Germany had the atomic bomb first

[Corsair 115]

Germany was still on the Strategic Bombing Survey list of targets for the Allied nuclear bomb until October 1944 when it was mysteriously taken off the list.

Don't see why it would be that mysterious. With D-Day a success, Germany's days were numbered. By October 1944 the Luftwaffe was but a shadow of its former self, and Allied bombers ranged freely over all of Germany, pounding it into rubble.

 

[Simon39759]

Don't see why it would be that mysterious. With D-Day a success, Germany's days were numbered. By October 1944 the Luftwaffe was but a shadow of its former self, and Allied bombers ranged freely over all of Germany, pounding it into rubble.

One could argue that the days of Nazi Germany were numbered after the battle of Stalingrad rather than D-day.
But, yes, by October 1944, the writings were on the wall. Both fronts were advancing steadily and, by the end of that month, the U.S were in Germany.

 

[Nogbad]

Thuringia sounds like the sort of place that would test a bomb

The Germans experimented with heavy water and understood the principle of an atomic weapon. They shelved it because they didn't have the time or the resources - things were not going well on the Eastern front.

Now if the Germans hadn't invaded Russia who knows how things would have turned out (probably not desperately well).

 

[Shangrila]

Nothing you have said subsequent to my posts has persuaded me that the information I have posted is invalid and neither have you made any worthwhile effort to dispute my evidence thus far.

Well, I can't be absolutely certain that the information that you posted on the German Bomb is inaccurate, but I can be certain that the information you gave on possible delivery platforms are.

First, the only Do-217 variant that could hit 53k feet is the P variant designed for photo recon, with a third slave engine taking up the bomb bay driving compressors for the 2 main engines and it can only get that high when stripped of guns, unnecessary equipment, etc, and with nitrous injection which would blow the engines if used for more than 5 minutes. The actual bomber variants can't hit more than half that with a full bomb load. (which is not nearly enough for a nuke)

The He-277 is similar, with only 1 experimental unit without guns, turrets, sights, navigational equipment, a full crew, or full fuel load, and certainly no bombs that could hit 47k with nitrous injection. This is what happens a lot with Nazi napkinwaffe planes. Since they never saw production or combat service, people take theoretical performance goals or the maximum performance of experimental prototypes optimized for specific tests and take them as actual combat performance. An actual production He-277 with bombs will be flying well under 40k, and thus easily interceptable by every allied high altitude fighter of 1944. This is not even mentioning how the He-277's maximum (projected) bomb load is only half the weight of Little Boy, and its internal bomb bay is too small to accommodate it. Oh, it might be possible to make a bastard version that could carry a nuke with its bomb bay cut away, kind of like the projected nuke carrying Lancasters, but it will be flying low and slow and easy meat for anything around.

Further, this is also not mentioning the fact that the Allies were able to make intercepts between 45k and 51k as early as 1942 (of photo-recon Ju-86s) with stripped Spitfire Vs.

I rather suspect the rest of your claims are of equal validity, and hopefully some expert will arrive to confirm that.

 

[jimbob]

Well, I can't be absolutely certain that the information that you posted on the German Bomb is inaccurate, but I can be certain that the information you gave on possible delivery platforms are.

First, the only Do-217 variant that could hit 53k feet is the P variant designed for photo recon, with a third slave engine taking up the bomb bay driving compressors for the 2 main engines and it can only get that high when stripped of guns, unnecessary equipment, etc, and with nitrous injection which would blow the engines if used for more than 5 minutes. The actual bomber variants can't hit more than half that with a full bomb load. (which is not nearly enough for a nuke)

The He-277 is similar, with only 1 experimental unit without guns, turrets, sights, navigational equipment, a full crew, or full fuel load, and certainly no bombs that could hit 47k with nitrous injection. This is what happens a lot with Nazi napkinwaffe planes. Since they never saw production or combat service, people take theoretical performance goals or the maximum performance of experimental prototypes optimized for specific tests and take them as actual combat performance. An actual production He-277 with bombs will be flying well under 40k, and thus easily interceptable by every allied high altitude fighter of 1944. This is not even mentioning how the He-277's maximum (projected) bomb load is only half the weight of Little Boy, and its internal bomb bay is too small to accommodate it. Oh, it might be possible to make a bastard version that could carry a nuke with its bomb bay cut away, kind of like the projected nuke carrying Lancasters, but it will be flying low and slow and easy meat for anything around.

Further, this is also not mentioning the fact that the Allies were able to make intercepts between 45k and 51k as early as 1942 (of photo-recon Ju-86s) with stripped Spitfire Vs.

I rather suspect the rest of your claims are of equal validity, and hopefully some expert will arrive to confirm that.

Now add to this the fact that the Germans thought you needed tonnes of Uranium for critical mass, and it takes a lot longer to actually get enough material, then to try putting it into a bomb, *then* to try building a plane to carry it...

