Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

All Saints Day is Nov 1st
All Souls Day is Nov 2nd (Day of the Dead)

So, technically correct...and similar festivals, but different names for the two different days.

Once again:

NOT similar festivals with different names.

All Saints' specifically commemorates saints (Joan of Arc, St Francis, St Thomas etc etc). It's an almost-totally exclusively religious festival, with no public practices (parties, meals, gifts etc) associated with it.

All Souls specifically commemorates ALL those whose souls have departed the Earth. It's commemorated both religiously and secularly. Families usually visit the graves of their relatives, and hold a family meal, often with gift-exchanging.

The two festivals are totally not interchangeable, in either a religious or secular capacity. Secular Italians (or even non-devout Italian Catholics) are very happy that the 1st has been deemed a public holiday, but it's not (and has never been) a day on which celebrations of any type have taken place.

 

[Fiona]

As a point of general clarification of facts, this is wrong. All Saints' Day is strictly (and only) on 1st November. All Souls' Day is strictly (and only) commemorated on 2nd November. If the 3rd November is a weekday, there's never a public holiday. It just so happens that in 2007, 1st November fell on a Thursday and 2nd November on a Friday, so the public holidays segued directly into the weekend. It's fair to say, though, that many Italians choose to do what the French elegantly refer to as "faire le pont" ("make the bridge") if the 1st and 2nd fall on, say, a Wednesday and Thursday - i.e. they then take the Friday off as well to bridge into the weekend.

The "Fair of the Dead" in Perugia DOES always run from the 1st to around the 5th November. But this doesn't signify any elongation of All Saints'/All Souls' any more than a Christmas Market that might run in a German town for two weeks in December signifies an "elongation" of the Christmas celebration (i.e. Christmas is still SPECIFICALLY celebrated only on December 25th - and December 6th in some countries).

Well as I have said, it does represent an elongation of the period during which parties etc take place: at least in this country. Many things are fitted around work rather than on the actual day of the traditional holiday. Perhaps that is not true in Italy: but since your understanding of halloween in the uk is not quite accurate I am not so sure of your grasp of the position in Italy.

However, as others have said, it only matters if Curatolo said there were folk in masks so maybe we should stick to that before pursuing this?

 

[Fulcanelli]

His word for word statement has never been published and what he has said differs depending what newspaper you read. That is why using newspapers to claim Curatolo said X or Y as a fact in his initial statements is perilous and should be avoided. The only solid ground is to look at his court testimony and Judge Massei's Motivations Report, since the court was also privy to Curatolo's statements to police as well as his court testimony.

Fortunately also, PMF had it's own reporter 'stewart Home, attending the trial hearings at that time. Here is a post quoting an excerpt from one of his reports for PMF regarding Curatolo: http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=46386#p46386

For more, simply put in a search on PMF for posts by Stewart Home.

 

[Fulcanelli]

As a point of general clarification of facts, this is wrong. All Saints' Day is strictly (and only) on 1st November. All Souls' Day is strictly (and only) commemorated on 2nd November. If the 3rd November is a weekday, there's never a public holiday. It just so happens that in 2007, 1st November fell on a Thursday and 2nd November on a Friday, so the public holidays segued directly into the weekend. It's fair to say, though, that many Italians choose to do what the French elegantly refer to as "faire le pont" ("make the bridge") if the 1st and 2nd fall on, say, a Wednesday and Thursday - i.e. they then take the Friday off as well to bridge into the weekend.

The "Fair of the Dead" in Perugia DOES always run from the 1st to around the 5th November. But this doesn't signify any elongation of All Saints'/All Souls' any more than a Christmas Market that might run in a German town for two weeks in December signifies an "elongation" of the Christmas celebration (i.e. Christmas is still SPECIFICALLY celebrated only on December 25th - and December 6th in some countries).

The whole 'period' is a holiday and is all connected. A bit like our Christmas holidays. And please, you don't even live in Italy, so stop styling yourself as some sort of expert, it's getting rather irritating.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Just to add: I don't live in Italy, but I AM sure that 1) Halloween is celebrated there - particularly (and perhaps exclusively) by the young; and 2) It's always celebrated there (as elsewhere) specifically on 31st October.

It's funny, but most of the Italians I've spoken about it with don't seem to agree with you.

 

[bucketoftea]

Amazer,

Elizabeth Johnson and Greg Hampikian were consultants for the defense team (I posted a link on Dr. Hampikian a couple of weeks ago). They and Dan Krane, another signer of the open letter, asked the defense lawyers to ask the prosecution to release the electronic data files, according to Jason Gilder, also a signer of the letter. These files are the basis for creating the DNA electropherograms, such as the one reproduced in the open letter, but the prosecution refused to release them. Some of the problems the letter noted with DNA evidence, the weak intensity of the knife electropherogram for example, are obvious from paper copies. But other things cannot be addressed without each expert starting with the raw data. Once the electropherograms get locked into paper form, it represents someone’s interpretation, not the data sets themselves. The analysis of DNA mixtures is an area in which one would expect experts to disagree.

