Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Amazer]

If the shoeprint that is at the hinge end of the door is the left foot, it can be facing down the hall without meaning that the right foot was facing down the hall at the same time. If we have no right shoeprint because that shoe was not bloody, then it is entirely possible Rudy backed out of the room and stood in front of the door and locked the door, with his left foot facing down the hall and his right foot facing toward the door.

I'd call this wishful thinking. It certainly might be physically possible but it's unnatural to the largest extend possible.

Other than that scenario and the scenario in which the police washed up the shoeprints immediately in front of the door, I don't see how we can explain where the right shoeprint would have been.

Perhaps it would have been where a person would leave it if they leave the room without closing and locking the door. It's just that it didn't leave print because it wasn't bloody.

 

[Fulcanelli]

This leads us to another question, though. If the first print in the hall is Rudy's right foot, then is there a left shoeprint of his just inside the bedroom door?

The area just inside the door seems clean of prints. Perhaps that is one of the areas cleaned by Raffaele and Amanda? This would make sense, for if they stepped in blood and needed to go to the bathroom to clean their feet, they would have had to clean their prints heading out the room as well as down the corridor to the bathroom. Rudy's prints in that area may have been collateral damage of that.

The alternative scenario was that there was something laying on the floor that Rudy stepped on as he went out instead of the floor. This is possible since we know some things were moved around in the room after Rudy had left.

 

[Mary_H]

The area just inside the door seems clean of prints. Perhaps that is one of the areas cleaned by Raffaele and Amanda? This would make sense, for if they stepped in blood and needed to go to the bathroom to clean their feet, they would have had to clean their prints heading out the room as well as down the corridor to the bathroom. Rudy's prints in that area may have been collateral damage of that.

Then one would think they would have removed that one obvious footprint of Amanda's at the same time. Or that there would have been evidence of a cleaning, like streaks on the floor, or bloody cleaning materials to be found somewhere. And if they were aware of their footprints just inside the bedroom door and in the hallway, how did they miss the footprint in the lighted bathroom?

The alternative scenario was that there was something laying on the floor that Rudy stepped on as he went out instead of the floor. This is possible since we know some things were moved around in the room after Rudy had left.

Do you think there could have been something lying on the floor that Rudy made a visible footprint on that wouldn't have been noticed or taken in by the police? It would have been the bloodiest footprint of all, since it was still inside the room.

 

[LondonJohn]

Google translate shows you're correct when I input just "mascherati"...however, when I put in the full sentence, I get a more general "dressed" (appears to read closer to "costumed" when context is taken into account)...

Then google translate is mistaken when the adjective "mascherati" is placed within a larger number of words. "Mascherati" ONLY means "masked" - either in the explicit sense of "wearing a mask" or in the more metaphorical sense of "concealed" (e.g. "his emotion was well masked"). Clearly here it means the former - it means that the people were literally wearing masks.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Then one would think they would have removed that one obvious footprint of Amanda's at the same time. Or that there would have been evidence of a cleaning, like streaks on the floor, or bloody cleaning materials to be found somewhere. And if they were aware of their footprints just inside the bedroom door and in the hallway, how did they miss the footprint in the lighted bathroom?

What one obvious footprint of Amanda's? You've lost me there.

Streaks from cleaning? I think you're asking more of luminol then it can deliver, especially on a floor that has all sorts of patterns in the form of blood...there were smears everywhere.

As for rags...rags can be thrown away (I often wonder what happened to the empty plastic bag Amanda took with her to the cottage for...'laundry'). Or, they could have just been flushed down the toilet if they used toilet paper or paper kitchen towels (which would have been my first choice).

As for missing the print on the mat, we've been over this, just recently in fact.

Do you think there could have been something lying on the floor that Rudy made a visible footprint on that wouldn't have been noticed or taken in by the police? It would have been the bloodiest footprint of all, since it was still inside the room.

It depends on many factors...what the material was, whether it was light, dark or made up of various patterns/colours, whether it was scrunched up at the time for example.

