Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Hi Rose,
You have "helped" me in the past,
so if Fulcanelli decides to not help me with the link, I will hit you up!
I appreciate your help, for I am just a guy, as you are a gal, who is interested in the particuler brutal murder case of a young woman, who was raped and stabbed to death, who the authorities decided that her woman housemate, carryin' a big ol' knife in her purse for protection, decided 1 night to murder, participate, and/or watch her housemate and friend get raped and die a brutal death!

Happy Monday on the East Coast!:)
RWVBWL

I will be out the rest of the day so here is my docstoc page

http://www.docstoc.com/profile/rosemontague

The google translations of the Knox Motivations were a real pain. I had to remove some of the seals, signs, and sigs and split it up as the file was to large for google to translate. Part of part 1 is repeated on part 2, they did not match up perfectly for some reason and I got tired of messing with it. The Italian version is there as well as 1 document.
 
bugged

Wow!
Thanks for posting that, halides1.
I feel the need to read more about the recorded conversations done prior to the arrest of both Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox. It is, as you mentioned, "difficult to understand why they would not record Amanda's interrogations.", and might I add, Raffaele's also.
Hmmm...
RWVBWL

RWVBWL,

On page 140 in Candace Dempsey’s book, she describes the police listening in on Amanda’s conversation with Filomena on 5 November. On pages 125-126 she discusses the conversation that Amanda and Raffaele had in the bugged room on 4 November. They apparently discussed people Amanda knew, like Shaky and Juve, but they switched back and forth from Italian to English, making it hard to follow. On page 125 Ms. Dempsey mentions that there had been previous phone conversations between AK and RS that were tapped. So ILE listened to and recorded Amanda and Raffaele talking about pizza and her relatives but they did not record her interrogations.
 
RWVBWL,

On page 140 in Candace Dempsey’s book, she describes the police listening in on Amanda’s conversation with Filomena on 5 November. On pages 125-126 she discusses the conversation that Amanda and Raffaele had in the bugged room on 4 November. They apparently discussed people Amanda knew, like Shaky and Juve, but they switched back and forth from Italian to English, making it hard to follow. On page 125 Ms. Dempsey mentions that there had been previous phone conversations between AK and RS that were tapped. So ILE listened to and recorded Amanda and Raffaele talking about pizza and her relatives but they did not record her interrogations.


And...this is significant because?
 
Yeah, the 'appendicitis attack' that meant she couldn't even get out of bed...but then suddenly could when the judge said 'no' :)

Yes, she was extremely uncomfortable. She did what she had to do for her client.

Your tabloid style sources can spin it any way they want.
 
And that was what the recent debate was about Fulcanelli, the fact that the police do not have to record with audio and/orvideo devices, and therefore they are still lagging in terms of useage of modern equipment to enhance their investigatory techniques, and protect the public, and themselves better from false charges.
Someday, I would think, the widespread useage of audio and/or video recording devices will become SOP, until then, it's the old traditional method of just remembering what the witness or suspect said and writing it down afterwards...

Sorry RWVBWL,

The recent debate most definitely NOT about what should be done. Everyone seems to agree that recording interviews would be best practices for police in all jurisdictions.

The debate was about how to interpret the lack of a recording of the Knox interview. Some here have opined that lack of such is evidence of premeditated malicious intent or a deliberate coverup on the behalf of the police.

Nobody has yet (or I missed it) provided any evidence that recording was required or standard practice for the Perugia police at the time, so the most rational explanation is that there is no recording because it wasn't recorded because recording it was not standard practice.
 
Yeah, she craaawled all the way into court, what a trooper! ;)

Do me a favour!

Lovely stuff! Compassion eh? Gotta love it! Who'd have thought that Fulcanelli had seen a medical report of Bongiorno's condition on that day? He clearly must have done so, in order for him to confidently state that she was deliberately malingering (for whatever reason).

It's just this sort of argument from a position of assumed certainty that I so love about some posters on here!
 
Amanda's interviews and Raffaele's diary

First of all, Halides, they were witnesses on the 4th. Second, tapping phones doesn,t mean you're a suspect. It is usually done to glean information. How do we know? Maybe Rudi calling asking Amanda to give him an alibi? What does her screaming have anything to do with them *knowing* she was coming in? Amanda herself said she went along, because she was scared of being alone. She was also screaming when she was next to the knife drawer. Yep. Raffaele was being told a lot of rubbish. According to Raffaele, however, he said it was AMANDA telling him rubbish.

Capealadin,

Rudy was not even on the ILE radar screen until at least a week later. With respect to the screaming, I can understand your confusion, so I need to explain why I included this. Dr. Giobbi testified that he wanted to bring them in together. Some commenters here at JREF disputed my account, saying that the police interrogated them separately; therefore, they were not following Dr. Giobbi’s orders. I did not respond at the time, but will do so now: Dr. Giobbi was there that night, and he was close enough to hear her scream. For that reason among others, it is difficult to believe that they were not following his orders. BTW, Amanda mentioned to Laura that the police yelled at her in an interview prior to the night of 5 November.

