Germany had the atomic bomb first

Since you profess not to know much about the nuclear debate it may pay to go off and do some heavy duty reading before taking a position.

Other people have already pointed out your questionable claims there, so I feel no need to do so, though the crap you spewed about delivery mechanisms (I notice you had no response to your lies about the do-217 or the fact neither aircraft presented has the bomb capacity to carry a nuke) strongly suggests the rest is crap as well.

So you're saying after flying all these aircraft Reichlin E-stelle was so incompetent they could not correctly identify performance figures for the He-277?

Incidentally I made a slight error and an author friend of mine who researches Luftwaffe archives and published 32 books on aircraft of the Luftwaffe kindly contacted me and corrected me. The service ceiling for the He-277 B-5 was 49,210 feet... Not 47,500ft

Since you are the one making positive claims about an aircraft that never saw service, why don't you give evidence. For instance, when, where, and under what load did a He-277 reach 49210 feet? Since that is 2000 feet higher than a B-36 featherweight can reach under combat load, forgive me for thinking it is yet more bull.

Until you can explain how a Spitfire with a service ceiling below 40,000 feet can make intercepts above 45,000ft all I can say is ditto.

This may surprise you, but aircraft do not have a fixed wall over which they cannot climb. Strip all but 2 guns out and most of the ammo, all unnecessary equipment including armor, and take off with minimal fuel, and surprise surprise, you can fly higher. Fact is, there were multiple interceptions of Ju-86 photo-recon and at least 2 shootdowns before the Germans gave up, proving that an aircraft without altitude performance superior to the Ju-86 photo recon could not be invulnerable as you claimed.
 
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Now add to this the fact that the Germans thought you needed tonnes of Uranium for critical mass, and it takes a lot longer to actually get enough material, then to try putting it into a bomb, *then* to try building a plane to carry it...

There's nothing to add to Shangrila's misinformation about Spitfire performance except pity.

He was not even aware the He-277 had been in production at Vienna with sixteen built and at least eight flown and tested by mid 1944. If you want to hang your credibility on that Jimbob be my guest.

Also you too are wrong on every count too because you think you know more than you actually do.

Heisenberg was a buffoon at best and liar at worst. At the infamous Harneck Haus conference in 1942 he was right on the money about a nuclear warhead being the size of a pineapple and you cannot say anything to explain that away.

Nor can you explain how come historian Margaret Gowing wrote in her book “Niels Bohr and Nuclear Weapons” Niels Bohr A Centenary Edition, edited by A P French & J P Kennedy (Cambridge Massachussets 1985) P.267 notes that in 1941, Houtermanns’ paper not only calculated critical mass for Plutonium but also the critical mass for U235.

If you think Gowing just made this up then perhaps you need to go to the archive library at Oak ridge and consult Houtermanns, “Zer Frage der Auslosung” (Nov 1941) pp 31,33 (Oak Ridge G-94, pp.139) 1944 reprint of this report with omissions is (Oak Ridge G-267, pp.33).

What you completely lack any insight of Jimbob is that Heisenberg was not the be all and end all of German Nuclear research.

During 1943-44 Heisenberg's entire funding from the nazis was 8,500 Reichsmarks. Manfred von Ardenne and his accolyte Fritz Houtermanns had funding of 780,000 RM whilst Dr Paul Harteck with his centrifuges had a 600,000 RM contract in April 1944 tyo build his second Uranium enrichment plant at Kandern. Dr Erich Bagge at the same time had a 265,000 RM contract to mass produce the isotope sluice. These figures tell the relative lack of importance of Heisenberg's efforts. Prof Kurt Diebner was the real genius behind Nazi Germany's nuclear bomb.

That is why an idiot like Heisenberg was rehabilitated and allowed to return to the laboratory after the war and why Diebner was virtually stricken from the history books.

German enrichment technologies were far in advance of what the Manhattan Project developed. You want proof?

Go read NARA report G371 at Oak Ridge. This was a report by Monsanto scientists Weinberg and Nordheim to A.H Compton of Manhattan project on state of Nazi nuclear science in WW2. Dated Nov 8 1945. Knock yourself out. Maybe you'll learn something?

