Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[christianahannah]

Is that the end of the year 2010 or 2011?

And you missed out the coroner's expert opinion that Meredith died within 2-3 hours of consuming her last substantial meal. Her English friends testified that Meredith ate pizza at around 6pm; that makes a 9pm death seem very likely, and it makes an 11pm death seem very unlikely indeed.

I believe Meredith and friends ate pizza first, viewed some Halloween photos on a computer, watched The Notebook and ate some apple crumble with ice cream halfway through the movie. If the movie finished approximately before Meredith left for her flat this could make the time the dessert was eaten approximately 7:30-8:00 p.m. (assuming the movie started around 6:30-7 p.m.).

Couldn't the eating of the dessert push the time of death further into the evening (depending on how much Meredith ate)?

 

[LondonJohn]

AltF4,

No, the knife was seized within a couple of weeks; you are probably thinking of the bra clasp. There are good reasons for him not to have testified at the trial, not the least of which is what he wrote in his diary. My speculation is that his mental health may not be 100%, and the stress of testifying would be a problem.

I don't think that Sollecito necessarily needed an active reason not to testify - although his confused (and confusing) diary entries, coupled with his statements to police over 5/5 November, probably added extra weight to the decision not to take the stand.

As has been previously discussed, people accused of serious criminal offences usually stand to net-benefit from not testifying, whatever they may or may not have said/written/done between the crime and the trial. One most certainly cannot infer guilt or innocence from whether a defendant testifies in his/her own defence.

I certainly hope (for their sakes) that neither Knox nor Sollecito takes to the stand in the appeals.

 

[Kevinfay]

This is the weirdest kind of argumentation common among people arguing your side. The inherent syllogism is "Dan-o was not in court, therefore Dan-o's claims about jurors falling asleep in court must be false". Seriously, read your sentence again? Is that REALLY your argument?

I think every reasonable person at this point can admit that jurors were falling asleep during the trial. Tons of people who were in court have stated this. Dan-O didn't just create it out of thin air. Enough already.

1. Could you explain which 'side' I am on?

2. Could you explain which 'side' the jurors were on?

3. Where are you getting this report on jurors falling asleep from?

4.Why did the both sets of lawyers not complain at the time?. Presumablely, if this gossip were true, both sets of lawyers have been equally agrieved?

5. So, we can certainly expect this serious matter to be brought up during the appeals?, or do you believe that the defense lawyers are too incompetent to do this?

Really, if AK and RS are to have any chance on appeal, we need to see some credible arguments in the appeals documents? Thats what I hope to see over the coming months.

The idea that the jurors were complete idiots, is an argument about as convincing as the idea that Knox is a 'sociopath'? ..... neither supported by evidence, neither very helpful.

 

[Kevinfay]

Filomena testified that Amanda cried after Meredith's death and also that the two had a normal relationship. Laura testified that no one at the house drank much.

I agree 100% with what you say. So did the jury, they rejected the prosecution idea that there was bad feeling between AK and RS .... another good reason to believe them about the scratch?

 

[Dan O.]

Couldn't the eating of the dessert push the time of death further into the evening (depending on how much Meredith ate)?

Why do you want to push the time of death further into the evening. Shouldn't facts such as the time of death be determined independently from the theory of the crime?

 

[RoseMontague]

Is this the fifth time... the sixth time that we have to whack this same damn mole?

I normally believe you make very sound, effective, and logical arguments. I don't think that is the case with this particular mole. It's a real stretch.

 

[RoseMontague]

I believe Meredith and friends ate pizza first, viewed some Halloween photos on a computer, watched The Notebook and ate some apple crumble with ice cream halfway through the movie. If the movie finished approximately before Meredith left for her flat this could make the time the dessert was eaten approximately 7:30-8:00 p.m. (assuming the movie started around 6:30-7 p.m.).

Couldn't the eating of the dessert push the time of death further into the evening (depending on how much Meredith ate)?

The prosecution keeps pushing the Time of Death later to match testimony from unreliable witnesses. It is like forcing a square peg into a round hole. After they finally get that thing in there with a sledge hammer, they step back and say, see it all fits so perfectly. Take away the miracle ear lady hearing the scream and the whacked according to me on the park bench and you have a mountain of evidence pointing to a time of death between 9pm and 10pm.

 

[RoseMontague]

Five more Questions. Again feel free to correct any misunderstandings I may have, and give your own answers/opinions.

Why didn't Amanda Knox tell Filomena that she had already called Meredith's mobile phone when she spoke to her at 12.08pm on 2 November 2007?

