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Amanda Knox guilty - all because of a cartwheel

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Right. I want to say something about the "confession" made by Amanda Knox during her police interrogation of the 5/6 November.

I preface my argument by saying - once again - that I'm not a cheerleader for AK (or RS or RG for that matter). I'm simply trying to look at things through a clear lens of disinterested analysis. It may well be that I am wrong, naive, uninformed or guilty of poor logic in my arguments, but I'm NOT arguing with a particular agenda in mind.

I think the overarching point of huge significance in this regard is that people sometimes confess to things that they didn't do. There's a wealth of evidence to support this assertion. Sometimes these false confessions come completely unprovoked from people who have a desire to insert themselves into an "exciting" scenario - such people are usually mentally unbalanced, and it's also usually not hard for police to quickly discount their confession (although, before this phenomenon was widely known, there were some truly horrible miscarriages where these sorts of confessions were taken entirely at face value, and the case was effectively closed - juries were essentially told that since Mr A had confessed to the crime, it was an open-and-shut case).

The second form of false confession, and the one that's more relevant to this case, is the one where someone is - shall we say - "coerced" into making a full or partial confession. And this form very often also involves potential accomplices. The confession comes because the suspect feels placed on the horns of a dilemma, coupled with feeling intimidated and confused. The dilemma often arises because the suspect is told that the "accomplice" has turned against him/her, and that as a result he/she is in big trouble. The suspect is often also told (sometimes disingenuously) that other evidence (forensic, identification, other) has been discovered that puts him/her even further into the frame. The suspect is then told that his/her best course of action, given this seemingly hopeless position, is to confess in order to mitigate any future sentence.

This is all a modified form of the well-known "prisoner's dilemma" game, which itself is a backbone of the whole area of game theory. And the suspect in the scenario that I've painted above is essentially being asked to engage in a dangerous example of game theory, with no zero-sum outcome. The options being placed in front of the suspect in this game are essentially "bad" or "worse".

Now, a layperson would say - with some justification - "But why would an innocent person confess, even under such extenuating circumstances?". The answer lies in the incredibly complex application of game theory that's taking place here. And in addition to the game theory aspect, the suspect is often bewildered and angry to be told that their supposed ally has turned against him/her. Add in some well-tested psychological pressures from the interrogating police ("good cop / bad cop" or - heaven forbid - verbal or physical abuse), and you have a situation where strange things can happen.

For a fairly good example of just how people can "confess" under these sorts of circumstances, please read about this case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Downing_case

I apologise for my relentless Anglocentricity (is that a word?!), and it's not exactly analogous to the Kercher case admittedly, since there's no accomplice "turning" to add to the pressure, and since Downing had a low mental age. But many other things tally. It's clear that the confession evidence had a big bearing on the conviction (and, interestingly enough, the way in which some of the forensic evidence was presented with academic certainty draws some parallels too).

So, I think it's CRUCIALLY important to place the AK "confession" in context. I'd add that for those who'd argue something like: "Well, I could just about buy her blurting out a false confession in the interview room, but the fact that she wrote it down some hours later tells me that she knew and meant exactly what she was saying", the game theory elements would still apply to her written "confession", especially since she still hadn't consulted an attorney at that point. In other words, she may still have believed that she was making her situation the "least bad" through her actions.

Of course, it's entirely possible that AK did indeed make a frank confession to a crime in which she actually did play at least a part. However, in that respect, I'd argue that it's hard to reconcile her naming Lumumba as the killer. She could not have had any knowledge of his whereabouts at the time of the murder, and had no real malicious reasons to place him in the frame (other than that she may or may not have been sacked by him days previously). The naming of Lumumba can be somewhat better explained - I think - if one sees it in the context of the "prisoner's dilemma"-style scenario:

I think that AK could well have been told by the police that a) RS had turned against her; b) they KNEW from the language in the text message that she had plans to meet Lumumba that evening; c) the fact that AK denied a plan to meet Lumumba - in spite of "proof" to the contrary from the text message - means that the meeting was clandestine and indicative of nefarious activity; d) all these factors, when coupled with the "inevitable" damning forensic evidence that was surely forthcoming, would send AK down for a very long time for murder; e) that she could help herself by "confessing" right here and now - a judge would look very kindly on that; f) maybe she didn't actively participate in the murder, and if she included that in her confession then once again this would improve her final outcome.

IF some or all that scenario WAS placed before AK that night, then it's perfectly logically possible to conclude that a "confession" in which she admitted some sort of prior planning (though not a plan to murder), placed herself at the murder scene, and implicated a person about whom the police already seemed to have some strong suspicions of involvement, was her "least bad" strategy.

