Merged Israel Attacks Palestinian Aid Flotilla, According To Reports

[E.J.Armstrong]

Who the heck brought up the holocaust? Nobody until Parky did right now, that's who.

You bring it up all the time in your anti-human rights rants.

 

[Thunder]

You forgot imperialist and Zionist.

I do not consider it to be "imperialist".

And only idiots and morons use "Zionist" as an adjective.

 

[Cleon]

And what about work, don't people work on monday afternoons in Atlanta?

Well, a couple of things.

Number one, yesterday was Memorial Day. People don't work on Memorial Day.

Number two, the demonstration is scheduled for this evening, not yesterday.

Number three, many of the activists who are involved are students and retired folks. Others work different shifts, or part-time.

Number four, this is actually a common problem for activists; the only way to schedule a demonstration that people actually see is to do so during working hours (or, in this case, rush hour). Unfortunately, doing so prevents many people who have day jobs from attending. The contradiction is not one that is easily resolved.

 

[Skeptic]

By the same token, war causes hardships for civilian populations, yet war is not illegal. Therefore it's simply not logical to define everything that causes a hardship as "collective punishment."

By this definition, the US bombing campaign of WWII, or the British blockade or WWI, or the blockade of the Southern ports in the Civil war, or the behavior of practically every nation ever fighting a war is "collective punishment" of the other side and, thus, by definition illegal and evil.

"Israel engaging in collective punishment" = "Israel fighting back". That's what this really means, and that's what the real reason for the anger is.

 

[Pardalis]

And the rest of my post is just one big lie, right?

I didn't say that.

1. I've been involved in organizing such events in the past, and know what sort of effort goes into them. I know, firsthand, what can be done on super-short notice using social networking tools.
2. I'm rather well-connected with the local Palestine solidarity movement. If something was being planned ahead of time, I'd've heard about it.

In short...I'm likely the only person in this thread, regardless of their stance on Israel/Palestine, who knows what the hell he's talking about on this particular subject. You can disagree with me out of spite, but not based on the facts.

I never said I disagreed. As I said, the Palestine solidarity movement is a well oiled machine, one of the quickest in the world to gather and pick up sings to protest, like it's second nature.

I just wished other groups were as well organized.

But as Kotatsu mentioned, you guys also are well informed and knew of the flotilla's intention to force against the blocade last week.

 

[Mycroft]

And this from the 'person' who used deformed Palestinian children as a joke.

The hypocrisy of Zionists never changes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

 

[Pardalis]

Number one, yesterday was Memorial Day. People don't work on Memorial Day.

Not in Canada. The demonstrations were international. It's not Memorial Day everywhere.

Number two, the demonstration is scheduled for this evening, not yesterday.

There were worldwide demonstrations yesterday.

Number three, many of the activists who are involved are students and retired folks. Others work different shifts, or part-time.

OK.

 

[Skeptic]

I'm rather well-connected with the local Palestine solidarity movement.

The ones who support Hamas, or the ones who prefer Hizbullah?

You think I'm kidding? I suggest the following experiment, with all seriousness.

Go to the local Hillel Jewish pro-Israel meeting. Find an opportunity to ask them: "how many of you would accept a Palestinian state if it indeed recognizes and lives in peace with the Jewish state"?

I am willing to bet that, at least, 90% of the hands will go up.

Go to your local "Palestinian solidarity group" meeting and ask the same question (in reverse) -- how many would be willing to accept a Jewish state if it does, in fact, live in peace with a Palestinian state.

I am willing to bet less than 10% of the hands would go up.

In general, so-called "Palestinian solidarity movements" are merely movements who real goal is the destruction of Israel. Chances are, you are -- unwittingly -- supporting genocide. I might be wrong, but chances are I'm right.