Both bombs had the problem of proper initiation. They both also had the problem of finding the correct critical mass in their various configurations.

Yes,

And this is one reason why they failed:

link

Powers and Frayn assert Heisenberg never calculated the critical mass of a U235 nuclear bomb. In fact, as my book Heisenberg and the Nazi Atomic Bomb Project (University of California Press, 1998) proves, Heisenberg had made such a calculation in early 1940 using the statistical technique known as the random walk and concluded that the critical mass was of the order of tons of U235. He did not simply dream this up as Frayn’s argument insists, but calculated it using nuclear data. The calculation is rehearsed no less than three times in the transcripts of the taped conversations between Heisenberg and other German physicists interned at Farm Hall in England in August 1945. It was this gross overestimate of the amount of U235 required for a bomb that prevented Heisenberg from driving ahead at full speed with the uranium bomb project.

 

[Chaos]

Now add to this the fact that the Germans thought you needed tonnes of Uranium for critical mass, and it takes a lot longer to actually get enough material, then to try putting it into a bomb, *then* to try building a plane to carry it...

Especially trying to build a plane that can carry the kind of bomb the Germans thought they needed... if that would have been possible at all with the technology of the time.

 

[Moss]

Am I wrong when I call shenanigans on the pineapple size atomic bomb quote by Heisenberg? Would an atomic bomb at that time of that size actually been able to raze a city?

 

[ComsatAngel2017]

<snip>

The He-277 is similar, with only 1 experimental unit without guns, turrets, sights, navigational equipment, a full crew, or full fuel load, and certainly no bombs that could hit 47k with nitrous injection. This is what happens a lot with Nazi napkinwaffe planes. Since they never saw production or combat service, people take theoretical performance goals or the maximum performance of experimental prototypes optimized for specific tests and take them as actual combat performance. An actual production He-277 with bombs will be flying well under 40k, and thus easily interceptable by every allied high altitude fighter of 1944. This is not even mentioning how the He-277's maximum (projected) bomb load is only half the weight of Little Boy, and its internal bomb bay is too small to accommodate it. Oh, it might be possible to make a bastard version that could carry a nuke with its bomb bay cut away, kind of like the projected nuke carrying Lancasters, but it will be flying low and slow and easy meat for anything around.
<snip>.

I've never heard that word used before but it sounds so incredibly accurate! Please please please may I use it elsewhere? (usually in threads dealing with "panzer-porn" rather than aircraft, but there you go).

 

[Shangrila]

I've never heard that word used before but it sounds so incredibly accurate! Please please please may I use it elsewhere? (usually in threads dealing with "panzer-porn" rather than aircraft, but there you go).

, feel free. I certainly didn't come up with the term, and it comes up quite often in a lot of history forums that see Nazi wonderweapon fans.

 

[Thomas]

Atomic Bump!

 

[Foolmewunz]

Count Folke von Bernadotte wrote his own autobiography before being assasinated by the Isreali Stern gang in September 1948. His book was published postumously.

Instead of Arms, Hodder and Stroughton,1949

I guess you could say there was no greater authority on the talks he held with Himmler than Bernadotte himself?

Bernadotte had negotiated a number of releases with Himmler and later in the war Himmler had been keen to discreetly distance himself from Hitler and war crimes in the eyes of the Allies

Himmler proposed surrender terms with Bernadotte at Lubeck on 24 April 1945 for Germany to continue fighting the Soviet Union but surrender to the western Allies. Bernadotte passed this information to Churchill and Truman but they rejected the idea. On 27 April 1945 Hitler heard a BBC broadcast whilst in his berlin bunker exposing these talks and promptly ordered the arrest and execution of both Himmler and Kammler.

Comments about Himmler's unacceptability arise from "Operation Sunrise," by Smith & Agarossi. Also from Operation Sunrise: America's OSS, Swiss Intelligence and the German Surrender 1945, by Stephen Hallbrook.

Interestingly it appears Hitler himself was aware of operation Sunrise at least as early as 17 April 1945.

Information about Dornberger's revelation at CSDIC internemnet camp 11 come from a 14 page report on what General Dornberger unwittingly disclosed to his compatriots at the camp in the presence of hidden microphones.<snip>

Wheeeee! That was fun. But it does nothing to actually bolster the contention that Himmler divorced himself from any association with the bomb project for the same reasons. His peace feelers are well known. I was more curious as to source material for that interesting contention about the bomb program.

Sorry if I seem to be being stubborn, but I've seen two kinds of people who support the Nazis Had The Bomb belief - monomaniacs who just fixate on Germany for whatever reason and nazi apologists. I'm hoping you're the former.

 

[dafydd]

Our neo-nazis seem to have given up on this thread.

 

[jimbob]

Especially trying to build a plane that can carry the kind of bomb the Germans thought they needed... if that would have been possible at all with the technology of the time.

That was what I was meaning.

