Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Fulcanelli said:
Oh yeah, you mean the 'speech'. They all made speeches. And the only reasons that was made on Amanda's part is because:

a) Their fates are entwined...there is a case for saying they 'need' each other

b) Amanda's defence didn't attempt to throw Raffaele under the bus

And it should be pointed out, Raffaele's team's decision to defend Amanda was made 'at the last minute'. It was touch and go...they were going to throw her under the bus. Unfortunately (for Raffaele), Bongiourno's little stunt at claiming illness didn't give their team a rescheduling to provide their closing arguments 'after' Amanda's team, as was intended. They had to stick with the schedule and go first. Lucky for you ;)
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You mean appendicitis attack?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Your reporters that write bad books are not good sources.
 
LondonJohn said:
Nobody needs to specifically read the Massei report to know what Stefanoni said in the trial. Stefanoni's testimony is already part of the trial record. It's been a matter of public record since she gave testimony in the trial in May 2009, and it has been well translated and reported. Here's one small example, out of many, of the contemporaneous reporting of her testimony and her cross-examination:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7656872&page=1

It's not unique to the hallowed Massei report. What is unique to the report is how the jurors chose to interpret and believe that evidence. Nothing more.

Just because PMF zealously believes that it's engaging in some sort of heroic labour of truth-seeking in translating the jury's deliberation/sentencing report doesn't change the fact that nothing new will come from the report in terms of evidence or testimony.
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Again, pish. And this post can only have been written by someone that has not read the report. You cannot even begin to conceive of the detail of Dr Stefanoni's testimony provided in the report that wasn't even 'touched' on in media reports. Some people will be feeling rather silly about these types of comments when they actually read the report...if they ever bother that is.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
The quotes were from LondonJohn
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I think it's fair to say that Fulcanelli has.....erm......."something on his mind" right now. Maybe we should write off his behaviour today to something we don't know about, and just move on...

Attack the argument, not the arguer and do not derail the thread with personalizations.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson
 
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Amazer said:
I curious though why you think a new judge is likely to grant the request for further testing. Not that I'm opposed to it, but in addition to the resulting delays in the trial itself, what does the defense think additional testing will show?
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It should also be noted, the prosecution never opposed any additional testing, where it was possible to do so. It was the judge who rejected the requests (for which he outlined his reasons).
 
RWVBWL said:
Hi LondonJohn,
As a guy who originally thought that Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox
were guilty from reading the early media reports, BUT who casually followed the trial thru website reading,
I found much to believe that "reasonable doubt" existed in this particular case, and I was suprised, dismayed, and saddened when the guilty verdicts were given and Raffaele Sollecito and Amanda Knox DID NOT get to go home, yet...

I believe this case has so much room for reasonable doubt that the juror's MUST have just been towing the line, so to speak, for the media and the prosecution had already convicted Amanda "Foxy" Knox and Raffaele Sollecito before the trial even started...

Can you imagine the UPROAR in Italy of they had been found innocent?
Hmmm...
RWVBWL
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Hey RW. What an interesting discussion we're all having here today! Looks like someone has blown a fuse :p

I'd agree that this is certainly one way of looking at things. Strangely, my thinking in this case evolved along very similar lines to yours. I only really started looking at it a few months ago, and my initial feelings (coupled with my passing prior knowledge obtained via media reports at the time of the trial) was that AK and RS were correctly convicted. But the more I read - and the more I realised that there were incredibly entrenched camps on both extreme sides of this case who were hellbent on swaying "neutrals" towards their side of the debate - I felt that I'd started to spot potential areas of concern around their convictions.

And so I (and, I believe you) arrive today with what we feel to be a plausible belief that the convictions might not be safe. To us, there seem to be many very real areas where prosecution evidence might be successfully challenged by the defence. And we look forward to the convictions being rigorously tested in a court of appeal. And if our concerns are real and justified, then there would appear to be a very significant possibility of these verdicts being overturned before too long. We'll just have to wait and see, I guess.
 
LondonJohn said:
No, it's not. In every criminal trial, the prosecution offers evidence showing that the defendants are guilty.. Otherwise the prosecution would have no case to present. And in no way does this mean that the defence have to (or would choose to) offer an alternative scenario based on their clients' innocence.
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Which they have done...effectively.

LondonJohn said:
I would repeat - once again - that the defence does not have to prove their clients' innocence in order to achieve a "not guilty" verdict. I am bolding this because I still truly don't believe that Fulcanelli (or indeed some others) understand this vital point. The defence merely has to challenge the prosecution's case to the level of raising reasonable doubt. And if the defence feel that they have done a sufficient job of raising reasonable doubt in the prosecutions case, then they have every right to feel aggrieved if the jury votes for guilt. To repeat: it's not bad defence practice to purely concentrate on attacking the prosecution's case, without offering an alternative scenario based on your client's innocence.
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Which is all semantics, which you seem to enjoy.
 