You are being selective with respect to Raffaele’s diary. He also wrote, “then the day after Amanda repeated to me that if she had not been with me at this time she would be dead. Thinking and reconstructing, it seems to me that she always remained with me, the only thing I do not remember exactly is when she left in the early evening for a few minutes. I am convinced that she could not have killed Meredith and then return home.”
 
Lovely stuff! Compassion eh? Gotta love it! Who'd have thought that Fulcanelli had seen a medical report of Bongiorno's condition on that day? He clearly must have done so, in order for him to confidently state that she was deliberately malingering (for whatever reason).

It's just this sort of argument from a position of assumed certainty that I so love about some posters on here!


Compassion? No. But I'll clap. just like I'll clap a trapeze artist or any artist at work.
 
halides1 said:
Rudy was not even on the ILE radar screen until at least a week later. With respect to the screaming, I can understand your confusion, so I need to explain why I included this. Dr. Giobbi testified that he wanted to bring them in together. Some commenters here at JREF disputed my account, saying that the police interrogated them separately; therefore, they were not following Dr. Giobbi’s orders. I did not respond at the time, but will do so now: Dr. Giobbi was there that night, and he was close enough to hear her scream. For that reason among others, it is difficult to believe that they were not following his orders. BTW, Amanda mentioned to Laura that the police yelled at her in an interview prior to the night of 5 November.


Okay, Giobbi was close enough to hear Amanda's scream. Did Amanda hear Giobbi shouting orders and direction? (sound is a two way phenomenon).

Amanda mentioned to Laura what? Cite?
 
Sorry RWVBWL,

The recent debate most definitely NOT about what should be done. Everyone seems to agree that recording interviews would be best practices for police in all jurisdictions.

The debate was about how to interpret the lack of a recording of the Knox interview. Some here have opined that lack of such is evidence of premeditated malicious intent or a deliberate coverup on the behalf of the police.

Nobody has yet (or I missed it) provided any evidence that recording was required or standard practice for the Perugia police at the time, so the most rational explanation is that there is no recording because it wasn't recorded because recording it was not standard practice.

Ah but I might add here that the argument is more nuanced than that. I think that many people might agree that it would be unnecessary (and not required in law) to record Amanda Knox's interrogations if she were purely regarded as a witness at that time. Although, even here, the fact that this was a very high-profile case with international dimensions, and the fact that Knox was being questioned in a police station with recording equipment right at hand, could lead one to ask why the police wouldn't record the interrogations anyhow (after all, what did they have to lose by doing so, if they were behaving properly - and on the other hand, I'd argue that they had a potentially significant amount to gain, owing to increased transparency and accuracy).

But, to me, the more important point is this: why was Knox still being treated as a "witness" after around 00.30-01.00 on the 6th (i.e. in the hour or so leading up to the "confession/accusation")? After all, there's a fair amount of evidence that the police had bugged her phone since about the 4th November, and they'd also apparently listened in on a number of private conversations of hers. In addition, by 00.30 (or so) on the 6th, they had Sollecito's alibi modification to add to their suspicion of Knox, and they also had what they believed to be an incriminating text message from Knox to Lumumba arranging a meeting on the murder night.

I've already previously shown that the European Criminal Bar Association believes that it's far from uncommon for Italian police to deliberately keep a person under "witness" status - long after the police actually believe that person to be a suspect - in order to keep lawyers out of the interrogation process (and also in order that the police don't have to stop their involvement and hand over to a prosecuting magistrate).

I believe that this may have been precisely what happened with Amanda Knox. I believe that Knox should properly have been declared a suspect by 01.00 on the 6th at the latest, and read her rights (including her right to an attorney) at that point. Under Italian police codes, the police interrogation would then have had to stop, and only the prosecuting magistrate (here, Mignini) could have continued the interrogation (in the presence of Knox's designated attorney). And it all would have been audio recorded.

If what I suggest above had happened, then not only would the police interrogation of Knox have stopped long before the contentious "confession/allegation", but also any interrogation where she was in any way accused of involvement in the crime would have been captured on audio tape.

And that itself raises another key issue: as things stand, it's important to note that the police pretty much have to say that Knox's "confession/accusation" came out of a clear blue sky - i.e. during routine and non-accusatory police "witness" questioning. Because for the police to say that her breakdown and confession etc came after she was repeatedly accused of involvement in the murder would clearly imply that the police had considered her a suspect by that point. And if they had considered her a suspect by that point, they shouldn't still even have been interrogating her (much less in the absence of her being read her rights). QED.....
 
Okay, Giobbi was close enough to hear Amanda's scream. Did Amanda hear Giobbi shouting orders and direction? (sound is a two way phenomenon).

Amanda mentioned to Laura what? Cite?