Now, this is just ONE interpretation of events that night, and it's intended to show that such an interpretation CAN reasonably be made. Moreover, this interpretation is based on a wider understanding of false confessions or coerced confessions. My personal belief is that this particular confession WAS false and coerced. That doesn't mean that I necessarily believe that AK is either uninvolved in this crime, nor that she should necessarily be judged not guilty of this crime (and there's an important difference between the two). But I believe that the whole confession area could and should be challenged on appeal. I further think that if it's argued properly in appeal, it could lead to one of the strands of my metaphorical rope (see earlier posts) being removed. Whether the removal of this strand would cause the rope to break under tension is another matter of course.

Pffft, I knew working from home today was a mistake........
 
Were you not aware that Murdoch has owned The Times/Sunday Times since 1981?

In the UK, contrary to what many seem to assume, the precedent for disseminating “leaks” from the Italian prosection as factual was not set by ‘tabloids’ (such as the Daily Mail), but by The Times. It was the first paper to report the “crime scene cleanup” and “bleach receipts” lies (the same hack, sorry - columnist dutifully accommodated Mignini thenceforth).

Nov 19th 2007;

Suspect ‘bought bleach to clean murder weapon after Meredith Kercher’s death’


This was well before the case began to be ‘sensationalised’ outside Italy, other editors then sending in their own "columnists" to join the feeding frenzy (to a large extent a matter of their moronic “monkey see, monkey do”, joiner mentality).

The two ‘factoids’ I just mentioned, and many others, are now ‘memes’ which are parroted to this day, never having been explicitly corrected or clarified by these same “news outlets” (or the Italian prosecution).

Thus, for example, even after the verdict in December 2009, the monumentally egregious Ann Coulter, affirming her support for the Italian ‘authorities’ (and her seething envy of attractive, free-spirited youngsters from educated, liberal backgrounds), blithely iterated them and several others on TV, including the “Knox was caught with a mop in her hand” BS (guilters, of course, now luurrve this appalling woman).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLld_dMa4EI

The Times continued to put "columnists" on the story, such as a certain John Follain - to give you an idea of this man’s class;

Kercher trial; Amanda Knox snared by her kust and her lies.

Follain is already trying to cash in with his own “definitive” book on the case, which of course takes Knox’s and Sollicito’s guilt as given, and undoubtedly contains plenty of the usual, juicy ‘speculation’ about all that sex and violence (I do not have the slightest intention of ever reading it to confirm this, and regret having to make its existence known to anyone).

Faux News and Sky News, also Murdoch-owned, two of the biggest, if not THE biggest TV "news outlets" in the world, also gave conspicuous amounts of bland, ‘on-message’ coverage of the “leaks” and innuendo about Knox. Why did Sky News see fit to invite a so-called “criminal psychiatrist" to “analyse Amanda knox’s writings” and pontificate about “A picture of a young woman …. who was self-obessed, who showed a lack of remorse [sic!!], who was enjoying the fame, the notoriety, the infamy...”? He was, of course, talking out of his arse, as any ethical psychologist would tell you.

”prison diaries reveal self-obsessed Knox”

A little OT, but speaking of The Times;

Murdoch was only able to buy the paper (along with the Sunday Times) in 1981 because the recently installed Thatcher administration went as far as radically overhauling regulation of media ownership in the UK to allow him to do so – it would otherwise have been prevented because he was already the proprietor of a national newspaper (The Sun/News Of The World, with which he dragged the ethics of “tabloid journalism” down to an all-time low, where it has remained) and a national TV broadcaster (Sky).

At the time, those who were paying attention were aghast at the shameless cronyism between him and the Thatcher regime (and the latter’s typically contemptuousness disregard for the public interest) - even ‘Tiny’ Rowland, who was subsequently “out-bid” for the Times by Murdoch, backed a lobby for a public enquiry into his and the governments’ machinations.

The Times (i.e. Murdoch) thenceforth played a conspicuous role in keeping the Conservatives in power (surprise, surprise) for the following decade and a half , allowing it to complete its program of asset-stripping UK PLC via relentless “privatisation” (some of the proceeds from this being used to bribe sections of the public into renewing their "mandate" at 2 subsequent general elections).

Yes, somehow News Group's ownership of the Times group slipped my mind. And it's indeed true that he rode roughshod over prior media ownership regulations to gain ownership of a second daily and Sunday title. I wonder why the rules have never subsequently been re-modified and applied retrospectively....?

