• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

Status
Not open for further replies.
BobTheDonkey said:
Because Amanda stated as much during her accusation of Patrick? We've been over this, Mary.
Click to expand...

I know, that's why I don't see why you and Fulcanelli can't answer the question. If you're going on what Amanda said, then Patrick committed the murder alone. By the time the chief of the police and the minister were quoted by the papers (within hours of Amanda's account), the crime had become a sex game, rape and murder committed by three people.

You guys seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize that the images of the crime came not from what the suspects had told them, nor from what had been seen and/or found at the scene, but exclusively from the imaginations of the authorities.
 
Fulcanelli said:
No evidence? Aside from the autopsy revealing sexual activity that was possibly forced, she'd been stripped naked!
Click to expand...

Why does that suggest three attackers?

That's on top of Amanda having told police that they wanted to have some fun with Meredith, that 'Patrick wanted her' and that he had raped her.
Click to expand...

Why does that suggest Amanda and Raffaele participated in the crime?
 
Last edited:
Mary_H said:
I know, that's why I don't see why you and Fulcanelli can't answer the question. If you're going on what Amanda said, then Patrick committed the murder alone. By the time the chief of the police and the minister were quoted by the papers (within hours of Amanda's account), the crime had become a sex game, rape and murder committed by three people.

You guys seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize that the images of the crime came not from what the suspects had told them, nor from what had been seen and/or found at the scene, but exclusively from the imaginations of the authorities.
Click to expand...
Imaginations?


The scene in Meredith's bedroom had been set to look like a rape.

Amanda pinned it on Patrick
Amanda was Raffaele's alibi
If Amanda was lying about where she was and what happened that night, and was involved as she later said - why not expect Raffaele was there as well? He's covering for her, she's covering for him - whichever, there's every reason to believe he was involved.

Given that there was reason to believe multiple attackers and Amanda claimed to have stayed in the kitchen...it surely makes sense.
 
Mary_H said:
I know, that's why I don't see why you and Fulcanelli can't answer the question. If you're going on what Amanda said, then Patrick committed the murder alone. By the time the chief of the police and the minister were quoted by the papers (within hours of Amanda's account), the crime had become a sex game, rape and murder committed by three people.

You guys seem to be unable or unwilling to recognize that the images of the crime came not from what the suspects had told them, nor from what had been seen and/or found at the scene, but exclusively from the imaginations of the authorities.
Click to expand...

No. Under Italian law, if you stand by while someone murders another you are equally guilty of murder. And she'd done more then that, according to her story to police...she'd actually 'facilitated' the attack by bringing Patrick back to the cottage so he could have Meredith. She had then kept silent about it afterwards. They also only had Amanda's word that she'd taken no physical part in the murder anyway.

Also, you are assuming that the only thing they could be arrested for was 'murder'. She wasn't arrested for murder because no charges had been brought at that point and weren't brought until October 2008. There were many things they could be held for, not only murder. For a start, as a witness, telling lies to the police is a 'crime'. They had done worse, they'd perverted the course of justice. Add failure to report a crime to the list. Also add on carrying a knife (Raffaele). There was more than murder to arrest them for.
 
Last edited:
Fulcanelli said:
Also, you are assuming that the only thing they could be arrested for was 'murder'. She wasn't arrested for murder because no charges had been brought at that point and weren't brought until October 2008. There were many things they could be held for, not only murder. For a start, as a witness, telling lies to the police is a 'crime'. They had done worse, they'd perverted the course of justice. Add failure to report a crime to the list. Also add on carrying a knife (Raffaele). There was more than murder to arrest them for.
Click to expand...

That all happened later. How did the authorities come to announce to the press that the three suspects had together committed a rape and murder?
Click to expand...
 
BobTheDonkey said:
Imaginations?

The scene in Meredith's bedroom had been set to look like a rape.
Click to expand...

Is this what the police claimed on the 6th, or later on?

Amanda pinned it on Patrick
Amanda was Raffaele's alibi
If Amanda was lying about where she was and what happened that night, and was involved as she later said - why not expect Raffaele was there as well? He's covering for her, she's covering for him - whichever, there's every reason to believe he was involved.

Given that there was reason to believe multiple attackers and Amanda claimed to have stayed in the kitchen...it surely makes sense.
Click to expand...

None of what you have listed above should have led the police to conclude that Amanda, Patrick and Raffaele were in the bedroom together playing a sex game with Meredith and then killing her when she refused. But that is the scenario the authorities reported to the papers the day Amanda was arrested.
 
Fulancelli writes this:

When one all has left is to attack individuals (such as Barbie Nadeau) or other forums, it's a clear sign they have no actual argument left.

Half an hour later, he writes this:

Candace Dempsey is 'not' a source. Do you have anything better then a bored housewife who joined the FOA because she though it would finally make people take her seriously and think she's important?

Grimly amusing...
 
LondonJohn said:
The dilemma often arises because the suspect is told that the "accomplice" has turned against him/her, and that as a result he/she is in big trouble. The suspect is often also told (sometimes disingenuously) that other evidence (forensic, identification, other) has been discovered that puts him/her even further into the frame. The suspect is then told that his/her best course of action, given this seemingly hopeless position, is to confess in order to mitigate any future sentence.
Click to expand...

It should be pointed out that in America, police are allowed to lie to suspects, and that the plea agreement system creates an additional incentive (whomever 'confesses' first gets charged with a lesser crime and has a lighter sentence).

It's been said on this thread that the Italian system does not have plea bargaining, which would change the dynamic somewhat. In fact, the wikipedia article seems to suggest by omission that the police cannot lie to a witness about having forensic evidence or accomplice accusations they apparently must tell a indagato of the evidence against them, and someone who is not a indagato being told of such "evidence" would then have a procedural defense roughly analagous to not being Mirandized.

