The "Nakba" Myth

[Thunder]

More than a few Germans were hanged at Nuremberg for settling their citizens in occupied Poland. The US does not do anything about it because so many of those criminals in the West Bank squattertowns have Brooklyn accents. And most of the rest have Russian accents so support from there either.

40% of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern/North African descent.

And a great majority of Israeli Jews, were BORN in Israel.

The vasy minority of settlers in the West Bank, are of Russian descent. Get your facts straight.

Your lies have no power here.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Does the zionist propaganda never cease? I had been informed JREF was a rational and informed forum. I am surprised to discover otherwise.

The CT part of the forum is that way --->

Israel has made no peace offers which anyone other than a rabid zionist could find other than laughable. Israel has never offered a single thing which would lead to peace meaning something which would compensate the victims of the crimes of 1948 and 1967. If I am in error you are free to recite what Israel did in fact offer.

Burden of proof lies on your end. There's plenty of threads that address this topic in detail, but you have made it your mission to derail this thread with a sort of shock-and-awe tactic of throwing everything on the table in 1 thread.

Compensation for the Palestinian losses? Only after Jews are compensated for their losses when they left Iraq and Egypt and such even though Israel was behind driving them out AND there is no connection between the two.

Iraq and Egypt didn't compensate the Jews that were evicted by these states for loss of property and the those Arabs countries that absorbed the bank accounts of the Jews evicted.

Since 2002 there has been an Arab league proposal on the table which 48 Muslim countries have agreed to. All of them have agreed to recognize Israel and establish normal relations if Israel will return to its only recognized borders, those of 1948. Israel has NEVER formally considered it. Israel pretends that it does not exist. Because of that you cannot tell me what Israel "really" thinks of it because there is no official Israeli position on it.

Voided armistice lines are just that, voided. They were de facto borders since there was never a mutual agreement except with Jordan and Egypt.

More than a few Germans were hanged at Nuremberg for settling their citizens in occupied Poland. The US does not do anything about it because so many of those criminals in the West Bank squattertowns have Brooklyn accents. And most of the rest have Russian accents so support from there either.

And those Palestinians living in Canada, US, Ireland, UK, Netherlands, etc. don't have respective accents? Lived amongst quite a few in Canada that spoke in Canadian accents having been born overseas. So irrelevant.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Herodotus never travelled to Egypt, Syria and the surrounding area, and actually relied on 2nd hand accounts to make his assessments.

No one in his time questioned his travels. But even if 2nd hand accounts they are still of Palestine not Philistia. Besides please tell me why the local people would use the PH of Greek for the F sound.

And the term he refers to is not 'Palestine', but a derivation of Philistine

The problem is Philistines appear only in the clearly fictional work of the Septuagint which cannot be traced to older than the 2nd c. BC. Religious tradition that it is older than that is nothing more than a religious tradition and as such has no merit in a rational discussion.

as define the area between Egypt and Phoenicia as 'Syria Palaistina'. This assertion was just as erroneous as the recent archeological find in Syria dating back to the period of the Philistines playing the same word play game with 'Palestine' apparently existing in Syria and Turkey:
'Palestine existed in Syria, Turkey'

The Jerusalem Post. Yes anyone who gets their archaeological and historical information from journalism majors who have a dog in the fight deserves what they learn. Pardon if I do not take journalism majors seriously. I hope you will forgive me.

Additionally, Herodotus (Herodotus, III – 91, p. 181) clearly defined his designation of the areas as having 3 distinct groups of people: Palestinians, the Phoenicians, and the Arabians. Modern Palestinian Arabs are just that, Arab. The derivation of the origin term adopted by the Arabs is nothing more than a designation for the region and doesn't have anything to do with Arabs (South Semitic) that settled there substantially later after the Indo-Europeans.

And as we know from the Ptolemy maps there were three "Arabias" Felix, Petra and Deserta. That Herodotus did not live long enough to use the later official names does not excuse deliberately confounding the modern designation of Arabia as in Saudi as in Deserta with ancient meanings clearly shown on the map.

All Arabia is divided into three parts .. Now we know where Julius Caesar got the line.

How can he when he's never been there?

If you have a reference to his contemporaries questioning his travels such as noting he never left Greece I would be most interested in it. But in claiming second hand you are then saying that people who were more than just tourists were his sources. That makes it more credible not less.

Since all the previous claims above of yours are superficial fiction, what is your intention here anyways? That Judeans, Israelites, and/or Jews didn't exist or have a lengthy history in the area. This is all being supported by physical evidence. But don't let get in the way....