Here is some more evidence from a recent article:

I’ll tell you a story that will help illustrate it. I spoke at [the University of California at] Irvine about a year ago... before [Israeli Ambassador] Michael Oren was shut down... they tried to shut him down. They shut me down too; they were screaming, but I just spoke over them. You could see that there were three groups in the audience. A group on my left that were wearing blue and white, some of them were wearing kippot, some of them were waving an Israeli flag. There was a group on my right that were wearing Palestinian garb, anti-Israel shirts, and a very large group in the middle.

So I started off by saying, “How many of you identify yourselves as pro-Israel,” hands went up. “How many would identify yourselves as pro-Palestine,” hands went up. “I want to ask the pro-Israel people, how many of you accept a Palestinian state, a non-terrorist state, a demilitarized state living side by side in peace with Israel.” Every hand went up. I said, “I want to now turn to the pro-Palestinians. How many of you would accept a non-settlement, non-expansionist, peaceful state living side by side.” There was some mumbling, some discussion, but not a single hand went up.

My experience with such groups is quite similar.

 

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

Lord help me, I really can't tell if you seriously believe that or not.

You're probably right.
Though: remember when tens of thousands of idiots took to the street all over the world, burning Danish flags? Do you know where to easily get one, say, in Lahore? Or anywhere? I don't.
So: I guess that spontaneous outrage can be planned in advance

[/conspiracy]

 

[Cleon]

And what about work, don't people work on monday afternoons in Atlanta?

Well, a couple of things.

Number one, yesterday was Memorial Day. People don't work on Memorial Day.

Number two, the demonstration is scheduled for this evening, not yesterday.

Number three, many of the activists who are involved are students and retired folks. Others work different shifts, or part-time.

Number four, this is actually a common problem for activists; the only way to schedule a demonstration that people actually see is to do so during working hours (or, in this case, rush hour). Unfortunately, doing so prevents many people who have day jobs from attending. The contradiction is not one that is easily resolved.

Not in Canada. The demonstrations were international. It's not Memorial Day everywhere.

There were worldwide demonstrations yesterday.

OK.

Despite my American public-school education, I'm fairly certain Atlanta is not in Canada.

 

[noreligion]

Not in Canada. The demonstrations were international. It's not Memorial Day everywhere.

Didn't say there weren't demonstrations everywhere. You asked if people worked Monday afternoons in Atlanta and I told you yesterday was memorial day there. Is that a problem for you?

 

[Cleon]

The ones who support Hamas, or the ones who prefer Hizbullah?

You think I'm kidding?

No, I think you're pathetically serious, and I'm not going to dignify it with a response.

 

[Pardalis]

Despite my American public-school education, I'm fairly certain Atlanta is not in Canada.

And I wasn't talking about Atlanta, but the hundreds of spontaneous protests around the world.

 

[richardm]

I'm impressed by how many experts on maritime and international law there are in this thread. It's quite cleared up the issues for me.

I'm basing my opinions on the comments of a real, live and actual expert on maritime and international law that I mentioned earlier in the thread, who was giving his opinion on the very situation under discussion. Of course he's just one expert, and he may be wrong. In which case I'll be wrong as well.

I'm not sure what Thunder is basing his opinions on, but he might be right.

 

[Skeptic]

No, I think you're pathetically serious, and I'm not going to dignify it with a response.

I think you're rather afraid of what you'll find. Care to tell me what group you're talking about so I'll see who they are connected with? Just that you'll be clear whom, as a Jew, you're in bed with.

 

[E.J.Armstrong]

Practical list of actions you can take if you want to protest at the apartheid government of Israel's terrorism: -