The reports authors posed themselves several questions and then answered these for the benefit of the reader. After sifting through countless scientific reports from Nazi scientists Weinberg and Nordheim commented at page two:

“Point III. What was the state of German theory of the chain reaction?

[Answer] (C) Generally we would say their approach was in no wise inferior to ours; in some respects it was superior.”

Later they said:

VI. What bearing does this have on publication of the parts of the PPR dealing with principles of the chain reaction?

Answer: the Germans know how to design a lattice which will work. From the practical standpoint this is all that matters. The details of elegant perturbation theory or transport theory (which would be contained in Vol. III) or the details of heat transfer calculations (Vol. IV) would tell them nothing essential to the determination of lattice dimensions. They already knew how to calculate the optimum dimensions.

A question of ethics is raised by the existence of the German reports. In many cases, useful information is contained therein.

In otherwords Nazi nuclear theory was too accurate and too sensitive to be declassified for public consumption.

I could quote much more but you guys are having enough trouble comprehending the facts given to you already.

It was not lack of know how, or incorrect science which prevented Germany using the Bomb. The Manhattan Project was in many ways inferior, but better resourced. Even that imbalance of resources was not enough to prevent Germany acquiring the bomb.

And no I am neither a Nazi, nor an apologist for Nazi Germany. People who underestimate Germany's abilities are just like those who today underestimate Ahmedinejad's abilities.
 
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Well, I can't be absolutely certain that the information that you posted on the German Bomb is inaccurate, but I can be certain that the information you gave on possible delivery platforms are.

First, the only Do-217 variant that could hit 53k feet is the P variant designed for photo recon, with a third slave engine taking up the bomb bay driving compressors for the 2 main engines and it can only get that high when stripped of guns, unnecessary equipment, etc, and with nitrous injection which would blow the engines if used for more than 5 minutes. The actual bomber variants can't hit more than half that with a full bomb load. (which is not nearly enough for a nuke)

The He-277 is similar, with only 1 experimental unit without guns, turrets, sights, navigational equipment, a full crew, or full fuel load, and certainly no bombs that could hit 47k with nitrous injection. This is what happens a lot with Nazi napkinwaffe planes. Since they never saw production or combat service, people take theoretical performance goals or the maximum performance of experimental prototypes optimized for specific tests and take them as actual combat performance. An actual production He-277 with bombs will be flying well under 40k, and thus easily interceptable by every allied high altitude fighter of 1944. This is not even mentioning how the He-277's maximum (projected) bomb load is only half the weight of Little Boy, and its internal bomb bay is too small to accommodate it. Oh, it might be possible to make a bastard version that could carry a nuke with its bomb bay cut away, kind of like the projected nuke carrying Lancasters, but it will be flying low and slow and easy meat for anything around.

Further, this is also not mentioning the fact that the Allies were able to make intercepts between 45k and 51k as early as 1942 (of photo-recon Ju-86s) with stripped Spitfire Vs.


Perhaps they could have relied on a group of highly trained runners carrying it into enemy territory.
 
Other people have already pointed out your questionable claims there, so I feel no need to do so, though the crap you spewed about delivery mechanisms (I notice you had no response to your lies about the do-217 or the fact neither aircraft presented has the bomb capacity to carry a nuke) strongly suggests the rest is crap as well.

Is it that you don't feel the need to explain or you just can't tell me how a Spitfire with a ceiling of 39,200ft can intercept aircraft up to 50,000ft ?

The Do-217P was designed as a bomber. Yes it had a compressor inside the fuselage. The P stood for pressurised. The Ju-86R for example the R stood for Reconnaissance.

Now it's your turn. Perhaps you could tell us which of the three Do-217P built including aircraft registered BK+IP, SK+FW were ever shot down over England?

Times and dates please?

In fact given that the officially highest interception ever by an RAF aircraft was claimed at 43,000ft and that by a Spitfire Mark VB with a ceiling of 39,200ft, I would really like more information from you about WW2 interceptions up to 50,000ft which you referred to?

