Merged Lockerbie bomber alive after 9 months

He hit a plane headed to the US. It wasn't just to kill US citizens. It's terrorism -- it tells the whole world to watch out when dealing with the US.


Well, no, he really didn't. Do you not read either this thread or the others you've participated in on this subject?

The SCCRC reported that there were six grounds on which the conviction was likely to be unsafe and unsound, and an appeal was in progress but adjourned. It is recognised by those who have perused the evidence presented that the appeal was inevitably going to succeed.

Maybe letting the real perpetrators off free and clear because the wrong man was prosecuted isn't quite the message you had in mind?

Rolfe.
 
So what? Where did the offence take place?


That's a really good question. Technically and legally, in Scotland, because that's where the people were actually, physically killed. So the case is under Scottish jurisdiction, no question.

Where was the bomb actually introduced into the airline baggage system though?

Rolfe.
 
He is still a muslim though, which seems to matter to some.


You know, it didn't at the time. It wasn't anything anyone spoke about. If it was ever menioned, it was only some sort of aside about Halal food in jail. The bombing wasn't anything to do with jihads or islamism or anything like that.

Even if you believe the Official Version, it was revenge for the bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi by the USA. Or if you believe the more probable version, it was revenge for the accidental (but negligent) shooting down of IA655 by the USS Vincennes.

This whole thing about it mattering that he's a Muslim all seems to have come about since 2001.

Rolfe.
 
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He hit a plane headed to the US. It wasn't just to kill US citizens. It's terrorism -- it tells the whole world to watch out when dealing with the US.

To avoid needless friction, let's say "convicted of," or some qualified equivalent, huh?

And, not to excuse anything, the world should watch out when dealing with the U.S. This imperial largesse doesn't come free, it's got blowback trailing behind it wherever terrorists can make it so. So yeah, there's plusses and minusses of working with Washington.
 
That's a really good question. Technically and legally, in Scotland, because that's where the people were actually, physically killed. So the case is under Scottish jurisdiction, no question.

Where was the bomb actually introduced into the airline baggage system though?

Rolfe.

Exactly. The vagaries of whatever timing mechanism was really in there determine who's in charge? What if it had gotten off land over the sea? Would a school of Haddock be tasked with diving to find the clues? UN?
 
In the middle of all the arguing last year, an English politician was heard to say something like "it's not fair they should get to handle this, if only the bomb had gone off ten minutes earlier we could have had all the attention...."

Rolfe.
 
Please everyone, refrain from mentioning how this monster might be innocent
Sorry but his guilt was never proven, and a person should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Thus this person should be presumed innocent.
 
Well, legally of course, that isn't the case. There was a legal conviction, and the appeal was withdrawn.

This is the only basis on which those who have been howling for the "monster" to die in jail, preferably painfully, have justified their position. Caustic Logic, playing devil's advocate (or possibly Mr. Sarcasm) articulates that point.

Of course, as far as Scots law is concerned, his innocence of the crime isn't really important. He'd have been just as entitled to compassionate release if a CCTV camera had shown him smuggling the suitcase past security and his DNA had been found on the blast-damaged underwear. Scottish prisons don't have hospice facilities, and it's not unreasonable for terminally ill patients to be nursed at home for their last few weeks, irrespective of their crimes.

It's quite possible the original three-month prognosis was given in good faith, but I'm less convinced of that than I was. If he hadn't been released in August, the appeal would have reconvened in November, and it's fairly clear the Crown would really prefer that not to happen. I do rather suspect them of encouraging a shorter prognosis to justify releasing him well before the reconvene date.

I don't necessarily feel aggrieved that he's been released. He was certainly a Libyan spy, and quite possibly not a nice person at all. Who knows what he might actually have done during his career? However, none of that is a justification for life imprisonment in a foreign country. So he's had nine months at home, apparently with very good medical care. This is not a bad thing.

What I am hacked off about is the withdrawal of the appeal. There was no legal necessity for that to happen - compassionate release could have been granted, he could have returned to Libya, and the appeal could have gone ahead. It could even have continued after the death of the defendant. However, Megrahi's lawyers are on record as saying their client was pressurised into withdrawing the appeal, by being given to understand that his chances of being able to return home would be much improved if he did that.

Nice piece of manoeuvering. Meh.

Rolfe.
 
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Well, no, he really didn't. Do you not read either this thread or the others you've participated in on this subject?

The SCCRC reported that there were six grounds on which the conviction was likely to be unsafe and unsound, and an appeal was in progress but adjourned. It is recognised by those who have perused the evidence presented that the appeal was inevitably going to succeed.

Maybe letting the real perpetrators off free and clear because the wrong man was prosecuted isn't quite the message you had in mind?

Rolfe.

Hold on, you're saying what, that this guy didn't actually do it, so that aided them in deciding to let him go?
 