1/ Write to your MP, Congressman, politicians and suggest that they tell your government/s to place restrictions on entry to your country by politicians from Israel.
2/ Ask your politicians to place Israel on a list of active terrorist states with North Korea et al.
3/ Ask your government to close down the Israeli embassy for a specified period of time - for example 3 months.
4/ Boycott all Israeli goods.
5/ Write to all your major supermarkets such as Walmart, Asda, Tesco, Sainburys, Morrisons etc and tell them that you will stop visiting their stores unless they stop selling Israeli sourced goods of any kind.
6/ Write to your major academic institutions and associated trade unions and suggest they should boycott all academic contact with Israeli academic institutions unless they ask the Israeli government to obey international law.
7/ Write to Obama and tell him that the Usan government will be even more of an international hypocrite if it continues to support the pariah and inhumane state of apartheid Israel.
8/ Send letters to you national papers to complain about your state not doing enough to isolate the apartheid and terrorist state of Israel.
9/ Do not visit Israel.
10/ If you see an IDF commander or Israeli politician visiting your country call a human rights lawyer so they can be arrested.
11/ Write to your government and insist that the 1967 borders of Palestine be implemented as soon as possible, with or without Israel's funder the USA.
12/ Write to your government and suggest that they be prepared to take military action with the UN against Israel if it attacks any more states.
13/ Write to all your sports organisations and suggest that they sever all sporting ties with Israeli teams unless those teams demand that their government obey international law.

There are many more suggestions. End the illegal and inhumane pogrom against Palestinian children by the apartheid government of Israel now.
Al the Israeli government recognises is power. Show your commercial and citizen power under the law to them clearly and in concert all across the world.

Good luck.

 

[Cleon]

And I wasn't talking about Atlanta, but the hundreds of spontaneous protests around the world.

Actually, you specifically said Atlanta. I even bolded it for you.

 

[Kotatsu]

It was all done through the wonders of modern technology, cell phones, Twitter and the like. This is what social justice activists call taking the corporations technology and using it against them as they pat themselves on the back for bring clever.

Yes, as the political left is firmly set against all forms of modern technology, it is certainly hypocritical of them to use cell phones, Twitter and so on to keep in touch and organise protests when they fell outraged. It would be much easier if they followed the typical leftist dogma and eschewed all these modern wonders in favour of meeting in alleys after dusk so that they can easily be rounded up or beaten down with sabers, like in the good old days. It's over the top to both claim to be members of a progressive movement, and at the same time have the nerve to actually progress!

As I stated above, in the protest I went to yesterday there were such stalwart anti-technology and anti-corporation institutions as the Conservative party, the Swedish Church, and the "Liberals" involved.

It's an "anti-colonial" thing. Israelis are viewed as white people who forcibly colonised the land of the brown people and since, according to the doctrine of political correctness, only white people can be racist ( no, I'm not making this up, I read babbledotca, daily, I'm a masochist ) this is a prime example of "the dominant society" oppressing "the other"

You've got to hand it to them, though: the left is very clever in the way that they are both anti-semites and thereby consider the Israeli some sort of subhuman scum, well separated from themselves, and consider the Israeli the same as themselves because they are both white people oppressing the browns! This sort of mental juggling is way beyond me -- I simply can't work it out!

You'd think this is something a conservative has just pulled out of his commodious behind because an analysis of the situation not based on the maxim "those lefty plebs are just plain stupid" is beyond their capabilities, but it is so obviously correct. Why, only at the protest here in town yesterday, I was amazed at how only white people turned up. Granted, the representatives from the Swedish Union of Muslims and the Swedish-Turkish Society looked pretty swarthy to me, but that's probably because they've been picketing too many nuclear plants or something. That's just the sort of thing they'd do!

I've also noticed a refusal to separate radical Islam form normal, everyday Islam and I can only surmise that this is done to allow the protesters to make claims like the west is at war with the Muslim world, simply because they're Muslim.

It's a good thing the conservatives are still holding the banner of separating radical Muslims from ordinary Muslims high, so that they, at least, won't be accused of painting with the broadest of the "the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim" brushes commercially available. I challenge anyone reading this thread to try to find a single quote by someone to the right of the political centre who has ever attempted to equate the terrorist acts of a few Muslims with the cruelty and barbarism of their entire religion. I'm not expecting any takers, though...

So: what is Israel supposed to do when the next flotilla of Rachel Corries sets sail for fail?
Just let them pass?