Nobody would bother.

I have recently read a book about the cold war, (can't remember the title) where the point was made that the US, after the war, had very limited bomb making capability. In the early 1950's there was apparently discussion about how effective the entire US arsenal would have been at stopping a Soviet advance, and the US military knew how much fissile material was needed.

 

[jimbob]

Am I wrong when I call shenanigans on the pineapple size atomic bomb quote by Heisenberg? Would an atomic bomb at that time of that size actually been able to raze a city?

Well, as Heisenberg also thought that the critical mass needed was at least hundreds of times greater than in reality, and the US bomb wasn't small, I'd say that you are correct.

 

[Shangrila]

I have recently read a book about the cold war, (can't remember the title) where the point was made that the US, after the war, had very limited bomb making capability. In the early 1950's there was apparently discussion about how effective the entire US arsenal would have been at stopping a Soviet advance, and the US military knew how much fissile material was needed.

Well, that's not really accurate, or at least not the actual reason for the limited nuclear capability. The problem with the U.S. nuclear arsenal circa 1950-51 were twofold. First, the Manhattan Project has just shifted from development to mass production when the war ended, and the whole thing was shut down. There was essentially no research or production for 3 years until Soviet actions like the Berlin blockade convinced the U.S. to start producing weapons again, at which point, it was necessary to rebuild the reactors and assembly lines from scratch. However, production ballooned very quickly thereafter, with only a few dozen weapons in 1949, over a hundred in 1950, and over 3000 by 1954. The other problem was the almost complete lack of delivery capability when LeMay took over SAC, with only a handful of Silverplate B-29s, no training, no bases within range of most of the USSR, and what weapons there were in the hands of the AEC deep in the U.S. That too was corrected very quickly.

Not that that matters to the German atomic project, what with no more uranium production at all after their initial windfall.

 

[jimbob]

Thanks for that. I suspect it was my partial recall of the subject as opposed to the book's error/omission...

 

[Thomas]

Weren't the first atomic bombs developed by physicist of German heritage anyway? If so, then everybody wins. Big whoop!

Just say yes.

 

[Shangrila]

Weren't the first atomic bombs developed by physicist of German heritage anyway? If so, then everybody wins. Big whoop!

Just say yes.

German-Americans, yes. Jewish German-Americans to be more precise. So at least one group of people don't win.

 

[Thomas]

So, what have the Romans.. ehm Jews.. ever done for us..

 

[tazjet]

Well, I can't be absolutely certain that the information that you posted on the German Bomb is inaccurate, but I can be certain that the information you gave on possible delivery platforms are.

Since you profess not to know much about the nuclear debate it may pay to go off and do some heavy duty reading before taking a position.

The He-277 is similar, with only 1 experimental unit without guns, turrets, sights, navigational equipment, a full crew, or full fuel load, and certainly no bombs that could hit 47k with nitrous injection. This is what happens a lot with Nazi napkinwaffe planes. Since they never saw production or combat service, people take theoretical performance goals or the maximum performance of experimental prototypes optimized for specific tests and take them as actual combat performance.

Prototype He-277s flown & tested:

NN+QQ Heinkel He277 v1 W.Nr.535550
NE+OD Heinkel He277 v3

He-277 production aircraft flown and tested at Reichlin:

GA+QQ Heinkel He277 V9
GA+QR Heinkel He277 V10
GA+QM Heinkel He277 V26
GA+QX Heinkel He277 V18

So you're saying after flying all these aircraft Reichlin E-stelle was so incompetent they could not correctly identify performance figures for the He-277?

Incidentally I made a slight error and an author friend of mine who researches Luftwaffe archives and published 32 books on aircraft of the Luftwaffe kindly contacted me and corrected me. The service ceiling for the He-277 B-5 was 49,210 feet... Not 47,500ft

Further, this is also not mentioning the fact that the Allies were able to make intercepts between 45k and 51k as early as 1942 (of photo-recon Ju-86s) with stripped Spitfire Vs.

No they did not as the Spitfire Mark VB which you refer to had a service ceiling of just 39,200 ft.

Also most Spitfire intercepts at high altitude, guns froze and jammed.

In the case of a Ju-86 intercept by Galitzine 12 September 1942, the Ju-86R was at 41,000 feet above Southhampton when intercepted. After a short burst Galitzine's port cannon froze solid. The Junkers climbed to 43,000ft to evade the Spitfire VB.

Every time Galitzine fired a burst his aircraft yawed off target and stalled and became almost uncontrollable. Galitzine's Spitfire VB also managed to envelope itself in it's own vapour trails so thickly that Galitzine kept losing sight of the Junkers which escaped the combat.

I rather suspect the rest of your claims are of equal validity, and hopefully some expert will arrive to confirm that.

Until you can explain how a Spitfire with a service ceiling below 40,000 feet can make intercepts above 45,000ft all I can say is ditto.