MarkCorrigan
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The Official UK Election Thread! 6th May it is!
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There's a concept. Rambo the liberal.
So you would rather your kids were down t'pit now, howking coal to keep the global fires burning?
Nostalgia for one of the nastiest industries in world history. From a diehard liberal. No contradiction there .
I've been in several coalmines, Fiona.
I don't think we lost so much.
The problem (socially) is what happens to a community hugely dependant on one industry.
Being from Motherwell, I saw the same social effects after the steel industry shut down.
Having seen miners picketing Ravenscraig during their strike actively trying to shut down the furnaces by blocking coal arriving, I'm less impressed by the historic solidarity of the workers than some .
It's arguable the Scottish Steel industry could have been salvaged for another decade or so. The coal industry I truly doubt- but that's on geological grounds rather than socioeconomic. It had to come. I agree it could have been better handled.
I don't think we lost so much.
The problem (socially) is what happens to a community hugely dependant on one industry.
Being from Motherwell, I saw the same social effects after the steel industry shut down.
Having seen miners picketing Ravenscraig during their strike actively trying to shut down the furnaces by blocking coal arriving, I'm less impressed by the historic solidarity of the workers than some .
It's arguable the Scottish Steel industry could have been salvaged for another decade or so. The coal industry I truly doubt- but that's on geological grounds rather than socioeconomic. It had to come. I agree it could have been better handled.
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Political parties are not monolithic entities, and there are often compromises involved in choosing the policies for the manifestoes. There can be as much variation within one party as between two parties, and some groupings within the Tory party may have more in common with the LibDems than, for example, the Thatcherite tendency.
MarkCorrigan
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Wow.
Go and talk to the many towns in Wales who went from very little unemployment to almost 100% practically overnight.
Go and talk to the families workers in Leicestershire who had to struggle when they found out they didn't have jobs anymore.
Go and talk to any coalmining community. ANY one, and tell them that it's a-ok that they went through deprivation and poverty because hey, the miones sure did suck!
I give you five minutes before you're torn apart.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
I'm not sure I follow exactly what's wrong with the way the LibDems have behaved. They've held discussions with the two major parties, negotiated a mutually workable settlement with one of them (incidentally, the one that polled the most votes and won the most seats), and entered into an agreement that should give a good outcome for the country given the circumstances forced on them by the electorate. Which bit of this was morally reprehensible?
Dave
In fact I've had the debate in South Wales. Nobody tore anybody apart, though a great deal of Brains SA had been consumed.
The question we should be asking is this:- How do we structure communities so they are NOT so vulnerable to the shutdown of a single business?
The same question might be asked of a national economy. At what point should a nation support unprofitable industries, because it needs the industries, rather than the profit?
What I can't understand - and I grew up in a mining area- is why in hell anyone wants to preserve the status quo that created such places in the first place. This is the aspect of Scottish (and Welsh) Socialism that truly appals me- it's innate, bloody conservatism.
True up to a point- but surely the existence of parties at all implies a filtering process? One may agree with some Labour policy and remain a Liberal, but one is unlikely to actually join the Labour Party on that account, far less become an MP.
The implication is that there do exist very fundamental differences. While the reconciliation of difference is what politics is about, there comes a point among professional politicians where it becomes indistinguishable from selling out to achieve power. Hard to see how that could be avoided though.
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richardm
Philosopher
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Judging by the amount of piddling people seem to be planning on doing there, a swimming pool might be more appropriate
I don't think there are many people who dispute that the coal industry could not have been saved in its entirety - clearly pits become exhausted or uneconomical and close, and always have done. The difficulty people have with Thatcher is the way in which they were closed en masse, and the people just dropped like hot bricks and left on the dole queues. And being told, in effect, that it was their own fault they were on the dole, because they were too lazy to leave their communities and go and become bankers like normal people do.
Delscottio
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I find it amusing when people talk about it being a poor situation for local communities to be economically tied to one industry, when the whole country is tied to one industry now.
The other bit here, is the absoulute distain and hatred poured on those who were left without jobs. What did they expect?
Don't get me started on the smearing of single parent families either!
The other bit here, is the absoulute distain and hatred poured on those who were left without jobs. What did they expect?
Don't get me started on the smearing of single parent families either!
Smashing the NUM had nothing to do with health and safety, Soapy!
What about Bob Crow or Tony Woodley of Unite?
A very public battle with either of those might do David Cameron quite a lot of good in a lot of quarters. There's not a lot of love for those unions at the moment, and they are not community based like the mining examples above (not that that should be a relevant reason for or against taking on a Union, but in reality these days almost certainly would be).
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Yeah, and there you have the biggest challenge for getting a PR system. People still have a 2 party mindset. A mindset in which the left wing and right wing are mortal enemies, and it's the one or the other. If there's going to be a PR system, it should even be viable to have labour and tories form a government together. If you're not willing to accept such compromise from your party, then a PR system is not for you. And that's exactly why libdems complaining about them teaming up with the tories are being a hypocrite.
Besides that, this government could be great for the country. Not only is it represented by a clear majority of the people, it's also probably going to be more towards the centre than any other government, because the right wing tories had to make concessions to the more left wing libdems.
Did someone say it had?
The NUM would be gone by now along with the industry that supported it.
The process might have been less painful.
It might have been worse.
I don't know.
Undesired Walrus
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Well seeing how the early ILP movement was to campaign against such dreadful working conditions your argument falls apart.
Thatcher was lucky:
Sending mixed messages about the Falklands then winning (which seems to have been closer than it might have been due to scheduled obsoleting of equipment that was then used)
Then having North Sea oil to hide some of the economic problems.
On top of that, having an unelectable opposition in 1983.
ETA: I remember listening to an American (I think) economist in about 1987, talking about the rise of the service economy, and he stated that "we can't all can't make a living holding doors open for each other", which sums up the problem with not actually creating wealth.
Sending mixed messages about the Falklands then winning (which seems to have been closer than it might have been due to scheduled obsoleting of equipment that was then used)
Then having North Sea oil to hide some of the economic problems.
On top of that, having an unelectable opposition in 1983.
ETA: I remember listening to an American (I think) economist in about 1987, talking about the rise of the service economy, and he stated that "we can't all can't make a living holding doors open for each other", which sums up the problem with not actually creating wealth.
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geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
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Tony Woodley is having a hard time beating BA. Bob Crow on the other hand perhaps has more potential but the tories are unlikely to close the railways or the underground so an alturnative option may be sought.
Tewwowists. The Enemy Within.