Looking forward to Alt+F4's findings if possible. I've still got not much to add. I was mostly here to hear.

This is what I have been able to find thus far:

The Lockerbie bomber has lived longer than other convicted murderers who have been granted compassionate release, it has been disclosed.
Conservative justice spokesman Bill Aitken said that Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi "now surpasses the record for the longest amount of time a convicted murderer has been free after being granted compassionate release".

This was published on May 20, 2010. Are Bill Aitken and the Herald newspaper reliable?

http://breakingnews.heraldscotland.com/breaking-news/?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0014571274295662406A
 
Reliable enough. That was stock agency material though, and it appeared in several papers. It was published just as soon as the previously longest-surviving record for someone convicted of murder had been passed - another cancer patient who survived just under 9 months.

Of course other prisoners granted compassionate release who were convicted of different offences have lived longer. And the nature of the offence isn't actually a consideration here anyway. Note that Ronnie Biggs, the great train robber who evaded punishment for decades by living in South America, was released before Megrahi and is still alive.

Which is why I think it's quite possible the three-month prognosis was given in good faith. But on the other hand, given how it enabled the appeal to be dispensed with at a crucial point, maybe not, either.

Rolfe.
 
Hold on, you're saying what, that this guy didn't actually do it, so that aided them in deciding to let him go?


Beerina, we've had this conversation before.

Essentially yes, what you say is true, but not in the way it might sound from that bare statement. In fact Kenny MacAskill was vehement in denouncing his appalling crime when he announced his release - not a whisper of an acknowledgment of the doubts about the safety of the conviction.

He didn't do it, which is horrendously embarrassing for everyone involved in the investigation and conviction, from the CIA to the Scottish criminal justice system. They'd been dragging their heels over getting the appeal to court for about seven years.

Everyone who has looked at the evidence agrees he didn't do it - with the exception of Richard Marquise, who has consistently refused to explain why he takes this view, merely falling back on the fact of the verdict. The US families who protest Megrahi's guilt also never give any reason and appear not to be familiar with the actual evidence.

It's perfectly clear that the identification evidence given by the Maltese shopkeeper Tony Gauci was - well, let's just say mistaken. It's easy to make a mistake like that, when it's been years since you served the customer in question. Especially if you know you stand to gain a couple of million bucks if your evidence leads to a conviction. Lacking that identification, the conviction couldn't stand. That was the inevitable outcome of the appeal, which had already started.

This was going to leave the justice system in the very, very embarrassing position of not having a conviction for the worst crime in Scottish history. They'd have had to re-open the enquiry, and what were the chances of finding who really did it after more than 20 years?

So much of middle east affairs for the past 20 years relies on Libya having agreed to take responsibility for Lockerbie. Not to mention the families of the victims having become multimillionnaires from the compensation money paid by Libya. Lots of reasons for not wanting to upset that particular apple cart.

Also, there was the matter of the documents the defence wanted to have produced in evidence, but the Crown wanted to keep secret. Don't know what that was all about. However, there seems to be evidence floating around in this case that the authorities didn't want to become public. Another good reason for not wanting the appeal to happen.

They couldn't have stopped it, of course. They were just doing their damndest to delay it. Seven years isn't bad going. Then Megrahi became terminally ill. This afforded the opportunity to use the carrot of getting back home to Libya to persuade Megrahi to withdraw the appeal. But it really had to be done before the appeal reconvened.

So yes. He didn't do it. This wasn't something the Crown wanted to be judicially confirmed. So it was convenient to let him go.

Rolfe.
 
Hold on, you're saying what, that this guy didn't actually do it, so that aided them in deciding to let him go?

As I think Rolfe covered, this is ironically true. Not outwardly of course - guilt is certain there, just irrelevant. But anyone who really knows the evidence knows the conviction was tenuous. "Unsafe." It did survive one ill-conceived appeal, but the second one packed more punch and had the SCCRC's ruling as encouragement. It is highly convenient that the man was compelled to drop that thing so it was never given a chance in court.

Yeah, I'm done keeping my convictions thinly veiled.

This is what I have been able to find thus far:

This was published on May 20, 2010. Are Bill Aitken and the Herald newspaper reliable?

http://breakingnews.heraldscotland.com/breaking-news/?mode=article&site=hs&id=N0014571274295662406A

That's not a very deep source. Mr. Aitken is obnoxious, but what he says is true. We could also categorize by releasees of Arab descent, or those convicted for airplane-related incidents, etc. I suspect by now he'd top a lot of lists. Murder is one of the more poignant classifiers, of course.

It seems your main issue was preferrential treatment, and you were perhaps implying this came from the Scottish authorities, on account of Megrahi being an Arab terrorist, and the whole world outside USA being against USA and for its enemies. I'm sure part of that is my own imagination, but did you find any info to support the parts you do believe?
 