I also agree with your comments regarding media leaking. Apart from being an unedifying spectacle, it clearly leads both sides down the path to a "mutually-assured destruction" outcome, where leaks are answered by counter-leaks, which are answered by counter-counter-leaks, and so on. It's plain to see how this can potentially have a tremendously adverse effect on justice, and I hope that Italian legislators would view this case as a strong reason to re-examine their sub-judice rules.

BTW, not sure I'm in full agreement with your passionate critique of the Conservative government of 1979-97. But in a liberal democracy, we're all entitled to hold strong political viewpoints :D
 
I don't follow you, Fine. You wrote:

"Yes, the police found some visible bloody shoeprints in the hallway (later identified as Rudy's shoeprints) which were labeled and photographed by the police, and later cleaned up by the police."

What exactly are you trying to straighten out?

Mary,

Permit me to review the discussion.

I am saying that the cops cleaned up those---and only those--- shoeprints which they visually identified as bloody shoeprints and only erased them AFTER they had been labeled and photographed.

While you, I believe, are claiming that the cops erased other shoeprints, such as other shoeprints left by Rudy outside of Meredith door.

I asked for evidence that the cops would do something so stupid, and in violation of standard forensic protocol.

You responded with the claim that the cops had cleaned some other spots of the hallway because, under luminol, there was no sign of the shoeprints left by the "five visitors" (cops, Filomena, her friends) on November 2nd, just prior to kicking in Meredith's door.

I said that the visitors' shoeprints shouldn't have glowed in luminol, otherwise there would be lots of such glowing shoeprints---left by Amanda and Meredith---in the bathroom and Amanda's room, and left in those rooms prior to the day of the murder.

So, I concluded, you have not, in fact, provided good reason to think that the cops cleaned up shoeprints of Rudy except those labeled and photographed by the cops. And there is exactly ONE such shoeprint of Rudy, labeled and photographed, outside of Meredith's door.

So,.....can you provide some other reason to think that the cops cleaned the hallway of shoeprints other than those identified, labeled, and photographed?

///
 
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PS. I'm waiting for "Sherlock Holmes" to make a point that's already obvious - just so I can reply with "No ◊◊◊◊, Sherlock".....

I think that my second espresso may have been a mistake.
 
Every reference Mignini made to Amanda's sexuality and sexual history is evidence of a cultural bias. The prosecution may legitimately, albeit falsely, claim they have a modicum of circumstantial evidence of Amanda's involvement in the crime, but they can't claim to have one iota of her being involved sexually. That is completely the product of Mignini's imagination and the other judges' willingness to be persuaded to agree.

You knowingly misrepresent me when you write: "...your position that the entire Italian Judiciary is corrupt...."


Are you suggesting that such tactics would be unheard of in, say, a U.S. court? They wouldn't, you know. I could provide examples ad nauseum, but I don't think I need to.

The idea that an Italian jury is a priori more sexually repressed or more easily swayed by titillation and sexual innuendo is really quite humorous. I suspect that the U.S. is more accurately portrayed as the prudes of the western world than any country in Europe. The Clinton/Lewinski furor is a great example. While we were bringing our government to a standstill for months and going to the proverbial wall with preidential impeachment proceedings over a single casual dalliance the rest of the world was essentially wondering what the big deal was.

It seems to me that every time someone tries to highlight some fundamental cultural or structural difference in the Italian system to explain why such a supposed failure of justice as the conviction of Knox could occur it turns out that conditions here are really no better and often arguably worse. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I think that she may be fortunate she was in Italy. I don't see her chances of conviction here as significantly less likely, and there is no doubt in my mind that the consequent sentence could have been far more severe. An American DA would have aimed for nothing less than LWOP.

Would you care to explain in more detail exactly what this "cultural bias" in Italy consists of, and how it specifically contributed to an unfair conviction? It was this allegation as much as any of the other thinly (and not so thinly) veiled xenophobic rants in our media which caused me to question the reporting on the case to begin with.
 
PS. I'm waiting for "Sherlock Holmes" to make a point that's already obvious - just so I can reply with "No ◊◊◊◊, Sherlock".....
.

I really have no idea what point that might be, I tend to agree with a lot of what you have been saying.

I too believe the confession was cohersed to some degree, but subsitute the name Patrick with Rudy and you might have something closer to the truth. I also feel, even if someone confesses, you still don't get the whole truth, they will make themselves look not as bad as they actually were.

If Amanda really had nothing to do with it, she definately should have told the police Patrick was innocent at some point, and she should have said she was sorry to him during the trial.
 
