Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[The Fool]

No, we have to keep it proportional.

Like for like.

Shipload of civilian militants vs. shipload of civilian militants. Sounds good to me. And proportional.

still can't get your head around the concept of proportionate response can you. You always choose to compare one sides forces with the other where you need to be comparing one sides forces and actions with the forces and actions reasonable required to achieve the objective. Its quite simple really, why do you constantly get it wrong despite continual correction?

 

[fallout]

Fallout- your grasp of the issues is quite amazing. Just wanted to say that.

I´m really glad to read this and to know you also agree.

 

[Pardalis]

bring the assassin regime to international court, hold them accountable for these crimes.

Shouldn't we do the same with Hamas? I mean the militant branch of Hamas...

What you are basically saying is that we should let Hamas off the hook and it will take care of itself. As Quixottecoyote said, color me unimpressed.

 

[The Fool]

And the United Nations agrees.


http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/en/drip.html

rubbish it agrees....The fact that you can use the word "nation" in other contexts does not change the fact that many people on this forun like to assign nationhood, statehood whatever you damn well call it to stateless palestinians depending on how it suits the daily argumant....

generally speaking they want to give them statehood when it means responsibilities but not give it to them when it means rights....


ok, back to the semantic smokescreen generation.




just as an asside....when the next mob of ships arrives hands up all those who think bibi will be stupid enough to repeat this debacle?

sorry guys, your much desired pasta and stuffed toy ban is all but over....bad luck about that.... but just like when olmert had the common sense not to do something stupid like this and allow passage of ships....the sky won't fall.

 

[quixotecoyote]

I mentioned Turkey, a former ally to Israel because this aid was mainly Turkish and taken personally by Turkey as turkish. So there we go, Turkey is indirectly being taken as a suspect of smuggling terrorist weapons onboard even by the repeated statements about the fact that the flotilla was searched by request of the ONG at the ports which it passed through.

A blockade stops all ships, previously inspected or not, from whatever country.

You did not understand me. In fact I don't even get your point on this one.

You want the UN to step in. To convince me, you'd have to show something in their history that gives a reasonable expectation of a positive result.

No it doesn't , the imoral blockade intercepts and is now for the first time killing civilians onboard, and it's astounding they are keeping everything under the table up till now and getting away with it. Where are the details of this murder? Come on, its a rogue estate. They insisted about the flotilla handing the stuff at ashdod through the "official mediums", and all that bull, but the flotilla was an activist act, they intended to show the world how stupid this blockade is and how far Israel can go to perpetrate this delusion about fear of terrorism and extinction. This got old, it's only fantasy, there are many ways of neutralizing the radical part of Hamas peacefully.

The blockade stopped the ships and redirected them to a port where their supplies would be routed to Palestine after inspection. On one ship, the crew attacked the soldiers with pipes and other weapons and was 9 people were killed as the soldiers defended themselves.

These are the facts. I'm done with you, but if you want to actually convince anyone, you will need to engage with the facts at some point.

No, my solution is: lift the rogue siege, bring the assassin regime to international court, hold them accountable for these crimes. That with an open gaza and a UN policy of searching ships that head to the open gaza ports ( so theres no babbling about weapons), we can see what follows. At least we would be doing something more humane than this crap, PLUS being able to , this time, crush any sign of a hypothetical "xenophobe terrorist hamas" that would want to take place once these measures take place. The world will now be watching it very very closely. I predict that this evil terrorist hamas that israel portraits, if it still exists, with solutions like that, would be crushed, and the pacifist branch of hamas, which is growing recently, will eventually prevail. We had a statement of medvedev not too long ago ( i will look the link up) saying that hamas' more pacific behaviors is leading russia to be willing to talk to them more closely. In fact they talked to each other, and Israel cried about it.

You have not demonstrated the existence of any crimes. You have not demonstrated that the UN would be able or willing to effectively constrain arms buildup in Gaza. You refer to Hamas's terrorism as hypothetical even though their leaders openly call for genocide and their regime screams it through the airwaves, even on children's programming. You refer to Hamas as having a growing pacifist branch. In short, you are too far gone for meaningful discussion.

I dont mean by that rough example of a solution, that all the millenar conflicts will end, and the arab/persian world will completely befriend Israel, but it will be a start. This is just one hypothesis, there are many that can be thought about if people really allow themselves to. But resorting to violent and brutal acts as a blockade , and defending it with this stupidly lethal forces against an international convoy is enraging at the very least.

Given that it's probably too much for you to top your description of Israel as a criminal-Nazi-pirate-assassin-rougish-gangster-regime, I doubt I can even expect any further entertainment value.

 

[Pardalis]

The fact that you can use the word "nation" in other contexts

Well, this is the context I use the word "nation" pretty much all the time.

Next time you'll know.

ETA: BTW, if you think "nation" and "state" are synonyms, what does a "nation-state" mean?

 

[fallout]

The USA has called for an Israeli investigation with American observers. I would like observers from some EU states as well.

Yeah I seen that ultrageous but not surprising happening.

 

[fallout]

The what?

So all people who are part of Hamas are terrorist and violent? It's not what the world is seeing now.

 

[WildCat]

I don't recall condemning Jews for moving to Palestine during the late 1800s and the early 1900s. They could have easily moved to the USA, but instead chose a much rougher and ideologically driven life in Muslim-ruled Palestine.

Really? In 1880 the cost to move to the USA from eastern Europe was comparable to moving to Palestine?

The point was, (as I am SURE you are aware) that if Muslim-ruled Palestine was soooo very hard on Jews, they would not have gone there. The Muslims allowed the Jews to build many settlements and set the groundwork for the new Jewish state.