I simply observe archaeology has shuckscanned the entire narrative in the Septuagint as being fanciful in the same sense a Oz and Wonderland and Never Never Land are fanciful creations.

Of course if you can refer to physical evidence for the existence of an Israel as described in the bible you will be the first. You should do it in a professional publication rather than here so you get credit for being the first.

So all other history books that trace the connections between the Philistines and the Mycenaeans are also swept under the rug here...

I am interested in the actual ancient references which make such a connection. I have been at this for nearly two decades and never heard of such a thing. If you do have such a reference please post it.

 

[bigjelmapro]

In this case the zionists only used the threat of extermination on the Palestinians if they did not leave Palestine.

Cite this. You have this tendancy of making far-fetched claims and then trying to get other people to do the leg-work in order to prove you wrong.

This is quite peculiar.

Cease with the constant derailing.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Yes, and I'm sure that these claimants will be waving around land ownership claims dating from the mid-1920's British land reforms, since during the better part of the Ottoman empire, there were barely land owners, but the brunt of the land was owned by the state. The Beer Sheva district being the highest, at 99% state owned.

Don't mind the purchasing of land and the concept of state building which the Arabs made quite easily by the constant wars to destroy Israel. But I guess you'll try to peddle that the Arabs wanted peace from the get-go

Excuse me but I can trace the issue the late 1940s and early 1950s under the color of Israeli law. Israel did in fact acknowledge their ownership of the land. But in those years the basic absent owner law and its refinements were passed. The basic law declared that property owned by an absent owner reverted to the state -- despite the fact that Jews murdered owners who attempted to return often forcing them to dig their own graves.

One of the refinements of the law was to create a class of "present absent" for the land owned by Palestinians who were still in Israel although forced to live in ghettos. If they attempted to return to their property they were shot, i.e. murdered. under the curfew laws which existed until 1956.

So all those owners who were not on their land for a few years even though the penalty for being on one's own property was death had their titles voided and the land became state land deeded to the ILA, the Israel Land Agency, an arm of the the Israeli government as determined by the Israeli Supreme Court.

So from 1948 to 1954 the Palestinian ownership of the land in Israel decreased from 90+% Palestinian to 5% Palestinian.

This is called theft under color of law.

And please stop making such an issue of destroying Israel when destroying Palestine is an applauded Zionist accomplishment. It makes you look like a hypocrite.

 

[Thunder]

So from 1948 to 1954 the Palestinian ownership of the land in Israel decreased from 90+% Palestinian to 5% Palestinian.

The United Nations General Assembly voted to create a Jewish State and an Arab State, out of Palestine. Who owned what percent of the land, really didn't make of a difference to them.

Furthermore, the UN Gen. Assemb. recognized Israel within its current borders in 1949. What say you?

It sounds like you have an issue with Israel and every country on Earth which recognizes their post-1949 borders, which is pretty much everyone.

But I agree, Israel should monetarily compensate folks who had land confiscated.

 

[Matt Giwer]

40% of Israeli Jews are of Middle Eastern/North African descent.

While the Ashkenazis who were the Zionists have no more descent from the middle east than you or me. Although descent has nothing to do with land claims else I can reclaim my castle in Poland.

And a great majority of Israeli Jews, were BORN in Israel.

Actually only 46% of the Jews were born there. They can curse their parents for that not the Palestinians.

The vasy minority of settlers in the West Bank, are of Russian descent. Get your facts straight.

All I know about Israel I get from haaretz.com and jpost.com. Those sources put the Russians as high as 20% Christian or atheist and only Jews based upon the Nazi not the Halalkic definition of who is a Jew.

Your lies have no power here.

You should then take up your complaints with Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post. What I know of Israel I get from impeccably Jewish, Israeli and incredibly biased towards Jews and Israelis sources. I find them the most damning of all as they have to let it all hang out else lose readership.

It was from Israeli sources I first learned six of the dead on the Mava Marmara raid died from close range head shots, i.e. murdered.

 

[Thunder]

In this case the zionists only used the threat of extermination on the Palestinians if they did not leave Palestine.
.

i would like to see evidence that the Haganah threatened mass murder against the Arabs who did not leave Israel.

 

[bigjelmapro]

No one in his time questioned his travels. But even if 2nd hand accounts they are still of Palestine not Philistia. Besides please tell me why the local people would use the PH of Greek for the F sound.

Because he didn't travel there.

The problem is Philistines appear only in the clearly fictional work of the Septuagint which cannot be traced to older than the 2nd c. BC. Religious tradition that it is older than that is nothing more than a religious tradition and as such has no merit in a rational discussion.

