Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Chris_Halkides]

the kitchen knife and possible sources of contamination

Why does it not work the other way around? There is evidence presented in court that the DNA on the knife is real yet there are those here who say it is contaminated or fabricated with nothing to back that up but pure speculation based on a belief in a conspiracy against an Amaerican woman and an Italian man. The assertions that the DNA results are not real with regards to the crime are merely opinion with no basis in fact. They are beliefs only and not an argument.

DanceMe,

During cross-examination Officer Finzi admitted he handed the knife to Officer Gubbiotti, who was at Meredith’s flat that day. See Murder in Italy, p. 212, by Candace Dempsey.

You are also ignoring the lack of blood on the knife. Unless you believe that one can remove blood without removing DNA, the lack of blood is one piece of information that points toward contamination. And let us not forget that there was a great amount of Meredith’s DNA in the laboratory from the evidence items that were tested.

 

[Dan O.]

Dan O,

There is a photo of the scatch on PMF, it seemed clearer and probably the photo was taken earlier. The clincher is really that AK's housemate noticed it immediately on the 2 Nov and testified that she was absolutely convinced that it could not possibly be a lovebite.

If you hold a knife against someone's throat, I don't see why it couldn't leave a scratch?

Kevinfay, you obviously don't know what a hickey looks like. I suggest you do some research and in particular look at the images here.

And when was the first time Filomena mentioned the mark to anybody? She claimed she didn't mention it because she thought someone else would have noticed it. In the early day following the murder, Amanda was literally surrounded by detectives yet the first notice given of this mark is when Amanda is stripped and photographed upon her arrest. Even then, it is merely documented that a mark exists. There is no close examination that would have definitively proven if the skin were cut by a knife blade or a scratch from a finger nail. They would have been looking for such evidence of a struggle and yet they just gloss over this mark which to the trained professional looks like nothing more than a hickey.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Raffaele backed up Amanda

RS stated he was 'at a party' - that was found to be untrue - RS stated that AK left his apartment late that evening - this he has not refuted. As far as he is concerned AK was not with him that night. There is no evidence that AK and RS were at the apartment together all that night....

The mark and the angle of the recovered knife that AK used to murder have been shown by forensic analysis in the trial. The knife was recovered. It has the DNA of AK on the handle and the DNA of Meredith Kercher in an indentation some way up the blade.

Tronic,

Raffaele never said that he was at a party; a newspaper report got that wrong. Raffaele backed up Amanda at their hearing in front of Judge Matteini. In his diary Raffaele recalls Amanda saying to him that if she had not been with him that night, she would also be dead. According to Perugia-Shock (25 April 2008) Raffaele’s lawyers invoked the concept of “erroneous assumption,” rather than “erroneous belief.” If they had said “erroneous belief”, it would mean that Amanda was not with him. But “erroneous assumption” has more to do with making an assumption than with the thing being assumed. Thus there is no justification for using his appearance before the Supreme Court as evidence that Raffaele did not support Amanda's alibi.

No photographs that I have ever seen show smearing of blood revealed by luminol. Can you support your claim? Any knife could have made the third wound, including the knife that made the first two, and that knife had to be smaller than the ordinary kitchen knife.

 

[katy_did]

Katody: One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that you are KATY-DID from Jref. KATODY simply comes from KATY-DO.

Not a rocket scientist, just someone with a tendency to read too much into insignificant details (like forgotten phone calls, for example ). I can't take the credit for Katody's posts, I'm afraid.

Hope the dissenters keep posting, though. PMF is so much funner when there are people disagreeing with them.

 

[katy_did]

Ehm, the relevant part of my quote of the Micheli report isn`t about mist of blood drops, it`s rather about a huge amount of blood in the area of MK`s right shoulder, which came from her neck wound. But I can quote for you again:
"Photographs of Meredith’s body show clear white areas where the bra prevented blood from falling onto Merediths body. These white areas corresponded to those areas where blood was found on her bra. This was particularly true in the area of the right shoulder strap which was soaked from the wound to Meredith’s neck."

I think you were mistaken from the quite unfortunate translation "...prevented blood from falling onto Merediths body.." and concluded, that all these areas had just mist of blood drops on it !?!

If you take a look at the pictures of the blood-soaked bra (there are some on the internet), trust Micheli`s ability to disntinguish between some mist of blood drops and an area overflown with blood, which originated from a large wound, then it`s obvious, that this blood came from the neck injury.

Liam, a lot of what you're talking about here was rejected by the jury. There were identical spots of blood from aspiration underneath Meredith's bra as well as on it, meaning it was removed (or fell off) while she was breathing. Massei states the bra clasp was cut during the attack, not removed later as the prosecution tried to claim, and he rejected any suggestion that the crime scene itself (in the bedroom) was altered significantly afterwards. Micheli was wrong on this, as he was also wrong about the fingerprints, for example.