The second form of false confession, and the one that's more relevant to this case, is the one where someone is - shall we say - "coerced" into making a full or partial confession. And this form very often also involves potential accomplices. The confession comes because the suspect feels placed on the horns of a dilemma, coupled with feeling intimidated and confused. The dilemma often arises because the suspect is told that the "accomplice" has turned against him/her, and that as a result he/she is in big trouble. The suspect is often also told (sometimes disingenuously) that other evidence (forensic, identification, other) has been discovered that puts him/her even further into the frame. The suspect is then told that his/her best course of action, given this seemingly hopeless position, is to confess in order to mitigate any future sentence.

That's how it works. One of the most well-known cases in the US was that of Christopher Ochoa, who is now an attorney in Wisconsin. Here is an article about him:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...N-ochoa_24met.ART.State.Edition2.4657628.html

Quote: "At some point you think, 'If I just get out of here, if this will just stop, I can go talk to an attorney,' " he now says.

Interestingly the detective who got Ochoa to confess, Hector Polanco, was also involved in another well-known Austin case - the yogurt shop murders - which may be one for the record books... they've had more than 50 confessions over the years.
 
They took the towels from wherever and used them to stand on, a little bathmat shuffle and *hey presto* no bloody RF or AK footprints in the room, and bloody towels amassed in the corner. AK fetched the bathmat for RS to shuffle to the bathroom on. Blood mixed with water because he had been using water to wash something inside the room. The missing heel may be accounted for by the presence of a second towel/shirt/whatever underfoot during the scooting.

The bloody towels were found underneath the victim, not in the corner.

This kind of activity would have left streaks on the floor or some kind of trace. And besides, why would anyone do this? It makes no sense.
 
The bloody towels were found underneath the victim, not in the corner.

This kind of activity would have left streaks on the floor or some kind of trace. And besides, why would anyone do this? It makes no sense.

The towels *ended up* underneath the victim?

Not necessarily streaks. Stop the blood from spreading with one towel and shuffle along behind it.

Raff did the bathmat shuffle with the mixed water and blood from his activities in the murder room.
 
I really have no idea what point that might be, I tend to agree with a lot of what you have been saying.

I too believe the confession was cohersed to some degree, but subsitute the name Patrick with Rudy and you might have something closer to the truth. I also feel, even if someone confesses, you still don't get the whole truth, they will make themselves look not as bad as they actually were.

If Amanda really had nothing to do with it, she definately should have told the police Patrick was innocent at some point, and she should have said she was sorry to him during the trial.

Ahh sorry - it truly wasn't intended as an insult of any kind to you. I like your posts. And what I said wasn't meant to imply in any way that you tend to post "obvious" comments/opinions (in fact it probably implied quite the reverse). It was just a joke based on your username and the phrase "No ◊◊◊◊, Sherlock" - which is a phrase used in reply to someone who's just said something that's blindingly obvious. I'm genuinely sorry if it was misunderstood. Too much caffeine can make a man see lame jokes where none exist.....
 
They took the towels from wherever and used them to stand on, a little bathmat shuffle and *hey presto* no bloody RF or AK footprints in the room, and bloody towels amassed in the corner. AK fetched the bathmat for RS to shuffle to the bathroom on. Blood mixed with water because he had been using water to wash something inside the room. The missing heel may be accounted for by the presence of a second towel/shirt/whatever underfoot during the scooting.

So you don't believe that there was any clean up effort, you feel that they scooted around the cottage on towels?

Both the clean up effort and the scooting scenario would have left behind evidence.

There is no evidence of a clean up. This has already been discussed.

Scooting would have disturbed Rudy's prints, set in Meredith's blood, on the floor. There would have been streak marks on the floor.

In order to find a way to put Amanda and Raffaele in Meredith's room at the time of the murder, you have to come up with a scenario that doesn't make any sense.

The truth is much more clear. Amanda and Raffaele were not there.
 
That's how it works. One of the most well-known cases in the US was that of Christopher Ochoa, who is now an attorney in Wisconsin. Here is an article about him:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...N-ochoa_24met.ART.State.Edition2.4657628.html

Quote: "At some point you think, 'If I just get out of here, if this will just stop, I can go talk to an attorney,' " he now says.

Interestingly the detective who got Ochoa to confess, Hector Polanco, was also involved in another well-known Austin case - the yogurt shop murders - which may be one for the record books... they've had more than 50 confessions over the years.

Yes, I've heard of this case before. Thanks for the link though. The case is a tragedy on so many levels, not least because of the irreversible brain injury suffered by one of the wrongly-convicted men while in prison. The story of the redemption of Ochoa is indeed uplifting though.