I have heard arguments to the effect that we should believe the prosecution’s expert witnesses over the defense’s witnesses because they had access to all of the data. This argument never cut any ice with me with respect to DNA. The prosecution could easily rectify this situation by releasing this information, and this would level the playing field.

halides1

You say the open letter asked the defense lawyers to ask for the data.
Did they ask? Or did they disregard the meddling?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Data not turned over

You say the open letter asked the defense lawyers to ask for the data.
Did they ask? Or did they disregard the meddling?

I am not sure what you mean; asking is not meddling. The defense did ask, and the prosecution said no.

 

[Matthew Best]

No, Guising was traditional in Scotland, Northern England and Ireland long before "trick-or-treating"was popular in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guising

That's fascinating, but Perugia is not in Scotland, or Northern England, or Ireland.

 

[Alt+F4]

I am not sure what you mean; asking is not meddling. The defense did ask, and the prosecution said no.

Is this refusal part of Amanda's appeal?

 

[Fiona]

The defense asked the court for the information. The prosesution agreed to release it.The judge ordered the files be released by a certain date. The defence did not claim that the order was not complied with. If it was not complied with then why would they not draw that to the court's attention? If you claim that they did do that then can you cite please: because all I have seen is a claim they did not have enough time to review those files.

You keep asserting this Halides1: you do it as if it is established fact. But repeating something does not confer that status so unless there is something which you have posted in the last two weeks and which I have missed the ball is still in your court, so far as I can see.

 

[Fiona]

That's fascinating, but Perugia is not in Scotland, or Northern England, or Ireland.

No it isn't: but since Londonjohn does not know what happens in the uk, despite his name, then I am a little less confident that he knows what happens in Italy because he does not live there as I had assumed.

 

[Matthew Best]

No it isn't: but since Londonjohn does not know what happens in the uk, despite his name, then I am a little less confident that he knows what happens in Italy because he does not live there as I had assumed.

He's right about the UK generally - it appears that up north you have some weird habits that we don't in the civilised bits.

 

[Fiona]

He's right about the UK generally - it appears that up north you have some weird habits that we don't in the civilised bits.

There is the possibility of regional variation in Italy too. My point stands

 

[Agatha]

That's fascinating, but Perugia is not in Scotland, or Northern England, or Ireland.

Funnily enough, I am aware of that. I was correcting LondonJohn's erroneous assertion that "the practice of CELEBRATING Halloween in a specific manner - i.e. dressing up in ghoulish costumes, parties, trick-or-treating etc. - IS a US-originated tradition. At least, that's where most of Europe has assimilated it from. Until around the 1960s, it was unheard of to engage in such behaviour in the UK on October 31st, even though the festival of Halloween had been in recognised existence for centuries before."

He was wrong in his assertion, so you may perhaps be at the wrong poster.

 

[Matthew Best]

I never heard of anyone trick-or-treating in the UK until comparatively recently, and I have lived here all my life.

 

[Agatha]

I never heard of anyone trick-or-treating in the UK until comparatively recently, and I have lived here all my life.

Argument from incredulity? When I was little in the 60s we went guising when we visited relatives in Scotland; it wasn't traditional in London where I grew up. When I moved to Yorkshire, my parents-in-law told me of the guising fun they had as children.

 

[Matthew Best]

Argument from incredulity? When I was little in the 60s we went guising when we visited relatives in Scotland; it wasn't traditional in London where I grew up. When I moved to Yorkshire, my parents-in-law told me of the guising fun they had as children.

I grew up in London, and my suspicion is that LondonJohn is from somewhere near here also. I can't tell you why I suspect that, it's just an unfounded suspicion I have.

 

[Fulcanelli]

I am not sure what you mean; asking is not meddling. The defense did ask, and the prosecution said no.

The prosecution did not say 'No'. Please provide us with a cite of where they ever did. The prosecution actually said 'Yes' and handed over the rest of what they had, which wasn't much, not really relevant and didn't help the defence. The defence asked if there was more and Comodi stated "They have everything, there is nothing else.".

 

[Amazer]

I grew up in London, and my suspicion is that LondonJohn is from somewhere near here also. I can't tell you why I suspect that, it's just an unfounded suspicion I have.

Don't let your suspicions get the better of you Matthew... next thing you know you'll be a lecherous old man, harboring fantasies about imprisoning young American women.

 

[Matthew Best]

Don't let your suspicions get the better of you Matthew... next thing you know you'll be a lecherous old man, harboring fantasies about imprisoning young American women.

Fulcanelli has already implied that I'm a lecherous old man - which is why I have him on ignore, a policy I strongly recommend to anyone who wants to filter out the insults which seem to be his stock-in-trade.