 

[Alt+F4]

You are also ignoring the lack of blood on the knife. Unless you believe that one can remove blood without removing DNA, the lack of blood is one piece of information that points toward contamination. And let us not forget that there was a great amount of Meredith’s DNA in the laboratory from the evidence items that were tested.

Wasn't the knife seized by the police seven weeks after the murder? Why would there still be a great amount of Meredith's DNA in the laboratory? Wouldn't it be more likely that if there was contamination it would be from a case the lab was working on at the time the knife was brought in?

It's my belief that the knife never left RS's apartment and had nothing to do with the murder at all. RS's statement regarding the knife do, in my opinion, point to his guilt. He found out about the DNA results not from a brutal police interrogation, but from a television news report. He told his lie about the dinner knife pricking freely.

RS, knowing he murdered MK, but having a hazy memory due to drug intoxication at the time of the crime, probably could not remember what knife was used and felt he had to come up with an explaination for what he saw on the news.

Why do you think RS didn't testify at his trial? His lawyers knew he was a liar.

 

[Kevinfay]

Here on JREF we don't simply accept claims like this without proof.

It does however seem to be acceptable on PMF, which may be where you read this claim.

I notice something else about this issue. The defenders of the Perugia authorities can't decide between simply denying that Amanda was abused and minimizing the abuse that did happen.

It was Knox who minimized the claim when questioned about it in court. Did her lawyer get photos taken of any wounds and follow up the allegations?.

If brutality is so widespread in Italy, then as a member of the International Red Cross here in Switzerland, I should ask them to launch an investigation?. Hope they are not too busy with the victims of waterboarding?

 

[LiamG.]

Liam, a lot of what you're talking about here was rejected by the jury. There were identical spots of blood from aspiration underneath Meredith's bra as well as on it, meaning it was removed (or fell off) while she was breathing. Massei states the bra clasp was cut during the attack, not removed later as the prosecution tried to claim, and he rejected any suggestion that the crime scene itself (in the bedroom) was altered significantly afterwards. Micheli was wrong on this, as he was also wrong about the fingerprints, for example.

Oh, I`m sorry, as it seems to take years before an English version of Massei`s report will be released, I have to rely on English fragments, which were made public from the Micheli report.
You said, that Micheli and Massei disagreed on the time of the removal of the bra. So it seems, that there are arguments for both sides of that issue.
I`m really curious about the explenation, Massei gives, when, in his opinion, the bra was removed.

 

[Kevinfay]

Kevinfay, you obviously don't know what a hickey looks like. I suggest you do some research and in particular look at the images here.

And when was the first time Filomena mentioned the mark to anybody? She claimed she didn't mention it because she thought someone else would have noticed it. In the early day following the murder, Amanda was literally surrounded by detectives yet the first notice given of this mark is when Amanda is stripped and photographed upon her arrest. Even then, it is merely documented that a mark exists. There is no close examination that would have definitively proven if the skin were cut by a knife blade or a scratch from a finger nail. They would have been looking for such evidence of a struggle and yet they just gloss over this mark which to the trained professional looks like nothing more than a hickey.

Sorry, I'll put my trust in Laura and Filomena. I have my doubts about a lot of the witnesses in this case, but not these two.

 

[Dan O.]

RS stated he was 'at a party' - that was found to be untrue - RS stated that AK left his apartment late that evening - this he has not refuted. As far as he is concerned AK was not with him that night. There is no evidence that AK and RS were at the apartment together all that night.

Where are you getting your facts? (and why do all the new posters use 2 letter aliases for names that we all know?)

If you compare Raffaele's statement of his activities for Halloween night you will find a remarkable similarity to what the reporter that supposedly interviewed him stated he was doing on the next night. I am convinced that the reporter either confused the two nights or consolidated the stories to fit the column. Your mistake is that you presume the words attributed to Raffaele by the reporter were Raffaele's own words.

The evidence of a cleanup has been proved

- blood traces smeared by the cleanup (highlighted by Luminol) were all over the place.

Perhaps you missed the part that the Luminol prints were tested for blood and found to be negative.

RS and AK were caught in the process of cleaning up.

Are you re-invoking the claim that they were holding the mop and bucket when the police arrived. Are you forgetting that Amanda had already called Filomena and Raffaele had already called his sister and the police emergency number before the postal police arrived? You say they did this while in the process of cleaning up?

The lamp of AK which was the only source of light in her room was found within the room of Meredith Kercher (why?).

The location of the lamp does not say who moved it or when. It could have been moved by Meredith long before the murder or it could have been moved by the photographers after the body had been discovered.