Of course none of this negates the fact that false confessions happen (I don't think anybody on this thread has denied that), but at the very least it does hi-lite again the limitations of using American examples to draw conclusions about this case.

ETA: I just realized that I made an implicit Americentric assumption myself. I don't know if Italian law has anything similar to "fruit of the poisoned tree" If not then the procedural defense I note is weakened somewhat.
 
Last edited:
Mary_H said:
Is this what the police claimed on the 6th, or later on?
Click to expand...
What? Are you asking if, on the 6th, the Police claimed that the scene was staged?

Obviously, the scene was staged on the night of the 1st/morning of the 2nd. For all purposes, the Police rightfully suspected they were investigating a rape (whether it truly happened or not is irrelevant given that the body had been arranged to entice the Police into believing a rape had occurred).

This is what's ridiculous about you, Mary. Your insistence on remaining dumbfounded that the Police could make the statement that they suspected a rape happened when that's exactly what the scene in the cottage had been arranged to portray. That this matches what Amanda suggested Patrick had done that night, that the preliminary forensics pointed to more than one assailant, that Amanda placed herself there, and that Raffaele lost his alibi when Amanda lost hers (and thereby became an accomplice to Amanda for lying about her whereabouts) all seems to be lost on you because you refuse, blatantly, to allow that the Police had what, at the time, amounted to good reason to arrest Amanda, Raffaele, and Patrick.

You then ignore that the Police found Patrick to not be involved and subsequently released while there was evidence enough to pursue a trial against Amanda and Raffaele.

There was good reason to suspect Amanda and Raffaele were involved in, at a minimum, a coverup of the murder on the 6th. There was good reason to believe there had been a rape (Amanda's accusation, preliminary forensics evidence). For the Police to state as much publicly does not, in any way, take away from this.
 
Last edited:
Bruce Fisher said:
Candace is attacked because she is feared by the guilter crowd.
Click to expand...


OMG I really think I am Candace's next target. I like Italian food and I have been to Italy a few times too. We have so much in common she may want to start investigating me. I hope I can hide the motorcycle speeding ticket I got 2 years ago....mamma mia!!
 
LondonJohn said:
Those two "simple statements" took around 30 seconds. If AK did indeed crumble after just such statements, and sobbingly confessed to meeting Lumumba, going to the house, hearing Lumumba kill Meredith, and covering her ears to block out the screams, then I'd agree that she has a lot of explaining to do.

But what if these two "simple statements" were merely a starting off point for a continuing interrogation (during, for example, the further 14m30sec or 19m30sec at our disposal in either fictional scenario). What if there was an escalation of accusations, suggestions, promises and intimidation? What if it was this that actually caused AK to break down?

PS just for the record - once again - I'm not a cheerleader for AK (or any of the others). I just can't intellectually reconcile AK's actions on the night of the 5/6 Nov with any explanation other than that her "confession" and naming of Lumumba were heavily coerced. To me, every other explanation falls into one or other logical traps.
Click to expand...

I'm just the opposite.

I cannot figure out an acceptable scenario--without employing torture--where a completely innocent person goes from standing by her original story, making love, discussing lesbianism, having a shower, cooking fish, noticing blood on Raffaele's hands, etc, etc, etc, to an entirely different one where she is standing in the cottage, covering her ears to avoid hearing Meredith's screams, while Patrick is sexually assaulting and ultimately knifing her.

The problem isn't just having her shrug off the suggestion that RS wasn't backing up her alibi. She doesn't just answer: Who cares what Raffaele said? He's lying. She makes up another elaborate scenario that has absolutely no resemblance to the original one. She doesn't 'crumble' and confess. She creates a completely different story.

Do you have any examples of that happening in your false confession library? I have read most of those presented here and there's nothing quite like it.
 
stilicho said:
I'm just the opposite.

I cannot figure out an acceptable scenario--without employing torture--where a completely innocent person goes from standing by her original story, making love, discussing lesbianism, having a shower, cooking fish, noticing blood on Raffaele's hands, etc, etc, etc, to an entirely different one where she is standing in the cottage, covering her ears to avoid hearing Meredith's screams, while Patrick is sexually assaulting and ultimately knifing her.
Click to expand...

And yet you constantly say any normal person is capable of murder.
 
Bruce Fisher said:
Sorry Bob, but Fulcanelli/Michael needs to be put in his place. He along with the rest of his PMF clan has done everything in their power to destroy two innocent people's lives.

....

Destroying two innocent lives will bring no peace and certainly no justice for Meredith.
Click to expand...

This verges on personalising the debate. No need for it.

If you think AK and RS are not guilty then what are you really doing to help their cause? So far, the Italian justice system that you despise so much has done infinitely more than you have to provide AK and RS with every avenue available to secure their freedom. Is Sollecito ever going to be allowed to talk in his own defence? Is Amanda ever going to recover her memory and explain exactly what happened that night? Those two things are absolutely essential before they are able to recover their own lives.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Fulcanelli. Amanda and Raffaele just have to tell the truth.
 
stilicho said:
I believe in personal volition and the responsibility of the individual for his or her actions. Is that too medieval for you?
Click to expand...

No. But I also don't think that you are personally capable of murdering someone. I would hope you thought that of other people, but things you've said in the past indicate you think every average Joe could become depraved enough to murder someone on any given day.
 
HumanityBlues said:
It's just odd to me that he can't envision the scenario he was discussing EVER occurring, and yet thinks everybody on planet Earth is capable of murder.
Click to expand...

I can envision the scenario if the individual is tortured or is lying.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom