Wisconsin Mascot Bill

[Howie Felterbush]

http://www.startribune.com/local/92907104.html

I don't know any Native Americans. Is this really the kind of thing they get spun out about, or is it just a case of someone in government thinking that they should be upset about it? I, for one, would love it if some town named a sports team after me. I can see it now...the Janesville Fighting Howie Felterbushes. Awesome. I have some logo designs in the works...

You don't name your football team the Skirt-Wearin' Pansies or the Golden Douchebags; you name it after something kick-ass, like Tigers or Devil Rays or some other fear-inducing animal. Seems like a compliment to me.

Thoughts?

 

[Madalch]

http://www.startribune.com/local/92907104.html

I don't know any Native Americans. Is this really the kind of thing they get spun out about, or is it just a case of someone in government thinking that they should be upset about it?

There are people of First Nations ancestry that do get ticked off about it.

You don't name your football team the Skirt-Wearin' Pansies or the Golden Douchebags; you name it after something kick-ass, like Tigers or Devil Rays or some other fear-inducing animal. Seems like a compliment to me.

Then explain the Ottawa Senators.

Anyway, I don't think it's the naming per se that's offensive, but the portrayal of the people. The "Chief Wahoo" logo of the whatsit team looks pretty stupid, and by extension, is pretty insulting- nobody likes to have their entire people caricatured. The Chicago Blackhawks don't catch nearly as much flak about it because their logo's not such a caricature.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Then explain the Ottawa Senators.

Good point. Also, I guess penguins aren't that scary, unless you're a mackerel.

This bill doesn't say anything about the appearance of the mascot, just the name.

 

[WildCat]

I never heard of the Badger Indians...


wut?

 

[WildCat]

nobody likes to have their entire people caricatured.

Here's what Wisconsin can ban next:

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

http://www.startribune.com/local/92907104.html

I don't know any Native Americans. Is this really the kind of thing they get spun out about, or is it just a case of someone in government thinking that they should be upset about it? I, for one, would love it if some town named a sports team after me. I can see it now...the Janesville Fighting Howie Felterbushes. Awesome. I have some logo designs in the works...

You don't name your football team the Skirt-Wearin' Pansies or the Golden Douchebags; you name it after something kick-ass, like Tigers or Devil Rays or some other fear-inducing animal. Seems like a compliment to me.

Thoughts?

Skipping over the offensiveness of your examples p), I think it is the generalization of a group of people as "kick ass" that can be offensive. Yes, those red-skins were tomahawk wielding warriors, who also dressed, danced, and spoke in a stereotypical manner (quite often for these teams). Kinda reeks of bastardizing an entire culture for our entertainment.

Oh, wait, I'm being a white guilt librul. Carry on.

 

[Foolmewunz]

http://www.startribune.com/local/92907104.html

I don't know any Native Americans. Is this really the kind of thing they get spun out about, or is it just a case of someone in government thinking that they should be upset about it? I, for one, would love it if some town named a sports team after me. I can see it now...the Janesville Fighting Howie Felterbushes. Awesome. I have some logo designs in the works...

You don't name your football team the Skirt-Wearin' Pansies or the Golden Douchebags; you name it after something kick-ass, like Tigers or Devil Rays or some other fear-inducing animal. Seems like a compliment to me.

Thoughts?

Well, apparently they shouldn't name the team the Janesville Guy Who Reads Articles He Links To-ers.

The article says the superintendent of schools is allowed to, and mentions that if a minority or group complains, the super will hold a hearing to determine if it's derogatory or racist.

I dunno, but to me that sounds downright reasonable, Howie. I know it doesn't make for as much internet drama as your interpretation, but what they hey, a little accuracy wouldn't be such a bad thing, would it?

And, as I suspect you already know, the objection from minorities is generally if it's a derogatory, negatively stereotypical, or insulting use. I think everyone knows the story of the Seminoles and the school whose name must not be spoke in public because I hate their athletic teams.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Well, apparently they shouldn't name the team the Janesville Guy Who Reads Articles He Links To-ers.

The article says the superintendent of schools is allowed to, and mentions that if a minority or group complains, the super will hold a hearing to determine if it's derogatory or racist.

I dunno, but to me that sounds downright reasonable, Howie. I know it doesn't make for as much internet drama as your interpretation, but what they hey, a little accuracy wouldn't be such a bad thing, would it?

And, as I suspect you already know, the objection from minorities is generally if it's a derogatory, negatively stereotypical, or insulting use. I think everyone knows the story of the Seminoles and the school whose name must not be spoke in public because I hate their athletic teams.

It was a very short article, and I did read it, in addition to listening to a short piece about the bill on WPR yesterday morning. I didn't mean to imply that all teams with Indian names were immediately going to go the way of the dodo, I was just curious if this was the kind of thing that Indians really get ticked off about, or if it was just a new non-issue for us to discuss. The fellow on the radio, (who wasn't a Native American, by the way) compared naming your team the Indians to "treating people like animals". I thought this was a bit hyperbolic, so I thought I'd see what y'all thought. If you see this as drama-mongering, then your drama filter needs adjustment.