 

[Fulcanelli]

Then google translate is mistaken when the adjective "mascherati" is placed within a larger number of words. "Mascherati" ONLY means "masked" - either in the explicit sense of "wearing a mask" or in the more metaphorical sense of "concealed" (e.g. "his emotion was well masked"). Clearly here it means the former - it means that the people were literally wearing masks.

Curatolo did not testify about anyone wearing masks.

 

[LondonJohn]

And it's wrong. Curatolo made no mention of masks, Halloween or otherwise in his testimony. Your primary source should be the testimony he gave on the stand and Massei's Report where he addresses Curatolo's testimony.

If the quote from Curatolo's witness statement is correct, he does mention masks specifically. And it also casts an interesting light on what he said in court testimony. Could it be...COULD IT BE....that he was "helped" by the police and prosecutors to tighten up his testimony between the time that he gave his first witness statements and the time he appeared on the stand. Clearly, what he said in court seemed reliable and accurate. But it also seems to be very much at odds with what he said in his original witness statements.

If what I've said above is correct, then it should have been pretty simple for the defence to discredit (or at least cast significant doubts) over his reliability and accuracy. And if what I said above is correct, then since Culatolo seemingly WASN'T discredited on the stand, I have serious doubts over the competency of AK/RS's defence teams regarding their trial performance in this area. However, I can't see it not being an issue at appeal (if this apparent discrepancy in Culatolo's original witness statement is correct).

 

[LondonJohn]

Bruce, go back and read your reply to Fulcanelli again.

Italy doesn't celebrate Halloween. So the mask wearing would not have been on Oct 31st as you assert.

Given Curatolo's testimony does, in fact, include references to people in costumes, I think you're both a bit wrong on this one.

Fulcanelli - costumes were mentioned by Curatolo, whether masks were specifically mentioned or not
Bruce - costumes mean it was Nov 1st or 2nd, not Oct 31st (not sure if Nov 2nd is celebrated the same as Nov 1st, regardless, the mentioning of costumes does not cast this testimony into the "errant" category)


ETA: Fulcanelli, can you post the actual transcript of Curatolo's testimony? (Translated and untranslated would be a plus)

ERMMMMMMMMMMMM

Yes, Italy (or at least younger people in Italy) DOES celebrate Halloween. Maybe you'd like to edit this post, which was made with totally inappropriate certitude.

The Catholic church does not, of course, recognise Halloween, and in fact discourages its "celebration". It's primarily a US-originated festival, but has been growing in popularity throughout Europe over the past few decades. Read this for more info on Halloween in Italy:

http://www.lifeinitaly.com/culture/halloween.asp

I speak from personal experience here, as a lapsed Catholic with some knowledge of Halloween celebrations in continental Europe (and of course in the UK). It's rocketed in popularity recently - partly as an assimilation of American culture in general, and partly (in more Catholic countries such as Italy) as a minor rebellion against the established church.

The practice of dressing up in ghoulish costumes and going out partying ONLY applies to the relatively new (in Italy) festival of Halloween - i.e. the evening of the 31st October. Conversely, the traditional "Day of the Dead" - 2nd November - is marked only by visiting dead relatives' graves, and gathering together as a family for meals and gift giving. There is absolutely NO tradition of wearing ghoulish costumes on this day - in fact, to do so would be considered extremely disrespectful and almost immoral.

So, people should stop jumping to any sorts of conclusions that "Day of the Dead" in any way implies partying in costumes etc. It's a sober holiday that is still almost universally respected in Italy - even amongst the young. I guarantee that on the evening of November 2nd 2007, there would not have been groups of people wandering round Perugia dressed as witches, vampires or ghouls of any kind. And I can be almost as certain that people wouldn't be wearing such costumes on 1st November either.

To cut a long story short: The ONLY night on which people in Perugia would (or could) have been wearing ghoulish masks or costumes in any number would be October 31st.

