a struggle. Meredith didn't just stand there and do nothing.

I remember another post where someone said there was actually little signs of a struggle, so it's either one of two things. He murdered her alone and there was a long struggle making it very unlikey he could have dumped the phones by 10:13 or there was little stuggle because there were three killers, with a small struggle a 10:13 dump of the phones was possible.

For an untrained person wrestling a larger, stronger opponent, based on my experience at judo and Brazilian jujitsu, even a minute is a very long struggle. If you are not very fit and don't know what you are doing you run out of gas frighteningly quickly. The struggle doesn't necessarily take much time at all.

Ok, let's assume the attack started at 9:04. You have to weigh in the time for getting her pants off, for the sexual assult and then the stabbing. Sorry, but 9 minutes doesn't seem long enough for someone like Rudy who was not experienced in sexual assult and murder. However, I do believe it could have been done by three people in 9-10 minutes.

I'd say it could have been done by one person in a minute or two, easily, but even if it took ten minutes it doesn't render the rest of the timeline anything like impossible.

Meredith's sister said:

Are you saying she is wrong? Why do you think you know more about what Meredith would have done than her own sister?

Since when is her sister an expert on what Meredith would actually do in a life-or-death situation? People do all sorts of weird things in life-or-death situations ranging from fighting on for some time with what should be fatal wounds to being paralysed with fear and not resisting at all. Plus in any case, as I said earlier, there's still plenty of time for Guede to finish everything else on your list even if the struggle lasted an improbably long time.

Yes, it would be enough time if three people were involved. I think it's ridiculous to think that that one person could have pulled off the sexual assult and stabbing in just a few minutes.

You're just wrong, and you shouldn't make these sorts of things up if you have no relevant knowledge or evidence.

There was plenty of time for them to do drugs then walk from his apartment to hers. My belief is that then went back to her apartment not to murder Meredith but for her to get a change of clothes for the day trip planned for the next day. Rudy was in the process of murdering Meredith when they arrived, the other two were stoned out of their minds and participated.

Say what? Has anything like that ever happened in the known history of the world? What drugs exactly do you think have that effect on people, and do you have any evidence that AK and RS were on such drugs?

As theories go this is arguably even more bizarre than the Halloween Ritual theory and the Rape Game Gone Wild theory.

 

[Malkmus]

Are you saying she is wrong? Why do you think you know more about what Meredith would have done than her own sister?

People train for all kinds of emergencies in a multitude of scenarios. It doesn't make it a fact that when finally confronted they will for certain remember what to do or have the courage to do it. How many people train for skydiving then get cold feet when standing at the open hatch, looking several thousand feet down to the ground. It makes perfect sense that Meredith was told she would live if she didn't fight him, and that she did exactly that.

My belief is that then went back to her apartment not to murder Meredith but for her to get a change of clothes for the day trip planned for the next day. Rudy was in the process of murdering Meredith when they arrived, the other two were stoned out of their minds and participated.

This is an even more improbable scenario than what the prosecution cooked up. You actually think that happened? I mean really envision that scenario in your head!

 

[Malkmus]

So Rudy is confused when it suites your argument, but the model of efficiency when it comes to the post murder activities. Got it.

Please cite where anyone has ever implied Rudy was "the model of efficiency". You might be thinking of PMF where he is regarded as a martyr on the path to becoming a saint.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Also, Alt+F4, you've only expressed incredulity about timelines where Meredith is killed shortly after 9pm and Rudy leaves the building around 10pm.

You have not identified any hard evidence that indicates a later time of death that might be taken to contradict the autopsy evidence. If you are adamant that Rudy needed helpers to get everything done in an hour, that doesn't magically make Knox and Sollecito his helpers. In fact if those two were provably over at Sollecito's house on the computer at the time, that just means that Rudy's helper(s) had to be other people, right?