So we've established that nothing in religious texts has any historical significance whatsoever. Duly noted.

And not arguing the existence of the distict people called the Philistines but the use of the term and its origins.

The Jerusalem Post. Yes anyone who gets their archaeological and historical information from journalism majors who have a dog in the fight deserves what they learn. Pardon if I do not take journalism majors seriously. I hope you will forgive me.

You still didn't address the issue. Simply label it irrelevant and move on to the next baseless rant.

And as we know from the Ptolemy maps there were three "Arabias" Felix, Petra and Deserta. That Herodotus did not live long enough to use the later official names does not excuse deliberately confounding the modern designation of Arabia as in Saudi as in Deserta with ancient meanings clearly shown on the map.

All Arabia is divided into three parts .. Now we know where Julius Caesar got the line.

Not talking about the changing delinations of maps, merely Herodotus's categorization of 3 distict peoples. Diversion averted.

If you have a reference to his contemporaries questioning his travels such as noting he never left Greece I would be most interested in it. But in claiming second hand you are then saying that people who were more than just tourists were his sources. That makes it more credible not less.

Never stated that he never left Greece. Try again.

I simply observe archaeology has shuckscanned the entire narrative in the Septuagint as being fanciful in the same sense a Oz and Wonderland and Never Never Land are fanciful creations.

Of course if you can refer to physical evidence for the existence of an Israel as described in the bible you will be the first. You should do it in a professional publication rather than here so you get credit for being the first.

Who is talking about the Septuagint?

At this point I'll simply ignore any further derailments. You can start a new thread about this at any point, if there's not a few up already.

 

[Thunder]

Actually only 46% of the Jews were born there. They can curse their parents for that not the Palestinians. .

and what about today?

Approximately 68% of Israeli Jews are Israeli-born, 22% are immigrants from Europe and the Americas, and 10% are immigrants from Asia and Africa (including the Arab World).[313][314] Jews who immigrated to Israel from Arab and Muslim lands and their descendants constitute about 50% of Jewish Israelis.[315][316][317]

this means that 78% of Israeli Jews are immigrants either born in the land, or are from the Middle East and North Africa.

you...FAIL.

 

[bigjelmapro]

While the Ashkenazis who were the Zionists have no more descent from the middle east than you or me. Although descent has nothing to do with land claims else I can reclaim my castle in Poland.

So Ashkenazis are 'the Zionists' whilst the rest are not?

What is a ME descent anyways? Indo-Europeans still settled the area (ie Phoenicians) way before South Semitic peoples, ie ethnic Arabs did.

Actually only 46% of the Jews were born there. They can curse their parents for that not the Palestinians.

According to what source?

It was from Israeli sources I first learned six of the dead on the Mava Marmara raid died from close range head shots, i.e. murdered.

Take it to the Mavi Marmara thread. This has been discussed, included the peculiar statement that close range shots = murder. Thanks for playing.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Excuse me but I can trace the issue the late 1940s and early 1950s under the color of Israeli law. Israel did in fact acknowledge their ownership of the land. But in those years the basic absent owner law and its refinements were passed. The basic law declared that property owned by an absent owner reverted to the state -- despite the fact that Jews murdered owners who attempted to return often forcing them to dig their own graves.
....

Ah, you're getting this from Rense.com. Now I know your impeccable source.

 

[Matt Giwer]

The CT part of the forum is that way --->

Being a newbie I have no idea what that means. Please explain.

Burden of proof lies on your end. There's plenty of threads that address this topic in detail, but you have made it your mission to derail this thread with a sort of shock-and-awe tactic of throwing everything on the table in 1 thread.

Actually it is the burden of evidence not proof. I have no interest in derailing this thread. I came across it and immediately applied for membership so I could post and did so as soon as possible. As for everything at once I haven't posted a fraction of the material I have learned from impeccably Jewish and Israeli and Zionist sources. Facts and opinion of facts are quite different things.

Also attacking the person rather than the material is the ad hominem attack which I would have assumed was beneath the intelligent if not the dignity of participants here. So why attack me personally instead of addressing what i have posted?

Iraq and Egypt didn't compensate the Jews that were evicted by these states for loss of property and the those Arabs countries that absorbed the bank accounts of the Jews evicted.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestinians who were driven out by Jewish terrorists. Why do you bring it up?

Voided armistice lines are just that, voided. They were de facto borders since there was never a mutual agreement except with Jordan and Egypt.

