Merged Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

So these guys conspired to lie to everyone because of...five months' difference? Why not just wait it out and let him go three months from his "due date?"

This makes no sense.


Uh, it kind of does, actually.

I don't think this is a case of "the Scots were dupes", or that this was done for business and oil deals. It was the Scottish government who released Megrahi, and they had no interest in BP oil deals. Not only that, the vitriolic hatred of the Labour party (UK government) for the SNP (Scottish government) would pretty much dictate that the UK government wouldn't even ask.

You're all forgetting about the appeal.

Megrahi didn't do it. He had a bloody alibi, for God's sake. He had a better alibi than I have for that day. Putting it simply, and leaving out the CTs because you don't need any CTs to see the miscarriage of justice in this case, the judges decided that because he had been identified by a Maltese shopkeeper as having bought some blast-damaged clothes that were found at the crash site, then somehow, who knows how, he must have smuggled the bomb into the aviation baggage system from where he happened to be that morning.

This despite a shed-load of evidence showing that he had no opportunity to smuggle anything past security that morning, and that in fact there was no unaccounted-for or unaccompanied bag on the flight in question. And that all the bags which transferred into the second feeder flight at Frankfurt (the route this unaccompanied bag was supposed to have taken) were x-rayed and no radios were seen in any of the suitcases. And despite some very suggestive evidence of a genuinely mysterious orphan suitcase having gone on to Maid of the Seas at Heathrow, before the Frankfurt flight landed.

It doesn't have to be a big conspiracy. They were desperate to get someone for this atrocity, and if that someone happened to implicate the pariah state of Libya rather than Iran, which could be awfully embarrassing in geo-political terms, then I guess that's a bonus. There was just enough coincidental and circumstantial evidence to convince the judges to make that huge leap of assumption and decide that somehow, God only knows how, Megrahi had spirited that bag on to KM180 at Luqa early that morning.

It very much hung on the identification made by the shopkeeper (Gauci) though. If that hadn't been there, then the rest of the evidence simply goes up in smoke. The trouble was, Gauci's evidence was wildly unreliable both as to the appearance of the purchaser and the day of the purchase. He was changing his story to suit what he figured the police wanted him to say - and then, relatively recently, it was revealed why. He was paid £2 million for his evidence, and his brother Paul, who coached him, was paid $1 million. The brothers are now living in luxury in Australia.

Take out that identification and not only don't you have a case, you have to look at the watertight evidence that no rogue bag went on to KM180, and realise that Megrahi actually had an alibi.

Megrahi applied for leave to appeal in 2002 or 2003, and the appeal didn't get underway until April 2009. There was an inordinate amount of foot-dragging, including a huge legal wrangle about some top-secret document or documents the defence wanted produced, which the government refused to release even after the court ordered them to be produced. They went to extreme and unprecedented lengths to keep this material under wraps, and nobody really knows what that was all about.

Once the appeal got started, some of the identification evidence was heard, then it was adjourned until November 2009 - even though the defendant was known to be terminally ill. Before that date was reached, of course, he was released and the appeal was withdrawn.

The reluctance of governments of all political colours to have this appeal go ahead is quite striking. Whether this is simply extreme reluctance to see Megrahi acquitted, and thus have to face all the criticism for not having solved the highest-profile Scottish case of all time, or whether it's anything to do with the top-secret documents that mustn't be seen by anyone at all costs, I have no idea.

I'm merely pretty sure that the release was all about getting the appeal withdrawn, so that everyone could go on fondly believing the case was solved, and nobody was going to have to disclose material they didn't want to disclose. The Justice Secretary visited Megrahi in prison one day, he withdrew his appeal the next, and the release was announced the day after that.

If that hadn't happened - well, November is seven months ago now. Who knows what we might now know about that incident that we didn't know before. But the appeal was stopped in August, before we got that far.

So everybody is happy. Megrahi gets to go home. This delights the Libyans as well as Megrahi himself, everybody can keep believing the case was solved, nobody is going to be embarrassed about all the compensation money that was paid on completely mistaken premises, nobody has to disclose embarrassing material, and the UK government gets its business deals and oil contracts.

Too bad if you would quite like to know who actually did bomb that plane.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
I'm merely pretty sure that the release was all about getting the appeal withdrawn, so that everyone could go on fondly believing the case was solved, and nobody was going to have to disclose material they didn't want to disclose.

But what would have happened if he didn't have cancer?
 
Goodness knows. I've said before that if it was actually possible to infect someone with prostate cancer, I'd suspect Kenny MacAskill (or his predecessor, since the diagnosis was actually made in 2008) of doing just that. It's the most convenient diagnosis since Socrates swallowed the hemlock.