 

[Fulcanelli]

If the quote from Curatolo's witness statement is correct, he does mention masks specifically. And it also casts an interesting light on what he said in court testimony. Could it be...COULD IT BE....that he was "helped" by the police and prosecutors to tighten up his testimony between the time that he gave his first witness statements and the time he appeared on the stand. Clearly, what he said in court seemed reliable and accurate. But it also seems to be very much at odds with what he said in his original witness statements.

If what I've said above is correct, then it should have been pretty simple for the defence to discredit (or at least cast significant doubts) over his reliability and accuracy. And if what I said above is correct, then since Culatolo seemingly WASN'T discredited on the stand, I have serious doubts over the competency of AK/RS's defence teams regarding their trial performance in this area. However, I can't see it not being an issue at appeal (if this apparent discrepancy in Culatolo's original witness statement is correct).

Like I'm telling you, the quote is not correct.

And Bongiourno herself, one of the best lawyers in Italy, cross examined Curatolo on the stand. Curatolo actually made her look a fool.

 

[quadraginta]

Like I'm telling you, the quote is not correct.

And Bongiourno herself, one of the best lawyers in Italy, cross examined Curatolo on the stand. Curatolo actually made her look a fool.

Perhaps she was part of the Great Conspiracy. It seems to attract all the best people.

 

[LondonJohn]

According to this (first google link I found), Perguia celebrates All Saints Day:

http://www.italytravelescape.com/events-festivals-perugia.htm


And this site (appears to be official Perugia Tourism site, but I could be mistaken) shows that Nov 1st, All Saints Day is a public holiday (scroll to calender list at bottom right of front page):

http://www.perugiaonline.com/oraripgus.html


(a little more research, and it looks like this site is hosted by an Italian advertising company. Official or not, it shows that Perugia celebrates All Saints Day. Whether Halloween is celebrated or not remains to be proven)

I'm sorry, but once again you're clutching at straws to try to support an unsupportable argument (in my view). I would make the following observations.

1) Italy (particularly the younger generation) DOES celebrate Halloween.

2) What do you think were the purposes of the parties which AK, RS and Meredith herself attended on 31st October 2007? The were HALLOWEEN parties. Do you not remember the photos of Meredith dressed as a vampire on 31st October, which also showed many others in ghoulish costume?

3) The Day of the Dead, on 2nd November, is held to commemorate those that have ascended to heaven (in Catholic doctrine). It doesn't involve - and has never involved - the wearing of ghoulish masks, costumes or anything else. People traditionally visit the graves of dead relatives, and it's usual to have a family get-together where there's a commemorative meal and where gifts are sometimes handed out. It's most certainly NOT treated as a celebration of any kind.

4) All Saints' Day - 1st November - is just as the title suggests: a day to celebrate all those who have been elevated to sainthood (incidentally, whoever posted that All Saints was to celebrate those in heaven, and All Souls was to commemorate all those in hell, was incorrect).

5) There are no public or familial celebrations on All Saints' Day. It's more-or-less purely a religious celebration. More observant Catholics go to church on this day to pray for the saints, but there are no meals, parties or anything similar. This is why Perugia was so quiet on 1st November 2007.

Please understand that I'm certain of what I write here. I'm bemused by people's efforts to "interpret" things in a way that suits their own purpose. What I've written above are the facts of the matter. They require no interpretation.

 

[Fiona]

ERMMMMMMMMMMMM

Yes, Italy (or at least younger people in Italy) DOES celebrate Halloween. Maybe you'd like to edit this post, which was made with totally inappropriate certitude.

The Catholic church does not, of course, recognise Halloween, and in fact discourages its "celebration". It's primarily a US-originated festival, but has been growing in popularity throughout Europe over the past few decades. Read this for more info on Halloween in Italy:

http://www.lifeinitaly.com/culture/halloween.asp

I speak from personal experience here, as a lapsed Catholic with some knowledge of Halloween celebrations in continental Europe (and of course in the UK). It's rocketed in popularity recently - partly as an assimilation of American culture in general, and partly (in more Catholic countries such as Italy) as a minor rebellion against the established church.