AK was photographed the next morning with a missing ear-ring.

So what. Perhaps if she were missing part of an ear that would be important.


(parts redacted,please contact the Perugia police directly and explain to them how you have so much direct knowledge of what happened during Meredith's murder. I'm sure they would be quite interested.)

The plug of the lamp was found outside the door of the room.

Of all the people gathered in front of Meredith's door just before it was kicked open, which one noticed the plug to the lamp sticking out under the door? There is also no reason for the plug to be outside the door since the outlet is clearly visible on the wall just inside the door. With all the traffic in and out of that room since the door was kicked open starting with the postal inspector that didn't lift the duvet and didn't see the knife wound on Meredith's neck and didn't verify that Meredith was in fact dead and not just in critical condition and in need of immediate emergency assistance, it would not be surprising that at some point the plug got kicked into the hall.

AK stated to the postal police that nothing was missing from the cottage (how did she know?) this was an obvious lie

What were her exact words? Did she use Italian which she didn't know well? Did she use english which the postal inspector didn't know?

The statement may have been factually incorrect because we now know that there were things missing.

...because the student light - the only light source in the room was missing from her room. She must have checked her own room.

I'm sure the first thing you would look for when you suspect your house had been burglarized would be if your desk lamp is still there.

I see that you are repeating the same lie (highlighted above) that so many PMFers make. On the morning that Amanda returned to the cottage there would be plenty of natural light available. This is evident in many of the photographs that you should have seen.

If Amanda had moved her lamp into Meredith's room, how could she not have noticed it missing from her room the next morning? That Amanda didn't mention the lamp missing is not evidence of anything except perhaps that Amanda is not very observant.


(again, please share your personal knowledge of the crime with the proper authorities)

There is no requirement under italian law to record interviews.

And yet we know there were recordings of just about every interaction of the suspects except when it comes to the critical interviews on the 5th/6th.

 

[LondonJohn]

Thanks for that correction Katy_did (that makes a huge difference). The appeals do mention that in previous testimony Filomena said that the glass was not only on top of the clothes but also in the middle and underneath. The Massei report ignores this testimony in favor of the testimony pointing more towards guilt. Just as it ignores testimony from the police investigator and the employee regarding Quintavalle. Just as it ignores evidence by the mobile phone records of a Time Of Death between 9pm and 10pm. Just as it ignores evidence of a third female DNA profile on that sample in the sink that Mignini considered one of the three key pieces of evidence in his recent interview (along with the knife and bra clasp).

There is a pattern here. It looks like the much awaited for PMF translation should be done by the end of the year, I think it will reveal this pattern very clearly.

Is that the end of the year 2010 or 2011?

And you missed out the coroner's expert opinion that Meredith died within 2-3 hours of consuming her last substantial meal. Her English friends testified that Meredith ate pizza at around 6pm; that makes a 9pm death seem very likely, and it makes an 11pm death seem very unlikely indeed.

 

[HumanityBlues]

______________________

Hi Rose.

You are confusing the two bathrooms in the upstairs of the cottage. The unflushed toilet was on the other side of the cottage, in the bathroom shared by Laura and Filomena.

And Raffaele wasn't "convinced" by the cops to admit that he did not know whether Amanda had left. Raffaele said, instead, that Amanda had left him. Period. (See his Prison Diary)

///

Hi Fine.

Are we still waiting on your explanation for putting forth a fact that was obviously false, shown to you to be false, and then you creating false nuance to make it seem like it was still true? Or are you finally going to just admit you were wrong about the pepper spray law? A lot of us are eagerly awaiting your response, but maybe you've conceded defeat on this already.

Thanks in advance.

 

[HumanityBlues]

4. Were you in court when these people 'fell asleep'?

This is the weirdest kind of argumentation common among people arguing your side. The inherent syllogism is "Dan-o was not in court, therefore Dan-o's claims about jurors falling asleep in court must be false". Seriously, read your sentence again? Is that REALLY your argument?

I think every reasonable person at this point can admit that jurors were falling asleep during the trial. Tons of people who were in court have stated this. Dan-O didn't just create it out of thin air. Enough already.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Wasn't the knife seized by the police seven weeks after the murder? Why would there still be a great amount of Meredith's DNA in the laboratory? Wouldn't it be more likely that if there was contamination it would be from a case the lab was working on at the time the knife was brought in?

It's my belief that the knife never left RS's apartment and had nothing to do with the murder at all. RS's statement regarding the knife do, in my opinion, point to his guilt. He found out about the DNA results not from a brutal police interrogation, but from a television news report. He told his lie about the dinner knife pricking freely.