I believe katy_did already corrected the basic misunderstanding of the relevant quote. The phone records indicate she called Meredith's British phone, then Filomena, then both Meredith's Italian phone and British phone. Amanda's appeal points out the the British phone is the main phone that Meredith always had with her and that is the reason she tried that one first. I believe she called Filomena who asked her if she had tried the Italian phone as well and she immediately called that one after her conversation with Filomena.

Why did Amanda Knox tell the postal police that Meredith always locked her door?

I am not sure that "always" part is entirely accurate. Frank has a post on this that clarifies the question further:
http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/02/amanda-diabolic-or-lost-in-translation.html
I believe that both absolute statements (always locked her door and never locked her door) are probably not correct. Most people lock their doors on occasion but most people rarely lock their door on all occasions.
Do you think Amanda Knox made a genuine attempt contact Meredith on 2 November 2007?

Yes see answer to question number 1 above.

Why did Amanda Knox phone her mother in the middle of the night before anything had happened?

I don't understand this question, maybe someone can help. Is it referring to the fact that she forgot she called her Mom at 5am US time?

Do you believe that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollectio couldn't remember very much about the evening Meredith was murdered because they were suffering from cannabis-induced amnesia?

Nope

 

[el buscador]

I believe Meredith and friends ate pizza first, viewed some Halloween photos on a computer, watched The Notebook and ate some apple crumble with ice cream halfway through the movie. If the movie finished approximately before Meredith left for her flat this could make the time the dessert was eaten approximately 7:30-8:00 p.m. (assuming the movie started around 6:30-7 p.m.).

Couldn't the eating of the dessert push the time of death further into the evening (depending on how much Meredith ate)?

Does anyone have a report on Meredith's stomach contents at the time of her autopsy?

 

[katy_did]

I believe Meredith and friends ate pizza first, viewed some Halloween photos on a computer, watched The Notebook and ate some apple crumble with ice cream halfway through the movie. If the movie finished approximately before Meredith left for her flat this could make the time the dessert was eaten approximately 7:30-8:00 p.m. (assuming the movie started around 6:30-7 p.m.).

Couldn't the eating of the dessert push the time of death further into the evening (depending on how much Meredith ate)?

I seem to remember (both from Massei and from reading the appeals) that it's the start of the meal that's important in terms of working out time of death. Something to do with that marking the beginning of the digestion process. Not sure of the exact biological details of it, though!

 

[Alt+F4]

After being told (and being naive enough to believe) that Meredith's DNA was on that knife, he wrote in his diary that the only possible explanation he could think of was an incident where he touched Amanda on the hand with that knife.

Please explain how, if he "touched" Amanda with the knife, her DNA was not found on it? You really expect anyone to believe Amanda just happened to have Meredith's DNA on that particular place on her hand and when the knife touched that particular place only Meredith's DNA was transferred?

Even if anyone was inclined to believe this fiction, the incident happened while they were cooking together. If it was Amanda he was cooking with it makes logical sense that she would have washed her hands first, thus removing any foreign DNA.

This mole is practically the poster child for the closed circle of error that makes up a large part of internet guilter mythology. A "fact" gets started by an incompetent journalist or an overexited internet poster, and if it fits pleasingly into the guilter mythology it gates taken up and repeated over and over again until it gains the status of known fact. At that point it doesn't matter how often it gets objectively debunked - confirmation bias and fallible human memory take care of the rest.

It has nothing to do with mythology and you have debunked nothing. This is the English version of the paragraph from his diary:

I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then return

home. The fact that there is Meredith's DNA on the kitchen is because once while cooking together, I shifted myself in the house handling the knife, I had the point on her hand, and immediately after I apologized but she had nothing done to her. So the only real

explanation of the kitchen knife is this.

 

[katy_did]

Oh, I`m sorry, as it seems to take years before an English version of Massei`s report will be released, I have to rely on English fragments, which were made public from the Micheli report.
You said, that Micheli and Massei disagreed on the time of the removal of the bra. So it seems, that there are arguments for both sides of that issue.
I`m really curious about the explenation, Massei gives, when, in his opinion, the bra was removed.

Yeah, one of the problems with that particular issue is that it would have been discussed during the closed sessions of the trial, so we don't really know the details of why Massei rejected the prosecution's theory on that. From memory, he doesn't go into details in the report either (no need, since they didn't consider it evidence against Knox and Sollecito); he just doesn't mention any alteration of the scene in the bedroom, and then at one point he talks about the way the jury thought the clasp was cut during the attack. So unfortunately, even in the report I don't think there's any real explanation as to why they disagreed with the prosecution there (IIRC).

The standard of proof for Micheli's decision was obviously quite a lot lower than that needed for Massei (since he was only deciding whether to send the pair to trial) so presumably the evidence on that issue wasn't convincing when it was examined in more detail in court.