And yes, it illustrates very succinctly just how people can confess to very serious and grave crimes that they didn't actually commit - quite contrary to the seeming logic against making such a confession. I'd repeat, however - for balance - that just since it happened in the case you've quoted doesn't of course imply that it happened in the Kercher case. But many of the same factors are present in the AK "confession"; and, as I've said, my personal belief is that her "confession" could likely be ruled wholly invalid as a result. But, again, a "confession" is only one strand of evidence pointing to guilt, particularly in this case. As I previously said, even if the confession-related evidence is successfully challenged on appeal, it's for the appeal judges to decide whether the "rope" is still strong enough to convict without this strand in place (of course, other strands of the "rope" might also be removed in the appeal...).
 
Were the two confessions/declarations that Amanda gave at 1:45 a.m. and 5:45 a.m. on November 6 allowed into evidence or allowed to be used against her? I thought they weren't since she did not have representation during those times. I believe her November 6 memorandum was allowed but I am not so sure of the other two.
 
Thats not me that said that, I say Rudy didn't lock the door because his footsteps leading from the room to out the front door, don't point at Meredith's door. I also don't buy Mary's swivel move either, sorry Mary.


Please describe for us your vision of how rudy would have locked the door (presuming for the purpose of illustration that Rudy did lock the door). Be careful here because I believe you are going to leave out a crucial part.
 
Yes, I knew you were going to go back to the information obtained from the interrogation. The information that we know was not reliable due to the methods used to obtain it.

Why ask the question to begin with? You know the answer?

Let's continue to go in circles.

So any information that points to Amanda's guilt, even if it comes directly from Amanda's lips, will be ignored by you.

Thanks for the admission that nothing will change your mind.
 
If Amanda really had nothing to do with it, she definately should have told the police Patrick was innocent at some point, and she should have said she was sorry to him during the trial.


If your boss had been arrested for a crime you had nothing to do with, would you tell the police that your boss was innocent even though you haven't got a clue about what your boss was doing that night? She did tell them, in writing, the very next morning, that her statements during that interview were not reliable. What more could she have done?

By the time the trial started, Amanda had already been in jail for over a year and had probably heard the stories of what her former boss had been saying about her. Why should she feel sorry for someone that has their freedom?
 
Please describe for us your vision of how rudy would have locked the door (presuming for the purpose of illustration that Rudy did lock the door). Be careful here because I believe you are going to leave out a crucial part.


OK, he had blood on his shoes, he had blood on at least one hand, the hand he used to open the door from the inside, the blood on the side of door came from either his bloody hand, or blood on his cloths that brushed up against it.

He would have to of used his other hand to pull the door shut and used the bloody hand to lock it.

His bloody foot prints would have been pointing directly at the door to do this, then turned and go out the front door. They don't show that at all, his prints by the door would have been thicker and faded towards the front door.

Plus why in the world would he care to lock it in the first place - he has no reason. He has no reason to close the other door either, Filomena's or the front door.
 
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Ahh sorry - it truly wasn't intended as an insult of any kind to you. I like your posts. And what I said wasn't meant to imply in any way that you tend to post "obvious" comments/opinions (in fact it probably implied quite the reverse). It was just a joke based on your username and the phrase "No ◊◊◊◊, Sherlock" - which is a phrase used in reply to someone who's just said something that's blindingly obvious. I'm genuinely sorry if it was misunderstood. Too much caffeine can make a man see lame jokes where none exist.....


Don't worry, none was taken, but I thought I might have missed something you said so I reread your last few posts several times to be sure.:)
 
Please describe for us your vision of how rudy would have locked the door (presuming for the purpose of illustration that Rudy did lock the door). Be careful here because I believe you are going to leave out a crucial part.

I don't think one can determine precise movements from the shoe prints. He only had blood on one part of the sole of one shoe. He left quite a few shoe traces in the kitchen, quite close together. What was that all about?

It would be interesting to know if he could have turned the key on the inside to set the latch, removed the key, and then pulled the door shut behind him, or if he would have had to shut the door and then insert the key to set the lock from the outside.
 
If your boss had been arrested for a crime you had nothing to do with, would you tell the police that your boss was innocent even though you haven't got a clue about what your boss was doing that night? ?


Sorry, but that makes no sense to me - if you want to put me in Amanda's spot instead, and I initially accused him - I would probably stick with that story if I truly was involved and was covering for the real killer, knowing that he could put me in a lot worse trouble.

If I were innocent and did that, I would definitely retract it when I changed my story back to me being innocent - and apologise
 
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