We can only hope that they continue their current policy of sending troops specially trained in non-lethal take-over, so that no on gets hurt! It would be a disaster if they were to substitute a less smoothly operating procedure for the present very successful one.

Indeed the pro-Palestinian lobby is a very well oiled machine.

They can get ready to protest at a moment's notice.

And I agree with you that it is probably because the left is all lazy bums who don't go to work but instead sit at home or in trendy coffee shops collecting benefits and protesting against the Man until the Man strikes back, in which event they go home to their parents and mooch off of them instead.

Kotatsu: Way not funny.

Do you know what also isn't funny? Getting shot to death.

Since earlier you noted that this fleet of aid ships knew in advance they were going into a dangerous situation, wouldn't the families of said aid workers have seen it coming?

I mean, they had already their protest signs packed and ready.

Yes, quite likely some or even most of them did. I would not at all be surprised to learn that at least some of the people aboard those ships took very solemn and serious farewells of their friends and family before they left. That does not in any way imply that they were expecting to actually get shot to death by experts in non-lethal take-over.

While the people aboard the Turkish ship acted like award-winning morons in attacking the Israeli soldiers, this does in no way excuse the fact that these same Israeli soldiers then proceeded to kill people. To my mind, any killing of man by man is detestable, regardless of the situation. This extends to the senseless and moronic killing of innocent Israeli by their neighbours as well.

It looks alot like a publicity stunt. Eve[n] Kotatsu agrees.

I actually (no attempt at irony this time) do agree: the whole operation was a publicity stunt, and apart from people being shot to death, I do believe the organisers of the convoy have achieved one of their primary aims, even if this may not be a publicly broadcast aim. They have highlighted the need for the world to react towards the blockade, and tried to force governments and organisations around the world to go from talk to action. I would not be very surprised if they organisers came out and stated that they had never expected the convoy to reach Gaza in the first place.

However, just because something is a publicity stunt does not mean it is necessarily bad (which, of course, no one seems to claim anyway...). The right cannot go on pitying Israel forever, just as the left cannot go on pitying the Palestinians forever. I have been involved in more heated discussions with my friends on the left that I care to count because -- in general -- I refuse to subscribe to their view that there is a clear-cut case of one side being wrong and one side being right in this conflict.

To me, the fact remains that subsections of both sides kill innocents on the other side, and this has to stop somehow. It is deplorable that my fellow lefties can at the same time claim to stand for equality and the equal value of all humans, and at the same time condemn killings performed by Israeli harsher than those performed by Palestinians. How can all men be equally valuable in life, but then suddenly be of unequal value in death? If, as I believe, every person is equally valuable, then every death of an Israeli is as horrible as that of a Palestinian, though I am often quite isolated here on the left in having this opinion.

It may or may not, therefore, surprise you that had the roles been reversed, and the activists on the ship had managed to kill X Israeli soldiers and driven the rest away, I would have been equally outraged about these deaths. The people who started fighting aboard that ship were as large idiots as those who continued.

No, the flotilla counted on there being casualties, they had all those placards and signs already painted and ready to go on the streets by monday at noon.

What a comfortable little nest you have made there! The posters they had here where I live consisted of the Ship to Gaza logotype, a photocopied picture of a ship or something, and the hand-written message "Protest GA 18.00" (meaning, "Protest at Gustav Adolfs Torg at 6 pm). It beggars belief that a mere year of preparation would have been sufficient to throw that sort of high-profile material together!

Just ask Kotatsu, they knew a whole week beforehand that something was going to go down, and just a tweet was enough set off the protests in motion, all organized by political parties, NGOs and such.

Certainly, I believe I knew that Ship to Gaza was organising a shipment to Gaza about a year ago, when they started spreading posters and pamplets at the First of May celebrations here in town, and started appearing in magazines and so on. I must admit that I was unaware of exactly which date they would set of on the final leg of the journey to Gaza, so unlike many of the people at the protest yesterday, I wasn't glued to my computer screen all night or kept in constant contact with the people aboard.