Fulcanelli said:
Again, pish. And this post can only have been written by someone that has not read the report. You cannot even begin to conceive of the detail of Dr Stefanoni's testimony provided in the report that wasn't even 'touched' on in media reports. Some people will be feeling rather silly about these types of comments when they actually read the report...if they ever bother that is.[/QUOTE]
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Hi Fulcanelli,
I LUV to read,
bust out the report already, buddy!
Thanks, RWVBWL

PS- Thanks Fiona for the Village Voice link, it was an interesting and informative read!
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Fulcanelli said:
Which they have done...effectively.



Which is all semantics, which you seem to enjoy.
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I was going to implore you to take a break for your own reputational protection - but that would probably come across as arrogant and condescending, so I will refrain from saying that. However, neither do I feel that I need to reply directly to this "argument"...
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Your post of the translation proved nothing. It showed the judge's opinion. nothing more.
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You don't sweep it under the carpet as 'opinion'. It's not 'opinion', it's a JUDGEMENT. I suggest you learn the difference and learn it fast. It provided the established evidence and put that evidence in a logical framework.
 
RWVBWL said:
Fulcanelli said:
Again, pish. And this post can only have been written by someone that has not read the report. You cannot even begin to conceive of the detail of Dr Stefanoni's testimony provided in the report that wasn't even 'touched' on in media reports. Some people will be feeling rather silly about these types of comments when they actually read the report...if they ever bother that is.[/QUOTE]
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Hi Fulcanelli,
I LUV to read,
bust out the report already, buddy!
Thanks, RWVBWL

PS- Thanks Fiona for the Village Voice link, it was an interesting and informative read!
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Sure, do you do Italian?
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LondonJohn said:
I was going to implore you to take a break for your own reputational protection - but that would probably come across as arrogant and condescending, so I will refrain from saying that. However, neither do I feel that I need to reply directly to this "argument"...
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Ego is a concern for others, not for me. I care only for the facts and the truth.
 
Fulcanelli said:
RWVBWL said:
Sure, do you do Italian?
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Hi again Fulcanelli,
Actually, I DO have a few Italian surfer guy and gal friends,
whose 1st language is their own native Italian, who would probably "help me"
to translate+read the report for my own knowledge,
since they do indeed find it curious, as does Frank from Perugia Shock,
that a surfer from Los Angeles, California is interested, and has read much,
on this particular rape+brutal murder of a young American college womans' housemate...
Bust out that report, PLEASE!
And if you want to make it easier for me, do it in English!
Of that, I doubt you will though...
RWVBWL
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Bruce Fisher said:
You mean appendicitis attack?
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Yeah, the 'appendicitis attack' that meant she couldn't even get out of bed...but then suddenly could when the judge said 'no' :)
 
RWVBWL said:
Fulcanelli said:
Hi again Fulcanelli,
Actually, I DO have a few Italian surfer guy and gal friends,
whose 1st language is their own native Italian, who would probably "help me"
to translate+read the report for my own knowledge,
since they do indeed find it curious, as does Frank from Perugia Shock, that a surfer from Los Angeles, California is interested, and has read much, on this particular rape+brutal murder of a young American college womans' housemate...
Bust out that report, PLEASE!
And if you want to make it easier for me, do it in English!
Of that, I doubt you will though...
RWVBWL
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It's great to hear you have Italian speaking friends :) You'll find the Report on the Seattle PI for download, posted by Andrea Vogt, then ...good luck :)
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Fulcanelli said:
RWVBWL said:
It's great to hear you have Italian speaking friends :) You'll find the Report on the Seattle PI for download, posted by Andrea Vogt, then ...good luck :)
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That one is an image file, pdf, if I remember right and is hard to work with. I have it on a word doc if you pm me your email. I also have it and the google english version on my docstoc page.
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Fulcanelli said:
RWVBWL said:
It's great to hear you have Italian speaking friends :) You'll find the Report on the Seattle PI for download, posted by Andrea Vogt, then ...good luck :)
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Hi Fulcanelli,
Do you have a particular link?
I do share info links when I pass it onward...
Come on buddy, give me the link,
or do I have to assume your a/an "donkey", as Bobthe"" is also, hahaha!
Lotsa LUV, Fulcanelli from the West Coast of the U.S.A.!
RWVBWL
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RoseMontague said:
Fulcanelli said:
That one is an image file, pdf, if I remember right and is hard to work with. I have it on a word doc if you pm me your email. I also have it and the google english version on my docstoc page.
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Hi Rose,
You have "helped" me in the past,
so if Fulcanelli decides to not help me with the link, I will hit you up!
I appreciate your help, for I am just a guy, as you are a gal, who is interested in the particuler brutal murder case of a young woman, who was raped and stabbed to death, who the authorities decided that her woman housemate, carryin' a big ol' knife in her purse for protection, decided 1 night to murder, participate, and/or watch her housemate and friend get raped and die a brutal death!

Happy Monday on the East Coast!:)
RWVBWL
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