 

[Mary_H]

Why is there even a need for an appeal Chris? If all this is so obvious how come none of these arguments were made in court by the defense lawyers or experts, and if they, were how come they were not at all convincing? I don't get why bloggers on internet forums can find all the answers yet all the high paid experts and legal eagles couldn't. A stronger case should have and could have been made in the first place if indeed all the evidence has such simple refutations.
Today or tomorrow, hopefully we can read the english version of the motivations, thanks to the tireless efforts of some incredible posters on PMF, and see for ourselves why these arguments failed or if they were even made at all.
Do you think Amanda and Raffaele had sub-standard representation and expert testimony? If they are innocent, I suggest they did.

These questions deserve answers. I wish we had more Italian natives or cultural historians on the blogs, who could give this subject matter more attention, without being labeled racist.

More than enough qualified international authorities and intelligent examiners of the evidence have demonstrated many times over that there is no case against Amanda and Raffaele. We all could have stopped discussing many of these minute points of evidence a year ago; the truth about practically all the facts has been known at least since then. As some people have accurately stated, the prosecution lost its case, but the defendants were convicted anyway. As Danceme suggests, the questions boil down to how this could have happened.

Kevin wrote: "Because courts, including Italian courts, get things wrong sometimes. That is simply a fact. It is not up for debate. That is why they have an appeals process at all, you see. If courts were infallible there would be no need for appeals.

(Also if you'd read the thread thoroughly you'd have seen that AK and RS's original defence teams have already been the subject of serious criticism here)."

To that we can add the well known anecdotal evidence that the judges and the jury panel slept and took cellphone calls during the defense's presentations.

The most powerful contributors to the wrongful verdict, in my opinion, appear to be the three-trial system and the inordinate power accorded to the prosecutors.

Judging from what we have heard and read about the large number of verdicts that are modified, if not overturned, we can conclude it is expected that cases will not be tried and resolved in one effort. This implicit expectation is what leads to behavior such as inattentive judges. If the magistrates and the lawyers assume they can take two or three trials to close a case, they are less likely to try to close it in one, partly because there is a strong financial incentive for taking their time. This expectation, in turn, feeds into the system of developing relatively comfortable prisons -- if the prisons were third-world quality, there would be more international protests and the system would have to change.

Regarding the power of the prosecutors, we have seen so little resistance in Perugia to Mignini's direction of the investigation and his prosecution of the suspects that we are led to suspect there is a taboo against defying the prosecutor, at least in the initial phases of a case. It is impossible to believe there is no one in Perugia who disagrees with Mignini, but few voices have been heard. Even the defense lawyers are so polite as to state that Amanda's trial was fair. There is a lot of subterranean cultural agreement going on in Perugia (and everywhere) that would be better understood with more analysis.

Amanda didn't have substandard representation or less-than-expert testimony. All of the Italian players simply went into the trial believing the outcome was predestined.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Ok, let's assume the attack started at 9:04. You have to weigh in the time for getting her pants off, for the sexual assult and then the stabbing. Sorry, but 9 minutes doesn't seem long enough for someone like Rudy who was not experienced in sexual assult and murder. However, I do believe it could have been done by three people in 9-10 minutes.

The stabbing preceded the removal of her pants and the sexual assault.

The bloodstains show what happened. He cornered her in her room, threw her to the floor, and stabbed her in the throat while she was on all fours in front of her wardrobe. After she was unconscious or dead, he dragged her body several feet, put a pillow under her buttocks, and removed most of her clothing. We don't know exactly what he did sexually, but his DNA was found inside her vagina, and everything else about the crime scene suggests a sexually motivated homicide.

This all transpired over a time frame that was more than 10 minutes, but probably not much more than half an hour. At some point, he cleaned up in the bathroom, and then he went back into her room. Before he left, he removed the quilt from the bed and spread it over her body. He probably sat on the edge of the bed, with the bloody knife at his side, while he went through her purse. He tossed a receipt from a movie theater onto the quilt covering her body. He left the purse next to the knife-blade imprint on the bed. He also left a towel spattered with blood at the foot of the bed. And he left a trail of bloody shoe prints that start in the room and proceed down the corridor toward the exit.