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Continuation - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Come to think of it, the MacDonald case offers some interesting parallels. I wonder if the people who believe that Knox would not have been convicted in the U.S. consider that trial to be a miscarriage of justice?

With respect to media coverage, the case with the most intriguing parallel is probably Darlie Routier's (a thread about her case could be subtitled "guilty - all because of silly string")

What's different with the Kercher murder is that Knox has gotten both favorable and unfavorable press coverage, and it seems inarguable that exposure to one "side" or another has really colored people's interpretation of the evidence.
 
Originally Posted by katy did
I think this was in Frank's post on Knox's appeal. Curatolo mentioned buses ferrying people to and from town in his testimony, but apparently those buses weren't running on 1 November. So the defence have produced evidence of that for the appeal (a witness who works for the bus company, from memory). Originally Curatolo also said there were students in the square wearing Halloween masks, so sounds as if whatever he saw it may have happened on 31 October, rather than the night of the murder.

Fulcanelli: "Halloween masks were never a pasrt of his testimony. However, the claim that it was is a favourite hobby horse of Candace Dempsey. 'nuff said."
____________________________________________________________

This is another outright lie by Fulcanelli. He tries very hard to discredit Candace Dempsey but fails every time. I am not sure why he feels the need to constantly attack Candace.

Here is the truth about Curatolo's testimony.

Toto (Curatolo) clearly states that he saw masks and students disguised as witches on the night that he supposedly saw Amanda and Raffaele casing the cottage from Piazza Grimana (a physical impossibility by the way). Meaning it had to be Halloween night, not November 1.

Here Toto speaks of students in masks, in black clothes or dressed as witches (streghe). Again, these are Toto's exact words, drawn from his witness statement.

"Mentre mi alzavo, mi sono accorto che i due ragazzi non piu'. Se ne erano andanti via, ma io non ne ero accorto. Preciso che erano passati davanti a me e quindi credo siano scesi verso via della Pergola. Mentre leggevo, infatti io, di tanto in tanto sollevavo lo sguardo per guardare gli studente mascherati o vestiti di nero o da streghe o anche per fumarmi una sigaretta e nella zona che potevo vedere io, do via Pinturicchio all universita per strainieri, passando l'Arco Etrusco , non notai transitare i due ragazzi."

This was written about in Corriere Dell'Umbria, the local Perugia paper, by Elio Bertoldi. Like Candace, He has the original witness statement and quoted directly from it in his article.

Toto is not a reliable witness.
 
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Originally Posted by katy did
I think this was in Frank's post on Knox's appeal. Curatolo mentioned buses ferrying people to and from town in his testimony, but apparently those buses weren't running on 1 November. So the defence have produced evidence of that for the appeal (a witness who works for the bus company, from memory). Originally Curatolo also said there were students in the square wearing Halloween masks, so sounds as if whatever he saw it may have happened on 31 October, rather than the night of the murder.

Fulcanelli: "Halloween masks were never a pasrt of his testimony. However, the claim that it was is a favourite hobby horse of Candace Dempsey. 'nuff said."
____________________________________________________________

This is another outright lie by Fulcanelli. He tries very hard to discredit Candace Dempsey but fails every time. I am not sure why he feels the need to constantly attack Candace.

Here is the truth about Curatolo's testimony.

Toto (Curatolo) clearly states that he saw masks and students disguised as witches on the night that he supposedly saw Amanda and Raffaele casing the cottage from Piazza Grimana (a physical impossibility by the way). Meaning it had to be Halloween night, not November 1.

Here Toto speaks of students in masks, in black clothes or dressed as witches (streghe). Again, these are Toto's exact words, drawn from his witness statement.

"Mentre mi alzavo, mi sono accorto che i due ragazzi non piu'. Se ne erano andanti via, ma io non ne ero accorto. Preciso che erano passati davanti a me e quindi credo siano scesi verso via della Pergola. Mentre leggevo, infatti io, di tanto in tanto sollevavo lo sguardo per guardare gli studente mascherati o vestiti di nero o da streghe o anche per fumarmi una sigaretta e nella zona che potevo vedere io, do via Pinturicchio all universita per strainieri, passando l'Arco Etrusco , non notai transitare i due ragazzi."

This was written about in Corriere Dell'Umbria, the local Perugia paper, by Elio Bertoldi. Like Candace, He has the original witness statement and quoted directly from it in his article.

Toto is not a reliable witness.

___________________

Ummmm. Bruce, so exactly where is the reference to MASKS in his testimony?
Maybe someone fluent in Italian can help.
 
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I'm sure it's normal for people to be dressed as witches every day in Perugia....

I think Mascherati=masked (V).
 
I'm sure it's normal for people to be dressed as witches every day in Perugia....