Since it's not actually possible to infect anyone with prostate cancer, and since (despite Karol Sikora being pretty dodgy) I don't seriously doubt the diagnosis, I fall back on the procrastination theory.

Keep dragging your heels and putting off the moment when something has to happen, and hope that either something handy comes up, or you're out of office before the proverbial hits the fan.

In this case, something handy came up.

Roolfe.
 
Can you name one in Scotland or England that received the same medical evaluations and doctors as Megrahi before release? Do Scotish and English inmates usually have three specialists (including a foreign one) determine their condition for a compassionate release? Yes, this guy was treated differently because he was a Muslim and killed Americans....he was treated BETTER than your average dying Scotish or English inmate.

No he was not. He was looked at by the SPS medical people and they passed the info to the relevant people. The decision was based on that. The other guys inspections were not taken into account.

It would be interesting to know on average how long Scottish and English inmates lived after their compassionate releases.

You could go and have a look. I bet they did not all last exactly 3 months though eh?
 
Last edited:
No, you should treat him differently because he killed a bunch of people. I would say the same thing if he were white and no American died. If any other mass murderers have been released from prison in Scotland or England just because they got sick, that just further proves how stupid the law is.

It's our law. Deal with it and stop crying.
 
Heres some info.

England and Wales- The document says: "Early release may be considered where a prisoner is suffering from a terminal illness and death is likely to occur soon. There are no set time limits, but three months may be considered to be an appropriate period".

In Scotland, the regulations are set out in the Prisoner and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993, which also says a life expectancy of less than three months would appear appropriate.

Details published on the Scottish Government website showed 38 prisoners have been granted compassionate release since 1993.

And here is one example of a guy living near nine months.

The Lockerbie bomber has now lived longer than any of the four other convicted murderers released on compassionate grounds in Scotland, it has emerged.

Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi, 58, who has terminal cancer, was freed on August 20 last year. Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, said that medical reports had shown he had three months or less to live.

Despite that prognosis, the Libyan has now been alive for nine months, outliving Kevin McGhee, 33, who was released in August 2002 before dying two days short of nine months later. McGhee was granted compassionate release because his cancer required 24-hour nursing care. Ministers have been able to release prisoners on compassionate grounds since 1993.
 
dtugg said:
No, you should treat him differently because he killed a bunch of people. I would say the same thing if he were white and no American died. If any other mass murderers have been released from prison in Scotland or England just because they got sick, that just further proves how stupid the law is.


It's our law. Deal with it and stop crying.


What he said.

Actually, I think the fact that he didn't kill a bunch of people (or not that bunch of people anyway, and no others that we know about), and that this was quite obviously going to be confirmed by the court if the appeal had gone through, sways me a bit.

But that's not really the point. It's our law, and our law states that the nature of the offence isn't taken into account when deciding on compassionate release. You can disagree all you like, but it's our law and we're keeping it that way.

Rolfe.
 
What he said.

Actually, I think the fact that he didn't kill a bunch of people (or not that bunch of people anyway, and no others that we know about), and that this was quite obviously going to be confirmed by the court if the appeal had gone through, sways me a bit.

But that's not really the point. It's our law, and our law states that the nature of the offence isn't taken into account when deciding on compassionate release. You can disagree all you like, but it's our law and we're keeping it that way.

Rolfe.

Thanks for popping in, Rolfe. But So far we've been avoiding the easy way of justifying the release (by which it WASN'T justified, of course). After exploring a bit just the details of compassionnate release vs. social norms, etc. this really did probably fit best in current/social issues.

Funk thanks for the specifics. Looking forward to Alt+F4's findings if possible. I've still got not much to add. I was mostly here to hear.
 
I popped in by accident, because I saw a thread on healthcare reform headlined. I don't really come to US politics since they split the forums.

The debate has been surprisingly more restrained and rational than it was in the early months, and I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps most of those who were really incensed but hadn't taken time to look at the specifics have just moved on?

I was originally mistaken about Karol Sikora. I either misremembered or was misinformed, and thought he was a highly respected expert. I realise now he isn't, and he does fit the description of a "hired gun" who will advance the argument desired by whoever is commissioning his opinion. Nevertheless, he was only one doctor, and several were involved. I'm not convinced the three-month prognosis wasn't in good faith.

However, I'm not convinced it was, either. It was awfully convenient for those who didn't want to see the appeal upheld, and in particular for those who fought tooth and nail to prevent the defence from having sight of certain documents. Appeal scheduled to reconvene in three months. Well, if we go with the three-month prognosis, then with luck he'll agree to desert the appeal which he'd probably be dead before he reached anyway, and that'll get that out of the way.