 

[katy_did]

Sorry, I'll put my trust in Laura and Filomena. I have my doubts about a lot of the witnesses in this case, but not these two.

Hi Kevin, do you have a link to what Laura and Filomena said about it?

 

[katy_did]

Exactly - it has to be one or the other. Any half-competent doctor would be able to tell whether a 5-day-old mark was the result of a sucking contusion (e.g. love bite) or a breakage of the skin with a sharp object (e.g. human nail, knife). And Knox had been questioned daily since the day after the murder - was she wearing a polo neck or neck scarf all this time?

OK, next time I get a hickey I am totally describing it like that. In fact I may even get one deliberately just so I can describe it like that.

 

[Alt+F4]

I also see that a new theory is that Knox and Sollecito might have seen the postal police driving around trying to find the house, and that this might have prompted them to hurriedly make the calls to Knox's mother, Sollecito's sister, and the Carabinieri. Well, this theory seems to have been devised in the absence of the knowledge that the postal police officers were not in uniform, and were driving in an unmarked car.

So unless Knox or Sollecito had an uncanny ability to identify plain-clothes police officers in unmarked cars driving past the house a few times, maybe we can discount this theory.

According to Bruce Fisher's website Amanda and Raffaele assumed the Postal Police were the Carabinieri responding to Raffaele's call. Why would they assume the Postal Police were the Carabinieri if the Postal Police were in plain clothes?

 

[LondonJohn]

I believe Meredith and friends ate pizza first, viewed some Halloween photos on a computer, watched The Notebook and ate some apple crumble with ice cream halfway through the movie. If the movie finished approximately before Meredith left for her flat this could make the time the dessert was eaten approximately 7:30-8:00 p.m. (assuming the movie started around 6:30-7 p.m.).

Couldn't the eating of the dessert push the time of death further into the evening (depending on how much Meredith ate)?

I think (but I might be wrong) that the coroner identified pizza as the main meal, and that this was the meal that showed 2-3 hours' digestion. I believe that some apple product might have been found in her oesophagus, implying that she had consumed it quite shortly before her death (less than an hour). But I would welcome clarification on this from anyone who has firmer information.

 

[RoseMontague]

I think (but I might be wrong) that the coroner identified pizza as the main meal, and that this was the meal that showed 2-3 hours' digestion. I believe that some apple product might have been found in her oesophagus, implying that she had consumed it quite shortly before her death (less than an hour). But I would welcome clarification on this from anyone who has firmer information.

The appeal asks that this piece be tested as the defense believes it is a bit of apple rather than the prosecutions guess that it is a piece of mushroom.

 

[el buscador]

I think (but I might be wrong) that the coroner identified pizza as the main meal, and that this was the meal that showed 2-3 hours' digestion. I believe that some apple product might have been found in her oesophagus, implying that she had consumed it quite shortly before her death (less than an hour). But I would welcome clarification on this from anyone who has firmer information.

According to Candace Dempsy's book, Meredith possibly nibbled mushrooms just before her death. A package of mushrooms was found on Meredith's shelf of the fridge with one of the corners of the package pushed back and the coroner claimed there was a mushroom in Meredith's esophagus. I do believe the defense mentioned the fact that whatever was in the esophagus could have been a piece of the apple, however.

 

[Kestrel]

According to Bruce Fisher's website Amanda and Raffaele assumed the Postal Police were the Carabinieri responding to Raffaele's call. Why would they assume the Postal Police were the Carabinieri if the Postal Police were in plain clothes?

Raffaele called 112, the Italian emergency number. Then waited in the cottage driveway for the police to show up. Two men walk up shortly after his call and introduce themselves as police Why would it be out of place for Amanda and Raffaele to assume they were responding to the 112 call?

The theory that you still seem stuck on is that Raffaele called 112 about 25 minutes after the Postal Police arrived. Showing them the broken window, the blood and the locked door would only take about 5 minutes. For your theory to be true, we have to assume the Postal Police did nothing during the next 20 minutes. That somehow Amanda and Raffaele managed to slip away and call the Carabinieri without being overheard by these officers who were just standing around.

 

[Malkmus]

According to Bruce Fisher's website Amanda and Raffaele assumed the Postal Police were the Carabinieri responding to Raffaele's call. Why would they assume the Postal Police were the Carabinieri if the Postal Police were in plain clothes?

I think it's a logical assumption that if you call law enforcement authorities and then some minutes later they show up, albeit from a different faction than the one you specifically called, you assume that it's because you called them. I'm sure the event was all around confusing for both sides, but cleared up within their first conversation. If I call the police to tell them about a possible break-in and a plain-clothes detective arrives, I wouldn't assume that it was unrelated to my call. I think regardless of how they were dressed, the thought process when approached by the postal police was "the authorities I called are here".