RS, knowing he murdered MK, but having a hazy memory due to drug intoxication at the time of the crime, probably could not remember what knife was used and felt he had to come up with an explaination for what he saw on the news.

Why do you think RS didn't testify at his trial? His lawyers knew he was a liar.

AltF4,

No, the knife was seized within a couple of weeks; you are probably thinking of the bra clasp. There are good reasons for him not to have testified at the trial, not the least of which is what he wrote in his diary. My speculation is that his mental health may not be 100%, and the stress of testifying would be a problem.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Laura and Filomena

Sorry, I'll put my trust in Laura and Filomena. I have my doubts about a lot of the witnesses in this case, but not these two.

Filomena testified that Amanda cried after Meredith's death and also that the two had a normal relationship. Laura testified that no one at the house drank much.

 

[el buscador]

Sorry, I'll put my trust in Laura and Filomena. I have my doubts about a lot of the witnesses in this case, but not these two.

So, if Filomena and Laura are to be believed, does this make the police who looked Amanda over and photographed her for any wounds incompetent?

 

[LondonJohn]

So, if Filomena and Laura are to be believed, does this make the police who looked Amanda over and photographed her for any wounds incompetent?

Exactly - it has to be one or the other. Any half-competent doctor would be able to tell whether a 5-day-old mark was the result of a sucking contusion (e.g. love bite) or a breakage of the skin with a sharp object (e.g. human nail, knife). And Knox had been questioned daily since the day after the murder - was she wearing a polo neck or neck scarf all this time?

Or is the truth simply that the police saw the mark pretty early on, and quickly concluded that it was of no value to the investigation? And could it not also be true that Laura and Filomena might have "remembered" more in hindsight - not for malicious reasons, but as a natural human frailty to convince oneself after the fact?

 

[Alt+F4]

No, the knife was seized within a couple of weeks; you are probably thinking of the bra clasp.

Ah, ok, thanks for the correction.

There are good reasons for him not to have testified at the trial, not the least of which is what he wrote in his diary. My speculation is that his mental health may not be 100%, and the stress of testifying would be a problem.

Interesting point. I remember reading here or on PMF that native Italian speakers posted that RS's Italian is very poor (phone calls to the police and diary), though Italian is his native language.

 

[LondonJohn]

It seems that even some of the more relentless pro-guilt advocates are now beginning to realise that the prosecution got the timing of the postal police's arrival very wrong - and that a simple analysis was able to prove how wrong they were. This again speaks volumes (to me) about the police's/prosecutors' competence and the bias in the investigation.

I also see that a new theory is that Knox and Sollecito might have seen the postal police driving around trying to find the house, and that this might have prompted them to hurriedly make the calls to Knox's mother, Sollecito's sister, and the Carabinieri. Well, this theory seems to have been devised in the absence of the knowledge that the postal police officers were not in uniform, and were driving in an unmarked car.

So unless Knox or Sollecito had an uncanny ability to identify plain-clothes police officers in unmarked cars driving past the house a few times, maybe we can discount this theory.

Maybe, instead, the Knox/Sollecito phone calls actually did take place without any prior knowledge of police presence/involvement.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

It's my belief that the knife never left RS's apartment and had nothing to do with the murder at all. RS's statement regarding the knife do, in my opinion, point to his guilt. He found out about the DNA results not from a brutal police interrogation, but from a television news report. He told his lie about the dinner knife pricking freely.

Is this the fifth time... the sixth time that we have to whack this same damn mole?

RS never "lied about dinner knife pricking".

After being told (and being naive enough to believe) that Meredith's DNA was on that knife, he wrote in his diary that the only possible explanation he could think of was an incident where he touched Amanda on the hand with that knife.

RS didn't say he touched Amanda, nor that he touched Meredith, he said he touched "her". Meredith had been the subject of his previous sentence, so at least one journalist and practically everyone in the guilter echo chambers ever since has put it forward as a fact that he said he touched Meredith with the knife.

The much more boring explanation which is much more consistent with Occam's Razor is that "her" refers to Amanda (the subject of the sentence before that), RS is a terrible writer who doesn't express himself clearly (we know this for a fact), and he was speculating about the possibility of secondary transfer. In other words, the time that he touched Amanda with the knife was the only incident he could think of where his knife's blade had touched anything or anyone that had been in Meredith's house, so he figured that must have been the way DNA from Meredith got on to his knife.

This mole is practically the poster child for the closed circle of error that makes up a large part of internet guilter mythology. A "fact" gets started by an incompetent journalist or an overexited internet poster, and if it fits pleasingly into the guilter mythology it gates taken up and repeated over and over again until it gains the status of known fact. At that point it doesn't matter how often it gets objectively debunked - confirmation bias and fallible human memory take care of the rest.