I think Mascherati=masked (V).

Google translate shows you're correct when I input just "mascherati"...however, when I put in the full sentence, I get a more general "dressed" (appears to read closer to "costumed" when context is taken into account)...
 
Google translate shows you're correct when I input just "mascherati"...however, when I put in the full sentence, I get a more general "dressed" (appears to read closer to "costumed" when context is taken into account)...

______________________

Well, if people were so "costumed," or "masked" might they do that to celebrate November 1 (All Saints Day) or ---post midnight---November 2 (All Souls Day)? Both seem to be holidays celebrating ghosts, so to speak..

///
 
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______________________

Well, if people were so "costumed," or "masked" might they do that to celebrate November 1 (All Souls Day) or ---post midnight---November 2 (All Souls Day)? Both seem to be holidays celebrating ghosts, so to speak..

///

I'm not following you. All Souls Day is on the 2nd (unless my Jewish raised brain is confused). You have all Souls Day on two days if I'm reading you right.
 
______________________

Well, if people were so "costumed," or "masked" might they do that to celebrate November 1 (All Souls Day) or ---post midnight---November 2 (All Souls Day)? Both seem to be holidays celebrating ghosts, so to speak..

///

I agree here. While here in the US we celebrate All Hallows Eve (Halloween) on Oct 31, other Countries actually celebrate Nov 1st and Nov 2nd (All Saints Day and All Souls Day, respectively). Therefore, seeing masked/costumed people in and around Perugia would actually help to corroborate the testimony (technically, could still have been Nov 2nd if costumes are worn then as well).
 
I agree here. While here in the US we celebrate All Hallows Eve (Halloween) on Oct 31, other Countries actually celebrate Nov 1st and Nov 2nd (All Saints Day and All Souls Day, respectively). Therefore, seeing masked/costumed people in and around Perugia would actually help to corroborate the testimony (technically, could still have been Nov 2nd if costumes are worn then as well).

The question is what is customary in Perugia.

Edit: Doesn't the first testimony refer to people "dressed as witches"? Is that something that they do in Perugia on All Soul's Day?
 
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I'm not following you. All Souls Day is on the 2nd (unless my Jewish raised brain is confused). You have all Souls Day on two days if I'm reading you right.

________________

I stand corrected. Nov 1 is ALL SAINTS DAY. Nov 2 is All Souls Day.
The first devoted to the souls in heaven, the second devoted to the souls in Purgatory. I have so edited my original post. Thank you.

///
 
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It is very clear that Toto had his days confused. Fulcanelli tries to hide this fact. He knows as well as Fine that Toto is not credible.

Fine jumps in about the masks. It is clear that Fulcanelli is claiming that Toto never talked about costumes, confusing the day. If Fulcanelli would like to clarify his position that would be great.
 
Originally Posted by katy did
I think this was in Frank's post on Knox's appeal. Curatolo mentioned buses ferrying people to and from town in his testimony, but apparently those buses weren't running on 1 November. So the defence have produced evidence of that for the appeal (a witness who works for the bus company, from memory). Originally Curatolo also said there were students in the square wearing Halloween masks, so sounds as if whatever he saw it may have happened on 31 October, rather than the night of the murder.

Fulcanelli: "Halloween masks were never a pasrt of his testimony. However, the claim that it was is a favourite hobby horse of Candace Dempsey. 'nuff said."
____________________________________________________________

This is another outright lie by Fulcanelli. He tries very hard to discredit Candace Dempsey but fails every time. I am not sure why he feels the need to constantly attack Candace.

Here is the truth about Curatolo's testimony.

Toto (Curatolo) clearly states that he saw masks and students disguised as witches on the night that he supposedly saw Amanda and Raffaele casing the cottage from Piazza Grimana (a physical impossibility by the way). Meaning it had to be Halloween night, not November 1.

Here Toto speaks of students in masks, in black clothes or dressed as witches (streghe). Again, these are Toto's exact words, drawn from his witness statement.

"Mentre mi alzavo, mi sono accorto che i due ragazzi non piu'. Se ne erano andanti via, ma io non ne ero accorto. Preciso che erano passati davanti a me e quindi credo siano scesi verso via della Pergola. Mentre leggevo, infatti io, di tanto in tanto sollevavo lo sguardo per guardare gli studente mascherati o vestiti di nero o da streghe o anche per fumarmi una sigaretta e nella zona che potevo vedere io, do via Pinturicchio all universita per strainieri, passando l'Arco Etrusco , non notai transitare i due ragazzi."

This was written about in Corriere Dell'Umbria, the local Perugia paper, by Elio Bertoldi. Like Candace, He has the original witness statement and quoted directly from it in his article.

Toto is not a reliable witness.