The practice of dressing up in ghoulish costumes and going out partying ONLY applies to the relatively new (in Italy) festival of Halloween - i.e. the evening of the 31st October. Conversely, the traditional "Day of the Dead" - 2nd November - is marked only by visiting dead relatives' graves, and gathering together as a family for meals and gift giving. There is absolutely NO tradition of wearing ghoulish costumes on this day - in fact, to do so would be considered extremely disrespectful and almost immoral.

So, people should stop jumping to any sorts of conclusions that "Day of the Dead" in any way implies partying in costumes etc. It's a sober holiday that is still almost universally respected in Italy - even amongst the young. I guarantee that on the evening of November 2nd 2007, there would not have been groups of people wandering round Perugia dressed as witches, vampires or ghouls of any kind. And I can be almost as certain that people wouldn't be wearing such costumes on 1st November either.

To cut a long story short: The ONLY night on which people in Perugia would (or could) have been wearing ghoulish masks or costumes in any number would be October 31st.

Halloween is not American originated: it is, I believe, Scottish and Irish. Though it is dying out in Scotland, at least around here and I think more widely too.

But it is true that it is growing in England, as I understand it: and there are many articles on the web which say it is growing in Italy as well. Perhaps it is a transitional phase? I seem to remember that Sollecito did not want to participate, and he seemed to think it childish: though some of the blogs I have read have stated that in Italy is is primarily a festival observed by adults and not children, as in America and formerly in Scotland. In any case, in England if there are Halloween parties for adults they are more likely to happen on the closest weekend precisely because it is not traditional there. Or at least that is my impression.

If Halloween is not traditional in Italy, as the blogs claim, then I do not know why celebrating it would be tied to the specific night of Halloween. Possibly because the first is a holiday, and so parties would be more likely the day before that holiday most years: but in 2007 it was a long weekend and so that constraint did not apply. And as I understand it the 1st is a family day still: with family meals and stuff expected. So from that point of view freedom to party on the 31st is not quite so obvious. I think that is still true in Perugia, merely because it has been reported that the town was quiet because people were away visiting family (like the boys downstairs) and that is why Lumumba's bar was quiet. There were a lot of foreigners in Perugia of course, and many would celebrate Halloween (being students they would probably celebrate most anything ): but again, here, traditional occasions are not nearly so tied to the actual day as they used to be: Xmas is on Xmas for family get togethers, for example: but Xmas parties are never on Xmas day and seldom on Xmas eve or boxing day. Hogmanay is on Hogmanay and it does not move: but there are lots of parties with the trappings around that time.

If you live there and are sure then I bow to your experience of course. That trumps changes I see here and elsewhere, no question

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh, and incidentally, the "Fair of the Dead" in Perugia is a traditional fair held since the middle ages. It runs throughout the whole first five days of November. The reason why it starts on the 1st (All Saints) is that the 1st is a National Holiday. However, the "Fair of the Dead" has nothing to do with All Saints - instead it's to do with the following day - All Souls, i.e, the Day of the Dead, i.e. 2nd November. It just happens to START on All Saints' Day, for reasons that I've just given above. It finishes on the 5th November (or thereabouts).

By the way, I believe this the fair that Filomena & boyfriend were on their way to on the morning of the 2nd - i.e. All Souls' Day.

 

[LondonJohn]

Halloween is not American originated: it is, I believe, Scottish and Irish. Though it is dying out in Scotland, at least around here and I think more widely too.

But it is true that it is growing in England, as I understand it: and there are many articles on the web which say it is growing in Italy as well. Perhaps it is a transitional phase? I seem to remember that Sollecito did not want to participate, and he seemed to think it childish: though some of the blogs I have read have stated that in Italy is is primarily a festival observed by adults and not children, as in America and formerly in Scotland.

If Halloween is not traditional in Italy, as the blogs claim, then I do not know why celebrating it would be tied to the specific night of Halloween. Possibly because the first is a holiday, and so parties would be more likely the day before that holiday most years: but in 2007 it was a long weekend and so that constraint did not apply. And as I understand it the 1st is a family day still: with family meals and stuff expected. So from that point of view freedom to part on the 31st is not quite so obvious. I think that is still true in Perugia merely because it has been reported that the town was quiet because people were away visiting family (like the boys downstairs) and that is why Lumumba's bar was quiet. There were a lot of foreigners in Perugia of course, and many would celebrate Halloween (being students they would probably celebrate most anything ): but again, here, traditional occasions are not nearly so tied to the actual day as they used to be: Xmas is on Xmas for family get togethers, for example: but Xmas parties are never on Xmas day and seldom on Xmas eve or boxing day. Hogmanay is on Hogmanay and it does not move: but there are lots of parties with the trappings around that time.

If you live there and are sure then I bow to your experience of course. That trumps changes I see here and elsewhere, no question

I didn't mean that Halloween itself originated in the USA - but sorry if there was an element of ambiguity in my post that suggested otherwise. Indeed, it's a Pagan festival (or based on a Pagan festival) dating back to the dark ages.

What I meant was that the practice of CELEBRATING Halloween in a specific manner - i.e. dressing up in ghoulish costumes, parties, trick-or-treating etc. - IS a US-originated tradition. At least, that's where most of Europe has assimilated it from. Until around the 1960s, it was unheard of to engage in such behaviour in the UK on October 31st, even though the festival of Halloween had been in recognised existence for centuries before.

 

[LondonJohn]

Halloween is not American originated: it is, I believe, Scottish and Irish. Though it is dying out in Scotland, at least around here and I think more widely too.

But it is true that it is growing in England, as I understand it: and there are many articles on the web which say it is growing in Italy as well. Perhaps it is a transitional phase? I seem to remember that Sollecito did not want to participate, and he seemed to think it childish: though some of the blogs I have read have stated that in Italy is is primarily a festival observed by adults and not children, as in America and formerly in Scotland. In any case, in England if there are Halloween parties for adults they are more likely to happen on the closest weekend precisely because it is not traditional there. Or at least that is my impression.

If Halloween is not traditional in Italy, as the blogs claim, then I do not know why celebrating it would be tied to the specific night of Halloween. Possibly because the first is a holiday, and so parties would be more likely the day before that holiday most years: but in 2007 it was a long weekend and so that constraint did not apply. And as I understand it the 1st is a family day still: with family meals and stuff expected. So from that point of view freedom to party on the 31st is not quite so obvious. I think that is still true in Perugia, merely because it has been reported that the town was quiet because people were away visiting family (like the boys downstairs) and that is why Lumumba's bar was quiet. There were a lot of foreigners in Perugia of course, and many would celebrate Halloween (being students they would probably celebrate most anything ): but again, here, traditional occasions are not nearly so tied to the actual day as they used to be: Xmas is on Xmas for family get togethers, for example: but Xmas parties are never on Xmas day and seldom on Xmas eve or boxing day. Hogmanay is on Hogmanay and it does not move: but there are lots of parties with the trappings around that time.

If you live there and are sure then I bow to your experience of course. That trumps changes I see here and elsewhere, no question

Just to add: I don't live in Italy, but I AM sure that 1) Halloween is celebrated there - particularly (and perhaps exclusively) by the young; and 2) It's always celebrated there (as elsewhere) specifically on 31st October.

 

[Fiona]

I didn't mean that Halloween itself originated in the USA - but sorry if there was an element of ambiguity in my post that suggested otherwise. Indeed, it's a Pagan festival (or based on a Pagan festival) dating back to the dark ages.

What I meant was that the practice of CELEBRATING Halloween in a specific manner - i.e. dressing up in ghoulish costumes, parties, trick-or-treating etc. - IS a US-originated tradition. At least, that's where most of Europe has assimilated it from. Until around the 1960s, it was unheard of to engage in such behaviour in the UK on October 31st, even though the festival of Halloween had been in recognised existence for centuries before.

