Obama declares war on Iran

And we all know that the UK had nothing to do with Ajax. Only evil America does things like that.......oh wait!
 
Virus said:
The whole subject came up because I said that regime change in Iran would be a good thing and inevitable. You said it wouldn't because the US had a shady involvement with the Shar sixty years ago. Times change. The new generation of Iranians is pro-West and want real democracy. We want real democracy there too.
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Actually the democratic movement in Iran has been around for at least 15 years that I am aware - also begun by younger Iranians fed up with the restrictive system.

They were on the verge of malking an impact when the government passes a law and had all the moderates either banned or arrested a matter of weeks before the particular election

Iran will get there - I just hope they manage to do it with the least amount of violence and social dislocation
 
Virus said:
Afghanistan was a democracy until the UN turned a blind-eye to vote rigging and corruption

...

The US never installed a government in Iran.
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Hahahahaha, ohhh, hahahaha! that's a god one! :D Oh, wait... You're serious? :eye-poppi
 
Shadowdweller said:
I am relatively certain that nobody here was claiming or implying this (literal statement). Presumably, you had some sort of relevant point?
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Um yeah, that it was the UK that primarily installed the Shah not the US who merely helped. They were the junior partner in that deal yet everyone always frames it as the "US installed Shah Government" and rarely mentions the UK involvement.

Also was the Shah really worse than the present Iranian government?
 
Travis said:
Um yeah, that it was the UK that primarily installed the Shah not the US who merely helped. They were the junior partner in that deal yet everyone always frames it as the "US installed Shah Government" and rarely mentions the UK involvement.
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As with so much of history, context is everything. Those who point the finger at the US, forget the US also helped get him out of power in 41' when they needed the land bridge to supply the Soviets.

If the US had not supported the UK in reinstating him, chances are Stalin would have pounced and got his grubby hands on the place. So damned if you do damned if you dont.

Also was the Shah really worse than the present Iranian government?
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A lot of Iranians are asking themselves that very question. The Shar did some very good things for the country, and screwed the pooch in others. So it really depends what is important to you, what the answer to that questions would be.
 
dtugg said:
Wait. The Iranians are too incompetent to refine their own oil? lol

Anyway, so what if it destroys their economy? And if they are stupid enough to respond like Japan did it would probably turn out about as well for Iran as it did for Japan.
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How many oil refineries has the US built lately? And the US isn't under any world sanctions.
 
Travis said:
Canada has not attacked the US.
Canada is not harboring anyone that has attacked the US.
Canada is not funding or assisting anyone that is attacking the US.
Canada is not committing unspeakable human rights abuses against it's own citizens.
Canada has not called for the destruction of another nation state and it's people.
Canada is not currently constructing nuclear weapons to carry out said genocidal threats.

...do I need to go on?
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Let's just compromise on this and attack Israel instead.
 
Travis said:
Um yeah, that it was the UK that primarily installed the Shah not the US who merely helped. They were the junior partner in that deal yet everyone always frames it as the "US installed Shah Government" and rarely mentions the UK involvement.
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Hogwash. The CIA directed and oversaw implementation of the coup, provided the majority of funds used, and drafted the operational plans. It was the British who "merely helped". Although records indicate that the original idea for covert removal of Mossadegh came from the British.

Travis said:
Also was the Shah really worse than the present Iranian government?
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You'd have to ask the Iranians on that score. I suspect that a large part of the relative antipathy toward the regime stems not so much from its own actions (which were still terrible enough) but from the perception that it was put in place only as a result of foreign manipulation.

MG1962 said:
As with so much of history, context is everything. Those who point the finger at the US, forget the US also helped get him out of power in 41' when they needed the land bridge to supply the Soviets.
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No, but occasionally an individual who should know better confuses the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, with his father, Reza Pahlavi. (Not to be further confused with his eldest son, also known as Reza Pahlavi).
 
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MG1962 said:
Afghanistan? really....I thought George just wanted to get up close and personal with the guy that arranged the death of 3000 people in the US

And Iraq...help me out. I thought it was about WMDs
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It was.
Wells&More Drilling
 
manxman said:
It was.
Wells&More Drilling
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What's wrong with opening up the oil supplies of Iraq and dealing with them through a democratic state? Was it in anyone's interest to have the oil supplies held hostage by a regime of psychopaths?
 
I'm guessing this thread didn't have the impact JJ had in mind... Kind of like an underwater fart, never quite as good as one would expect.
 
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Shadowdweller said:
Hogwash. The CIA directed and oversaw implementation of the coup, provided the majority of funds used, and drafted the operational plans. It was the British who "merely helped". Although records indicate that the original idea for covert removal of Mossadegh came from the British.
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I'm sure you will have many complete blithering idiots who will support this notion.

Ajax was a British Op. It was mostly being run for the benefit of BP for goodness sake.
 
Travis said:
I'm sure you will have many complete blithering idiots who will support this notion.

Ajax was a British Op. It was mostly being run for the benefit of BP for goodness sake.
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I suppose its a silly question to ask if i can see your sources for those claims.
 
Travis said:
I'm sure you will have many complete blithering idiots who will support this notion.

Ajax was a British Op
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Blithering idiots like the CIA themselves. But hey, I guess you know better than the principal agents involved :rolleyes:

http://cryptome.org/cia-iran-all.htm
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/

Section II said:
It also quickly became apparent that the SIS [British] was perfectly content to follow whatever lead was taken by the Agency. [That is, CIA]
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Also Section II said:
As at Nicosia it was apparent that the Americans were to be placated and allowed to run things as they pleased.
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At Nicosia, Leavitt did a most capable job of reassuring SIS officials who frequently felt that they were not receiving enough current information.
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On 14 August the station cabled that upon the con-clusion of TPAJAX the Zahedi government, in view of the empty treasury of the country, would be in urgent need of funds. The sum of $5,000,000 was suggested, and CIA was asked to produce this amount almost within hours after the conclusion of the operation.
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To list a minuscule few of many references. The name "TPAJAX" itself is a CIA cryptonym.
 
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