If you'll recall, convicted Lockerbie bomber Abdul al Megrahi was released from prison last year on "compassionate grounds." That meant he was likely to die within three months.

Back on May 20 we passed the nine months mark (since release, not the even earlier diagnosis), and he's still alive. Beats the record for convicted killers surviving after release. Suspicions are growing over that diagnosis. BP may as well have written it up.

So what do we do now? Are sporadic boycotts of Scotland sufficient? Should we send in mercenaries? Maybe even into Libya? Was Obama at fault? Can those doctors be jailed? Bomb Libya for good this time? Here are some excellent (if dated) recommendations from Americans from last year, mostly just about Megrahi personally:


http://world-news.newsvine.com/_new...?threadId=655523&commentId=14487983#c14487983

Anyone with more current ideas, now that the plane has landed and he continues to taunt us with continued breathing? Is it too late for the torture?

Please everyone, refrain from mentioning how this monster might be innocent or this will be sent to the CT forum. Just normal politics as far as this thread is concerned - convicted mass-murdering terrorist Islamist scum set free and what now? Who pays and how?

I'm sorry, but why is a thread about a Lybian released from a Scottish jail in USA Politics?
 
I'm sorry, but why is a thread about a Lybian released from a Scottish jail in USA Politics?
American plane...the attack was targeted at the US....I suppose its always arguable Do you count the nationality of the plane or where it fell?
 
Definitely arbitrary placement. I meant to engage angry and ignorant Americans. Was a little upset when it was moved, twice I think, but then it was quickly plopped back here. I wouldn't care now if it was moved, to about anywhere but the CT ghetto. I'll leave it to a pro to figure out just where it best fits.
 
He is still alive but cancer prognosis can be variable. I have known individuals given a year that died in three months and others given three months last a couple of years.

In prison he was in decline both mentally and physically and may well have lasted only three months. In Libya no expense is being spared in his treatment and he got a lift from being allowed to go home. Nevertheless, he isn't living it up in the Tripoli cafe scene and is too ill to do interviews and the like. I'm not sure that 9 months on chemotherapy is all that great a prize to win.

In short I don't think this is out of the bounds of normal medical experience and does not merit any conspiracy speculation.

As an issue in Scotland I can't recall the last time I have heard anybody mention it. It certainly didn't headline in the recent election. Of course the generally held view that he was a patsy may have some bearing on the lack of interest.
 
You're right, the issue isn't getting headline treatment at all, these days. That nasty little piece, unattributed, quoting Bill Aitken, a Conservative member of the Scottish parliament, who of course will miss no chance to pour bile on the SNP, is the only thing I've seen. It's certainly not the talk of the steamie.

Conservative justice spokesman Bill Aitken said that Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi "now surpasses the record for the longest amount of time a convicted murderer has been free after being granted compassionate release".

The Libyan, who has terminal prostate cancer, was controversially released from jail on August 20 last year.

Details published on the Scottish Government website showed 38 prisoners have been granted compassionate release since 1993.

Megrahi has now lived longer than the other convicted murderers who have been freed over this period - prompting fresh calls for Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill to release medical reports on the bomber.


I don't know who's doing the calling, except maybe Bill Aitken. Well, actually, the last part of the article makes that fairly clear.

I've seen no confirmation of this part at all, and I suspect it's fabricated.

At the same time it was reported Megrahi has been working on a television documentary, which could be released later this year.

Mr Aitken said: "Since the Lockerbie bomber was released, he has enjoyed a life of luxury, celebrated his birthday and now surpasses the record for the longest amount of time a convicted murderer has been free after being granted compassionate release.


Well, again, Ronnie Biggs is still alive, it's just that he wasn't convicted of murder. Bill has just waited until the previous time limit reached by a murderer was passed, and penned his spiteful little piece.

Megrahi put a few things on a web site soon after he was released, and then nothing. It seems likely he's not really well enough for that sort of thing. Of course his family is wealthy and he won't exactly be living in a hovel, but lying in bed hooked up to a morphine drip, which is what is probably going on, isn't "enjoying a life of luxury" in most people's books. It's not impossible someone has filmed him for a documentary I suppose.

This is just Bill Aitken trying to score a nasty little political point. Nobody's listening.

Nogbad said:
Of course the generally held view that he was a patsy may have some bearing on the lack of interest.


I don't know what you mean by a "patsy". He was Director of the Centre for Strategic Studies in Tripoli, who was passing through Luqa airport on the morning on 21st December 1988 on some undisclosed (possibly nefarious) business. He had no opportunity to smuggle a bomb into the luggage of the Frankfurt-bound flight, and in any case there was no unaccounted-for bag on that flight.

The bomb that blew up Maid of the Seas didn't go on at Luqa - it probably went on at Heathrow. Which means Megrahi didn't do it. He was basically fitted up. Is that what you mean by a "patsy"?

Rolfe.
 

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