And it's wrong. Curatolo made no mention of masks, Halloween or otherwise in his testimony. Your primary source should be the testimony he gave on the stand and Massei's Report where he addresses Curatolo's testimony.
 
It is very clear that Toto had his days confused. Fulcanelli tries to hide this fact. He knows as well as Fine that Toto is not credible.

Fine jumps in about the masks. It is clear that Fulcanelli is claiming that Toto never talked about costumes, confusing the day. If Fulcanelli would like to clarify his position that would be great.

Bruce, go back and read your reply to Fulcanelli again.

Italy doesn't celebrate Halloween. So the mask wearing would not have been on Oct 31st as you assert.

Given Curatolo's testimony does, in fact, include references to people in costumes, I think you're both a bit wrong on this one.

Fulcanelli - costumes were mentioned by Curatolo, whether masks were specifically mentioned or not
Bruce - costumes mean it was Nov 1st or 2nd, not Oct 31st (not sure if Nov 2nd is celebrated the same as Nov 1st, regardless, the mentioning of costumes does not cast this testimony into the "errant" category)


ETA: Fulcanelli, can you post the actual transcript of Curatolo's testimony? (Translated and untranslated would be a plus)
 
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And it's wrong. Curatolo made no mention of masks, Halloween or otherwise in his testimony. Your primary source should be the testimony he gave on the stand and Massei's Report where he addresses Curatolo's testimony.

No. Past statements by witnesses are used to impeach witnesses in courts across the land. If he made a witness statement refuting his statement on the stand, then his testimony is factually inconsistent.
 
Bruce, go back and read your reply to Fulcanelli again.

Italy doesn't celebrate Halloween. So the mask wearing would not have been on Oct 31st as you assert.

Given Curatolo's testimony does, in fact, include references to people in costumes, I think you're both a bit wrong on this one.

Fulcanelli - costumes were mentioned by Curatolo
Bruce - costumes mean it was Nov 1st or 2nd, not Oct 31st (not sure if Nov 2nd is celebrated the same as Nov 1st, regardless, the mentioning of costumes does not cast this testimony into the "errant" category)

They celebrate Halloween in Perugia.
 
I believe Kevin_Lowe, was demanding this cite, in between calling everyone liars:

Lawyers for Raffaele Sollecito, one of three people accused of murdering the British student Meredith Kercher, have claimed for the first time that DNA belonging to Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede could be on the victim's bra clasp.

Prosecutors had previously said only the DNA of Sollecito, Knox's boyfriend, was on the clasp. They argued it proved his involvement in Kercher's murder last November in Perugia.

Francesco Vinci, a forensic expert hired by Sollecito's legal team, said the DNA of all three suspects and two other unidentified people might be on the bra.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/27/meredith-kercher-murder-trial-bra


And:


Murder suspect Amanda Knox's DNA was found on a piece of bloody bra belonging to Meredith Kercher, lawyers for her former boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito sensationally claimed today.
The dramatic announcement blew apart theories that Knox and Sollecito had teamed up in a pact against third fellow suspect Ivory Coast drifter Rudy Guede, 21.
In a 14 page report submitted by forensics professor Francesco Vinci, who has been retained by Sollecito's legal team, he claimed that Knox and Guede's DNA was on the bra.
Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini and a police forensic report presented to the court in Perugia, where Meredith was murdered, has suggested that computer studies graduate Sollecito's DNA is on the clasp.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...s-bloody-bra-claim-ex-boyfriends-lawyers.html
 
They celebrate Halloween in Perugia.

According to this (first google link I found), Perguia celebrates All Saints Day:

http://www.italytravelescape.com/events-festivals-perugia.htm


And this site (appears to be official Perugia Tourism site, but I could be mistaken) shows that Nov 1st, All Saints Day is a public holiday (scroll to calender list at bottom right of front page):

http://www.perugiaonline.com/oraripgus.html


(a little more research, and it looks like this site is hosted by an Italian advertising company. Official or not, it shows that Perugia celebrates All Saints Day. Whether Halloween is celebrated or not remains to be proven)
 
According to this (first google link I found), Perguia celebrates All Saints Day:

http://www.italytravelescape.com/events-festivals-perugia.htm


And this site (appears to be official Perugia Tourism site, but I could be mistaken) shows that Nov 1st, All Saints Day is a public holiday (scroll to calender list at bottom right of front page):

http://www.perugiaonline.com/oraripgus.html


(a little more research, and it looks like this site is hosted by an Italian advertising company. Official or not, it shows that Perugia celebrates All Saints Day. Whether Halloween is celebrated or not remains to be proven)

I never said they didn't celebrate All Saints Day. Do a little digging. They celebrate Halloween in Perugia.
 
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