Since you are the one making positive claims about an aircraft that never saw service, why don't you give evidence. For instance, when, where, and under what load did a He-277 reach 49210 feet? Since that is 2000 feet higher than a B-36 featherweight can reach under combat load, forgive me for thinking it is yet more bull.

Certainly I can cite sources. No challenge at all. Go read Griehl, Manfred and Dressel, Joachim. Heinkel He 177-277-274, Airlife Publishing, Shrewsbury, England 1998. ISBN 1-85310-364-0.

Since I am a pilot that's no difficulty explaining the difference in ceiling between a B-36 and an He-277. Power to weight equation. B-36B model weighs 410,000lb and has a total installed 21,000hp giving 19.52lb per horsepower of thrust.

The He-277 at 98,105lb has installed thrust of 7,892hp giving 12.29lb per hp.

http://www.fronta.cz/foto/trosky-he-177-1

One He-277 aircraft was destroyed in an air raid at Cheb in Czechoslovakia if you wish to view it.

No I don't see why I should forgive you for thinking it's bull, when you could so easily just get your facts right in the first place.


This may surprise you, but aircraft do not have a fixed wall over which they cannot climb. Strip all but 2 guns out and most of the ammo, all unnecessary equipment including armor, and take off with minimal fuel, and surprise surprise, you can fly higher. Fact is, there were multiple interceptions of Ju-86 photo-recon and at least 2 shootdowns before the Germans gave up, proving that an aircraft without altitude performance superior to the Ju-86 photo recon could not be invulnerable as you claimed.

Okay well if you still want to be squashed cite these Ju-86 shoot downs to me. I'll even give you a head start before I shoot you down in flames.

One was claimed to happen over Egypt on 22 November 1942 at 49,000ft by Flying Officer Reynolds of 145 Squadron RAF in a Mark VB Spitfire. I am still waiting for your answer on a Spitfire with a service ceiling of 39,200ft.

There are three more claims and I hope you can give me the dates before I tell you why all of the claims are false.
 
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The Do-217P was designed as a bomber. Yes it had a compressor inside the fuselage. The P stood for pressurised. The Ju-86R for example the R stood for Reconnaissance.

Now it's your turn. Perhaps you could tell us which of the three Do-217P built including aircraft registered BK+IP, SK+FW were ever shot down over England?

Times and dates please?

So I see you've withdrawn your claim that the do-217K could hit 50k+. And are now claiming that the P variant could carry bombs because it was designed as a bomber despite admitting that a compressor takes up the bomb bay. And some superfluous factoids as well. Well done.

Certainly I can cite sources. No challenge at all. Go read Griehl, Manfred and Dressel, Joachim. Heinkel He 177-277-274, Airlife Publishing, Shrewsbury, England 1998. ISBN 1-85310-364-0.

You realize that random namedropping doesn't count as a citation right? I'm still waiting for when, where, and under what load did a He-277 hit 49k, and the citation for that claim.

Since I am a pilot that's no difficulty explaining the difference in ceiling between a B-36 and an He-277. Power to weight equation. B-36B model weighs 410,000lb and has a total installed 21,000hp giving 19.52lb per horsepower of thrust.

The He-277 at 98,105lb has installed thrust of 7,892hp giving 12.29lb per hp.

Somehow, I think you are lying since a real pilot would never give weight per horsepower rather than the standard power to weight ratio, or give installed thrust in horsepower. Certainly, no real pilot would think power developed at takeoff for a piston engine means a damn thing for performance at altitude.

Then there's the ridiculousness of thinking the ratio of max takeoff weight to hp means anything. Not to mention the dishonesty using the power of the B-36B (without jetpods) with the max takeoff weight of the B-36J. Or the far more hilarious inability to do math that results in 3800hp*6 giving 21000 hp or that 98105/7892 gives 12.29 instead of 12.43.

But let's take your argument seriously for a moment (difficult, I know). The B-50 has an max takeoff weight to hp ratio of 12.35, so a bit better. Yet it tops out at 39k. Oh snap.