So England released Ronnie Biggs, who doesn't have cancer and is also still alive, as a helpful precedent, and it all arranged itself. Neat.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
You know, I'd give a minor body part to know what the "top secret" documents contain. I've never heard anything like the legal back-flips the government went through to prevent the defence seeing this material. Are posters here aware of that?

There was a fair amount of to-and-fro about this, with the court ordering disclosure and the crown appealling. The crown invoked some sort of national security clause (a public immunity certificate), and declared that disclosure would prejudice Britain's relations with a friendly power.

It wasn't just about publishing the material either. There was absolute opposition even to the defence legal team having sight of the documents in private and in confidence, with an undertaking to maintain confidence. The agreement was completely unprecedented.

A "special advocate" was to be appointed for Megrahi, someone unconnected to his legal team. He could meet with Megrahi's legal advisors before he saw the secret documents, but after he saw them he was to be allowed no further communication with the defendant or the defence legal team. He was to be the only person allowed to put any point to the court in Megrahi's favour that he thought might be contained in these documents. So long as confidentiality as regards the actual contents was maintained.

This in Scotland, in 2009. Under an SNP government. Frankly, I'm baffled and in some degree of shock.

Well, there's no danger of the contents of these documents coming out in court now.

Rolfe.
 
Last edited:
If it was actually possible to infect someone with prostate cancer, I'd suspect Kenny MacAskill (or his predecessor, since the diagnosis was actually made in 2008) of doing just that.


Correction. The election was in 2007, what am I thinking of. It's Kennys, all the way down.

Rolfe.
 
And what the hell was going on with Hans Kochler? The official UN observer to the trial and first appeal. I mean, he published detailed, blistering criticisms of both the original trial and the first appeal, blasting them as biassed, unfair miscarriages of justice.

So what happened? The documents lie there on a web server and people can read them. That's it. Makes you wonder what the point was, really.

Rolfe.
 
And then it gets quiet. See, you can't make it impossible for people to speak their minds. The official story supporter needs absolute silence from the "innocent" corner to keep focused on the voices in their head chanting "guilty." And that in turn is necessary to saying the right thing and not appearing to be a terrorist sympathizer. Too much "innocent " noise never gets them to agree, only to get confused and stumble away to get their clarity back.

Thanks for sharing that about-face on Sikora. I'm not an official story supporter, but trying not to make a deal of it here. It helps to find areas of agreement. Many suspect a deal over the diagnosis, so do I. The items traded may differ in our versions, but just take that mysterious appeal drop next to a mysterious diagnosis and it's compelling.
 
Well, you'd got quite far in the few days before I saw the thread. Reasonable, balanced discussion about the pros and cons of the compassionate release, and a number of comparable examples. I just thought it was maybe time to introduce the concept that the idea that he should be treated worse because he killed a bunch of Americans might be a bit flawed because it seems he didn't actually kill that bunch of Americans at all.

Rolfe.
 
Well, you'd got quite far in the few days before I saw the thread. Reasonable, balanced discussion about the pros and cons of the compassionate release, and a number of comparable examples. I just thought it was maybe time to introduce the concept that the idea that he should be treated worse because he killed a bunch of Americans might be a bit flawed because it seems he didn't actually kill that bunch of Americans at all.

Rolfe.

He is still a muslim though, which seems to matter to some.
 
Ha! Ha! You're so clever.

So can you tell me which doctors were part of this conspiracy?


Perhaps they weren't consciously overestimating, but, being filled with the Love and Joy and Kindness that is letting mass murderers go so they can die in peace with loved ones, rather than screaming in terror, they erred on the side of overestimation, which, being filled with such Love, would actually make them feel even better -- he'd get even more time than just 3 months with Loved Ones.


I would expect hard, scientific statistics on person has X, here are the measurements that show the exact stage, and the known statistics of survival rates of people at that exact stage.
 
funk de fino said:
Well, you'd got quite far in the few days before I saw the thread. Reasonable, balanced discussion about the pros and cons of the compassionate release, and a number of comparable examples. I just thought it was maybe time to introduce the concept that the idea that he should be treated worse because he killed a bunch of Americans might be a bit flawed because it seems he didn't actually kill that bunch of Americans at all.

Rolfe.

He is still a muslim though, which seems to matter to some.


He hit a plane headed to the US. It wasn't just to kill US citizens. It's terrorism -- it tells the whole world to watch out when dealing with the US.
 

Back
Top Bottom