That part is nonsense unless you do not think Scotland is part of the UK, sorry .Trick or treating does seem to be american: but as I say the tradition is dying out here and so I have not seen that much. Guising was very strongly part of Halloween here until quite recently and it always has been so far as I know

 

[LondonJohn]

Fine, be pedantic


Regardless, Nov 1st is celebrated - therefore, the argument presented by Bruce, that Curatolo's mentioning of masks/costumes in his testimony is inconsistent with the night of the murder, is false.

This is absolutely remarkable dissembling of the facts! In order for your position to have any logical validity, it would be necessary to establish that people routinely go out on the evening of All Saints' Day wearing masks and costumes. Your post seems to blithely assume that this is a possibility (if not a probability).

But, instead, I can tell you that it's a MASSIVE improbability. I can say with near-100% certainly that in Perugia, on the evening of 1st November 2007, there would not have been groups of people in ghoulish masks or costumes wandering around (I'd actually venture to suggest that there wouldn't have been a SINGLE person dressed in this way on this day).

I can also say with near-100% certainty that there would not have been people dressed in this way in Perugia on 2nd November, but this is obviously less directly relevant.

The FACT is this: if Curatolo thought (at some point) that on the crucial evening in his recall there were lots of people wandering around wearing ghoulish costumes and masks, then this can ONLY have applied to 31st October. And I stand full-square behind this very assertive position.

 

[Agatha]

What I meant was that the practice of CELEBRATING Halloween in a specific manner - i.e. dressing up in ghoulish costumes, parties, trick-or-treating etc. - IS a US-originated tradition. At least, that's where most of Europe has assimilated it from. Until around the 1960s, it was unheard of to engage in such behaviour in the UK on October 31st, even though the festival of Halloween had been in recognised existence for centuries before.

No, Guising was traditional in Scotland, Northern England and Ireland long before "trick-or-treating"was popular in America.

In Scotland and parts of northern England, a similar tradition is called guising because of the disguises or costumes worn by the children.[31] Although traditions of seasonal guising stretch back at least as far as the Middle Ages, it wasn't until the late 19th century that Halloween had a strong tradition of "guising" - Scottish and Irish children disguised in costumes going from door to door for food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guising

 

[Agatha]

However, if Curatalo's witness statement doesn't mention masks, all that is merely an interesting aside!

Do we have a transcript of Curatalo's statement rather than newspaper reports of it? As I think we've seen with RS's diary, newspapers paraphrase and things are lost or added in translation.

 

[LondonJohn]

Well, when Amanda phoned Filomena on the 2nd, Filomena was actually attending the Fair of the Dead at the time.

In truth, the whole holiday (which covers several days) is actually in celebration of the Day of the Dead 'Il Giorno dei Morti'. It's also been extended further by foreign students bringing over the celebration of Halloween. So, while the calendar may be day specific, culturally it's more a 'period' of time.

As a point of general clarification of facts, this is wrong. All Saints' Day is strictly (and only) on 1st November. All Souls' Day is strictly (and only) commemorated on 2nd November. If the 3rd November is a weekday, there's never a public holiday. It just so happens that in 2007, 1st November fell on a Thursday and 2nd November on a Friday, so the public holidays segued directly into the weekend. It's fair to say, though, that many Italians choose to do what the French elegantly refer to as "faire le pont" ("make the bridge") if the 1st and 2nd fall on, say, a Wednesday and Thursday - i.e. they then take the Friday off as well to bridge into the weekend.

The "Fair of the Dead" in Perugia DOES always run from the 1st to around the 5th November. But this doesn't signify any elongation of All Saints'/All Souls' any more than a Christmas Market that might run in a German town for two weeks in December signifies an "elongation" of the Christmas celebration (i.e. Christmas is still SPECIFICALLY celebrated only on December 25th - and December 6th in some countries).