The UN established the borders. Israel partially insists upon the UN determined line with Lebanon but denies it when everyone including Syria agrees the Sheeba Farms belong to Lebanon.

And those Palestinians living in Canada, US, Ireland, UK, Netherlands, etc. don't have respective accents? Lived amongst quite a few in Canada that spoke in Canadian accents having been born overseas. So irrelevant.

I merely gave one but far from the only reason the US does not put more pressure on Israel to end the criminals and their squattertowns in occupied territories. Another reason is the braindead, redneck fundies who actually believe there was a biblical Israel, an Israel as described in the bible.

What do you want from me? Denial of the obvious?

 

[Matt Giwer]

Cite this. You have this tendancy of making far-fetched claims and then trying to get other people to do the leg-work in order to prove you wrong.

This is quite peculiar.

Cease with the constant derailing.

Excuse me but I have a problem. You post something without citation and then upon disagreement you demand citation. This borders on proof of a negative.

Let me make this simple. You have made a claim. Who told you that and why did you believe them? At least then you will have presented your source.

 

[drkitten]

i have never heard of this...please provide some evidence. The State of Israel does not represent the Jewish people, nor the Jews of Europe.

From this site, discussing the problem of Nazi gold seized from the Jews: (And PBS is usually pretty reputable about these sorts of things. It's not like this comes from jews.must.die.com)

November 1992 The Israeli Minister of Finance Avraham Shohat signs a memorandum recognizing that the State of Israel considers itself the heir to Jewish public property and heirless Jewish private property lost in the Holocaust.

If anything, Jewish property that cannot be returned to former owners or their heirs, should go to the Jewish community of the city, town, or country.

But this is still a double standard. In fact, it's the same one. Jewish property that cannot be returned to the owner should be returned to the heir. if not, it should go to the Jewish community.

But the heirs to Palestinian property, seized in the Nakba, should just forget the past and the property should remain with the people who stole them. That's basically what you wrote in post #24.

 

[Thunder]

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestinians who were driven out by Jewish terrorists. Why do you bring it up?

Jews born in Palestine before 1949, are Palestinian. And their descendants are of Palestinian descent. Just as much as any Arab, Bedouin, etc etc.

Contrary to Arab and left-wing propaganda, Muslims and Arabs do not have a monopoly on being Palestinian.

 

[Matt Giwer]

The United Nations General Assembly voted to create a Jewish State and an Arab State, out of Palestine. Who owned what percent of the land, really didn't make of a difference to them.

I would be having more fun here if this were a Mensa board.

Sovereignty over a land and ownership of the land are entirely different concepts. If this were a Mensa group I would be joking about the inability to understand the difference even when it is in all the law books and even dictionaries.

Furthermore, the UN Gen. Assemb. recognized Israel within its current borders in 1949. What say you?

Based upon that recognition the occupation of Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, the Syrian aka Golan Heights and the Shaaba farms are in criminal violation of the 4th Geneva convention and the 5th Hague convention on land warfare. Occupied territory must be administered to the benefit of the occupied people and settling the population of the occupying power is a hanging offense as was found at Nuremberg.

It sounds like you have an issue with Israel and every country on Earth which recognizes their post-1949 borders, which is pretty much everyone.

Actually it sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about. Not being insulting but in raising the 1949 borders you invite, even invoke, a condemnation of all the crimes of the occupation.

But I agree, Israel should monetarily compensate folks who had land confiscated.

Factually the choice of the form of compensation should be the at the choice of the victim. That is what Jews claim for themselves. Palestinians are no lesser a life form than Jews.

 

[varwoche]

Because not allowing to people return to land they left voluntarily (most of them) is exactly the same as stuffing people into ovens by the millions.

A prime example of parsing someone else's words in a way that's so outlandish that it's borderline embarassing to read. I particularly enjoy how you bolded exactly, almost like self parody. Only on a skeptical forum I suppose.

 

[Matt Giwer]

i would like to see evidence that the Haganah threatened mass murder against the Arabs who did not leave Israel.

Dier Yassin was not mass murder?

What do you consider to be mass murder? Is there a numeric threshhold?

 

[Matt Giwer]

Because he didn't travel there.

So we've established that nothing in religious texts has any historical significance whatsoever. Duly noted.

Precisely. Perhaps I need post my material on the origin of the Yahweh cult. I am new here but I assume the group with History in its title is the appropriate one.

The bottom line is that biblical Israel exists only in a collection of fiction which cannot be credibly dated older than the 2nd c. BC and which is completely refuted by the science of archaeology.