And certainly I could imagine beforehand that Israel would react in some way to what is after all a provocation, but I find it far-fetched that anyone would actually have counted on Israel opening fire and kill lots of people. Waylay the ships to some other harbour, preventing them entirely from entering Israeli territorial waters, or perhaps even firing warning shots -- that I would have expected, but certainly not that people would get killed.

It seems to me that you are conflating two issues in order to have them conform to your conspiracy theory. Naturally the left, having organised the whole thing, would know approximately when the ships would enter Israeli territorial waters, and thus approximately when some sort of conflict with the Israeli military might occur (provided Israel decided to intervene). It is therefore conceivable that some people on the left may have taken the day off, quite their jobs early, or something because they knew that something would happen in the evening, whether a protest or a celebration. However, I seriously doubt that they had counted on Israel killing several people.

In short:
Did the left anticipate a confrontation with Israel? Most likely.
Did the left anticipate that Israel would kill several people aboard these ships? Well, the far-left looneys might have but the vast majority of the left would in all likelihood have anticipated a non-lethal ending.

Did the left anticipate that there might be some sort of gathering on the 31st of May or thereabout? Most likely, but whether it would be a protest against Israel having stopped the ships or a celebration of the ships having reached the target I doubt very few people would have dared to place and wagers on.
Did the left anticipate and prepare massive protest movements against Israel having killed several activists? Again, it is quite possible that this was seen as one outcome among manyt, but I dare say very few, if any, actually believed it was the most likely outcome.

I believe most people believed that the whole situation could be carried out peacefully, regardless of whether Israel decided to stop the ships or not. That Israel apparently sent specialists in non-lethal take-over indicates that they, too, believed this could be done, and that does the credit. It doesn't make those killed less dead, but I do believe this is something that should be made more widely known (I had not heard of it until Skeptic pointed it out), as it actually does indicate that Israel didn't plan what happened either.

I would also like to reiterate that the protest meeting I was at had 16 speakers. As far as I can remember, these were:
- The Communistic Party
- The Green Party
- The Socialist Party
- The Social Democratic Party
- The Left party
- Amnesty International
- Ship to Gaza
- The Swedish-Turkish Society
- The Palestine Group
- The Union of Swedish Muslims (1)
- The Conservative Party
- The Centre Party (neoliberal)
- The People's Party (liberal)
- The Church of Sweden
- Emmaus (a religious charity organisation)
- and one more that I can't remember at the moment.

ETA:
A friend jogged my memory and provided two more speakers:
- A society called JIPS, which means something like "Jews for a Peaceful Solution to the Palestine Question" or something, but we can't even remember anything more than the abbreviation in Swedish
- A group called FARA, which is a support group for activists who have been to conflict zones and need counseling, or for people whose friends and family have been to a conflict zone and who need someone to talk to.
This means that there were actually at least 17 speakers, and not 16 as I remembered, but my friend tells me that he recalls that they added some towards the end as more organisations felt the need to join in.
/ETA

You will notice that at least five of these are on the political right, and that another four are (at least officially) politically neutral. If there was a conspiracy to sacrifice Turkish citizens to fuel the outrage over Israel, then it has almost unanimous support across the political spectrum. It is not a leftist conspiracy.

---
(1) I am not actually sure what these three were called, as there were so many groups... if these names for the groups are wrong, they are at least reasonable estimates of what kinds of groups they were...

 

[Cleon]

I think you're rather afraid of what you'll find. Care to tell me what group you're talking about so I'll see who they are connected with? Just that you'll be clear whom, as a Jew, you're in bed with.

Except the thing is, I already know them. Personally. You do not.

So I have no interest in playing your little games.

 

[Pardalis]

Actually, you specifically said Atlanta. I even bolded it for you.

Because that's the example you gave. There were other demonstrations elsewhere, and for these people it was a work day.

But your age group explanation can account for alot of it.