One He-277 aircraft was destroyed in an air raid at Cheb in Czechoslovakia if you wish to view it.

No I don't see why I should forgive you for thinking it's bull, when you could so easily just get your facts right in the first place.

Strange that you would 1) say something entirely irrelevant, and 2) claim that it was a He-277 when the source directly says 177.

Okay well if you still want to be squashed cite these Ju-86 shoot downs to me. I'll even give you a head start before I shoot you down in flames.

One was claimed to happen over Egypt on 22 November 1942 at 49,000ft by Flying Officer Reynolds of 145 Squadron RAF in a Mark VB Spitfire. I am still waiting for your answer on a Spitfire with a service ceiling of 39,200ft.

There are three more claims and I hope you can give me the dates before I tell you why all of the claims are false.

Well, since you've oh so cleverly proven that the He-277 tops out at under 39k... But why don't you start by telling me why the claim that you've already given is false. Since you know, a single instance proves you wrong.

Perhaps they could have relied on a group of highly trained runners carrying it into enemy territory.

Lol, yeah.:D Though seriously, how the Nazis would have used a bomb if they had one was already mentioned. Buried in Berlin and going off as the Red Army takes it, fits in perfectly with late war Hitler and that it didn't happen...
 
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Heisenberg was a buffoon at best and liar at worst. At the infamous Harneck Haus conference in 1942 he was right on the money about a nuclear warhead being the size of a pineapple and you cannot say anything to explain that away.


Do you have references that he got it right in 1942? Because it seems that in 1940 Heisenberg wrongly calculated the critical mass of Uranium, by 1942 came up with the right answer, and then by 1945 had reverted to his original (wrong) calculation.

link

Powers and Frayn assert Heisenberg never calculated the critical mass of a U235 nuclear bomb. In fact, as my book Heisenberg and the Nazi Atomic Bomb Project (University of California Press, 1998) proves, Heisenberg had made such a calculation in early 1940 using the statistical technique known as the random walk and concluded that the critical mass was of the order of tons of U235. He did not simply dream this up as Frayn’s argument insists, but calculated it using nuclear data. The calculation is rehearsed no less than three times in the transcripts of the taped conversations between Heisenberg and other German physicists interned at Farm Hall in England in August 1945. It was this gross overestimate of the amount of U235 required for a bomb that prevented Heisenberg from driving ahead at full speed with the uranium bomb project.

I do know that this info came from fairly recently declassified transcripts, so are probably the best guide to Heisenberg's knowledge in 1945. He had no reason to lie whilst interned in Farm Hall, indeed it would have been in his interest to overestimate his knowledge.

I have read people who said that the German atomic scientists were shocked and surprised when they were told of the dropping of the US atom bombs...

This suggests that they had considered it a surprising event - possibly because they thought it needed tonnes of Uranium.

The Do-217P was designed as a bomber. Yes it had a compressor inside the fuselage. The P stood for pressurised. The Ju-86R for example the R stood for Reconnaissance.

I know very little about German wonder weapons, but having used google have come across this:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Dornier%20Do%20217.htm

The remaining variants include the very interesting Do 217P, of which the first Do 217P VI prototype was flown during June 1942. Developed as a high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft with a pressurised cabin, it was powered by two 1,750 hp (1305 kW) DB 603B engines which were boosted by pressurisation was also a feature of a medium bomber which two-stage supercharger driven by a 1,475 hp (1100 kW) DB 605T engine mounted within the bomb bay. Armament consisted of four MG 81 machine-guns, and one Rb 20/30 and two Rb 75/30 cameras were installed in the three Do 217P-O pre-production aircraft.

Wouldn't that reduce the payload somewhat?
 
tazjet,

Have you seen the Military Channel's documentary "Mission for Mussolini"?

If so, your opinion please.
 
Anyone have any mass figures or dimensions for the DB 605T engine used in the DO-217P?

I'd like to know how much bomb bay would have been left (if it wasn't just to have been used for photo-reconnaissance).
 

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