God love those Muslim Turks. We couldn't have done it without them...huh?

Too bad Hamas bears no semblence at all to the Ottomans.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Well, this is the context I use the word "nation" pretty much all the time.

You and just about everybody else.

eta:

ETA: BTW, if you think "nation" and "state" are synonyms, what does a "nation-state" mean?

I think they can be synonyms in general usage, I think it's one of the reasons "sovereign nation" is such a useful phrase.

 

[Skeptic]

Even so, it does not seem to suggest that the Ottoman rule suppressed religion or was anti-semitic.

Yes and no... the Ottoman empire at the time was very corrupt and in effect the local rulers cared only how much bakshish (bribes) they could get. They could be horrifically cruel -- see what they did to the Armenians. They could have done the same to any group had it annoyed them.

I hardly think that tens of thousands of Jewish people would emigrate to an anti-semitic area where they couldn't practice their religion.

You are -- slightly! -- missing the point.

The Land of Israel (Eretz Israel) -- under whatever rule or name -- is for the Jews not just some area, but the area, their homeland. It is this that made it the place to go in the zionist movement, not how easy or hard life was there.

Life in Ottoman-ruled Palestine -- a remote corner of the corrupt and backward Ottoman empire -- was difficult enough to the European-bred Jews who came, even without antisemitism. Indeed some Talmud sages said, "living in the Land of Israel is equivalent to all other commandments" -- which was said precisely during times when it was forbidden to practice the religion there.

However, you are correct that, naturally, such ideals notwithstanding, more Jews would come if things were easier, and less if the Ottomans were also antisemitic.

I understand that the first kibbutz was established during the Ottoman rule.

True.

 

[WildCat]

still can't get your head around the concept of proportionate response can you. You always choose to compare one sides forces with the other where you need to be comparing one sides forces and actions with the forces and actions reasonable required to achieve the objective. Its quite simple really, why do you constantly get it wrong despite continual correction?

That's so vague, my method leaves no doubt that the force will be proportionate.

 

[Pardalis]

So all people who are part of Hamas are terrorist and violent?

I'm sure there are hard working fathers in the KKK, but the organization is still a violent and hateful ideology and anyone who joins them knows this, and counts on it.

 

[mortimer]

You and just about everybody else.

Here in the US, many Native American tribes refer to themselves as nations, and they are commonly referred to as such by other Americans. I was under the impression this is common with other indigenous peoples, such as many of the aboriginal groups in Australia.

"State" does not mean the same thing as "nation".

 

[Mycroft]

Reporters are all pro Hamas

Wasn't the discussion about a very narrow sub-set of reporters who were aboard that ship?

 

[quixotecoyote]

It does when you're pwning someone on the interwebz... in your own mind anyway.

I'll say again that the terms do have overlapping definitions. State can be defined without reference to 'sovereignty', which is why adding that term is a helpful descriptor.

 

[Mycroft]

Would you mind sharing these videos in the correct chronology? I'm sorry, but I don't have a lot of time to do that tonight, but I guess I can go over the whole thread again and look for them and try to put them in order.



What is contradicted? What is their story?



(JihadJane)



http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5990587&postcount=993



They have released several videos:


(Up to you whether you choose to believe this)







Still waiting for more evidence, thanks.

Wow. Just wow.

I don't see how anyone can watch those videos, especially the third one, and not come away understanding that it's the blockade runners who initiated the violence.

 

[fallout]

Shouldn't we do the same with Hamas? I mean the militant branch of Hamas...

What you are basically saying is that we should let Hamas off the hook and it will take care of itself. As Quixottecoyote said, color me unimpressed.

We definetly should, I wish I could. I'm anti-war pretty much up till where one can be. Any Hamas fundamentalist freak with a plan of throwing mortars on civilians thinking it would solve anything, should be held accountable, which doesnt happen, so the blockade can keep going.

Remember, making gaza an even worse badlands with every passing day is good for israel's regime, because at any point the oppressed can't stand it anymore and will turn violent and justify complete anihilation. I wish Hamas would never been terrorist and violent, but that's what nature does, it raises forces against any opposing force. Don't expect every human being or opposing organization to act like ghandi all the time when facing violence against themselves. Blockades, humanitarian ship plundering and hijacking, or just plain bombing won't make it any safer and closer to a peaceful end. There's a bunch of possible solutions for this, but that's seem to be all Israel doesn't want. They want it as it is right now, control over gaza and to make sure their hatred grows to justify clashing and carrying on the zionist agenda of occupying the whole so-called promised land.

 

[lionking]

I'll ask again, because the responses were deafening last time. Hands up those who believe that Israel should allow each and every ship to dock in Gaza when this technique was used in the past to land weapons and rockets which were used against Israel?

 

[The Fool]

Well, this is the context I use the word "nation" pretty much all the time.

Next time you'll know.

ETA: BTW, if you think "nation" and "state" are synonyms, what does a "nation-state" mean?

nope....its when you want to equate palestinians with Israelis....palestine with Israel. As in ....a nation, a member of the collections of the worlds nations. The things that bestow nationality.....the entities that make you a canadian and me an australian. The obligations and rights that come with nationhood.


This has not happened yet to stateless palestinians. I tried to nail you down by asking you what the founding date of the palestinian nation was....Israel has one australia has one, so does canada......for first prize, name the palestinian nation foundation date.

but whats the point, you have probably at least two or three more pages of sematic smokescreen left in you eh?

you can't just assign the responsibilities and obligations of statehood on palestinians without the rights and advantages....sorry about that.