Why would Giobbi have been shouting orders and direction (let alone at the same volume as a woman screaming and sobbing as she "remembered" a bloody murder)? IS there any evidence at all that Giobbi shouted orders and directions that night? To use a well-worn phrase: cite?
 
Ah but I might add here that the argument is more nuanced than that. I think that many people might agree that it would be unnecessary (and not required in law) to record Amanda Knox's interrogations if she were purely regarded as a witness at that time. Although, even here, the fact that this was a very high-profile case with international dimensions, and the fact that Knox was being questioned in a police station with recording equipment right at hand, could lead one to ask why the police wouldn't record the interrogations anyhow (after all, what did they have to lose by doing so, if they were behaving properly - and on the other hand, I'd argue that they had a potentially significant amount to gain, owing to increased transparency and accuracy).

But, to me, the more important point is this: why was Knox still being treated as a "witness" after around 00.30-01.00 on the 6th (i.e. in the hour or so leading up to the "confession/accusation")? After all, there's a fair amount of evidence that the police had bugged her phone since about the 4th November, and they'd also apparently listened in on a number of private conversations of hers. In addition, by 00.30 (or so) on the 6th, they had Sollecito's alibi modification to add to their suspicion of Knox, and they also had what they believed to be an incriminating text message from Knox to Lumumba arranging a meeting on the murder night.

I've already previously shown that the European Criminal Bar Association believes that it's far from uncommon for Italian police to deliberately keep a person under "witness" status - long after the police actually believe that person to be a suspect - in order to keep lawyers out of the interrogation process (and also in order that the police don't have to stop their involvement and hand over to a prosecuting magistrate).

I believe that this may have been precisely what happened with Amanda Knox. I believe that Knox should properly have been declared a suspect by 01.00 on the 6th at the latest, and read her rights (including her right to an attorney) at that point. Under Italian police codes, the police interrogation would then have had to stop, and only the prosecuting magistrate (here, Mignini) could have continued the interrogation (in the presence of Knox's designated attorney). And it all would have been audio recorded.

If what I suggest above had happened, then not only would the police interrogation of Knox have stopped long before the contentious "confession/allegation", but also any interrogation where she was in any way accused of involvement in the crime would have been captured on audio tape.

And that itself raises another key issue: as things stand, it's important to note that the police pretty much have to say that Knox's "confession/accusation" came out of a clear blue sky - i.e. during routine and non-accusatory police "witness" questioning. Because for the police to say that her breakdown and confession etc came after she was repeatedly accused of involvement in the murder would clearly imply that the police had considered her a suspect by that point. And if they had considered her a suspect by that point, they shouldn't still even have been interrogating her (much less in the absence of her being read her rights). QED.....

What evidence did they have against her before she accused Lumumba?
 
they asked for lawyers

LJ,

Amanda asked whether she needed a lawyer but was told that it would only make things worse. Raffaele asked for a lawyer and also asked to speak with his father but was refused. This is described in Ms. Dempsey's book.
 
What evidence did they have against her before she accused Lumumba?

RS's change of alibi support, and the text message which the police assumed (incorrectly) showed AK planning to meet Lumumba on the night of the murder (something which AK had already "suspiciously" denied).

And, in addition, the very fact that the police were (apparently) tapping her phone and monitoring her conversations are in and of themselves the acts of a police force who view a person as much more than a mere "witness", wouldn't you say?
 
LJ,

Amanda asked whether she needed a lawyer but was told that it would only make things worse. Raffaele asked for a lawyer and also asked to speak with his father but was refused. This is described in Ms. Dempsey's book.

I've read that too. If that's true, then its implications aren't good for the police. After all, if Knox (or Sollecito) were asking for a lawyer, this can only really mean that they felt under pressure and under suspicion. I'm struggling to think of a scenario where they would have started asking for a lawyer other than if they were being directly or indirectly accused by the police at that point. And if the police really said that lawyering up would "make things worse", that might need a lot of answering...

I'm guessing, however, that all this is AK's (and RS's) word against that of the police. How unfortunate that the interviews weren't recorded.
 
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Anyone who pleads "not guilty" in a criminal trial who is then found guilty could be prosecuted for perjury (and possibly also for slander/calumny, depending on how they had tried to defend themselves), if one follows your argument to its logical conclusion.

Interestingly, under Italy's system, defendants are explicitly allowed to lie during the trial.

Oddly the result of this is that Knox's statements during the trial automatically have less credibility to them _even when she agrees with the prosecution on something which is damaging to her defense_!
 
RS's change of alibi support,

How is that evidence that Knox committed a crime?

and the text message which the police assumed (incorrectly) showed AK planning to meet Lumumba on the night of the murder (something which AK had already "suspiciously" denied).

How is arranging to meet someone unknown evidence of crime?

And, in addition, the very fact that the police were (apparently) tapping her phone and monitoring her conversations are in and of themselves the acts of a police force who view a person as much more than a mere "witness", wouldn't you say?

If they only did that with AK and RS it indicates they were suspicious. How is that evidence either of them committed a crime?
 
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