This is drama mongering: Them gol-durn uppity Injuns want to take our mascots away and they convinced the librul gubmint to burn down any school what uses a redskin fer their football team!!!11

See the difference?

By the way, who's going to watch the Boulder Junction Hokuleles play the Mineral Point Central Scrutinizers tonight? Should be a good game.

 

[Meadmaker]

One thing I know that Native Americans complain about is that the cultural references are often wrong.

When I was at the U of Illinois we had "Chief Illiniwek" for our team the "Fighing Illini". When people started complaining, the defenders of the Chief talked about how it honors Indian traditions. The Indians noted that he sure looked suspiciously like a cartoon charicature of a Sioux Indian, and not much like a real Native American from Illinois.

A few years before I went to U of I, a local high school was convinced to change it's mascot name because of racial overtones. For the last 30 years, people have cheered on the Pekin Dragons, but I am assured by a colleague who grew up in Pekin that locally, everyone still refers to them by their old name, the "Chinks".

 

[Howie Felterbush]

...snip... For the last 30 years, people have cheered on the Pekin Dragons, but I am assured by a colleague who grew up in Pekin that locally, everyone still refers to them by their old name, the "Chinks".

OK, now that's offensive.

As a fifteen HD red dragon, I resent the objectification of my species for something as trivial as a high school sports team.

 

[Foolmewunz]

It was a very short article, and I did read it, in addition to listening to a short piece about the bill on WPR yesterday morning. I didn't mean to imply that all teams with Indian names were immediately going to go the way of the dodo, I was just curious if this was the kind of thing that Indians really get ticked off about, or if it was just a new non-issue for us to discuss. The fellow on the radio, (who wasn't a Native American, by the way) compared naming your team the Indians to "treating people like animals". I thought this was a bit hyperbolic, so I thought I'd see what y'all thought. If you see this as drama-mongering, then your drama filter needs adjustment.

This is drama mongering: Them gol-durn uppity Injuns want to take our mascots away and they convinced the librul gubmint to burn down any school what uses a redskin fer their football team!!!11

See the difference?

By the way, who's going to watch the Boulder Junction Hokuleles play the Mineral Point Central Scrutinizers tonight? Should be a good game.

Sorry, Howie. I really did have trouble thinking you'd never seen or heard this issue discussed. It's been around the block about four thousand times over the past thirty years, and as "official" reactions/policies go, this WI one is one of the more sensible I've seen. If it's really kinda new to you, then my apologies.

 

[WildCat]

One thing I know that Native Americans complain about is that the cultural references are often wrong.

When I was at the U of Illinois we had "Chief Illiniwek" for our team the "Fighing Illini". When people started complaining, the defenders of the Chief talked about how it honors Indian traditions. The Indians noted that he sure looked suspiciously like a cartoon charicature of a Sioux Indian, and not much like a real Native American from Illinois.

A few years before I went to U of I, a local high school was convinced to change it's mascot name because of racial overtones. For the last 30 years, people have cheered on the Pekin Dragons, but I am assured by a colleague who grew up in Pekin that locally, everyone still refers to them by their old name, the "Chinks".

Over 10 years ago, at the ast Wilco show at the late great Lounge Ax, they performed their song "Kingpin" which has the lyrics:
"I want to be your kingpin, living in Pekin"

Someone threw a Pekin Chinks t-shirt on stage and Jeff Tweedy put it on. There was actually a caricature on it that was just as offensive as the name.

 

[Bikewer]

NPR had a segment on Morning Edition about this. Someone pointed out that portraying a group of people as "mascot" was a bit odd... How about the "Cotton-Picking Negros" or the "San Antonio Wetbacks"?
Our high school used the "Cavalier" for it's mascot; a mounted knight. Pretty inoffensive...

 

[casebro]

the "Cavalier" for it's mascot; a mounted knight. Pretty inoffensive...

Sounds pretty offensive to the Middle East, in which it would invoke images of "The Crusades", a war which they lost. Hmmm, maybe that is the key to what gets peoples riled up? Once you have lost, you will be forever reminded that "you are a loser"?

So, no caricatures of either winners or losers?

"Tonight's game is between the "Casper Milquetoasts" and the "Chicago Mundanes", winner to face the "Harrison Bergerons" in the play offs".

 

[mikedenk]

A high school from my home state: the Aniak Halfbreeds. The school's symbol is a picture of a native man holding a spear next to a white man holding a rifle.

http://www.maxpreps.com/high-schools/t-uwAxG4vEq2LGeY9HGqow/aniak-halfbreeds/home.htm

NPR had a segment on Morning Edition about this. Someone pointed out that portraying a group of people as "mascot" was a bit odd... How about the "Cotton-Picking Negros" or the "San Antonio Wetbacks"?
Our high school used the "Cavalier" for it's mascot; a mounted knight. Pretty inoffensive...

I don't think it's all that odd.

Fighting Irish
Celtics
Hoosiers
Spartans
Trojans
Tar Heels
Vikings
Vandals

 

[Ladewig]

Sounds pretty offensive to the Middle East, in which it would invoke images of "The Crusades", a war which they lost.

The Cavaliers were several hundred years away from the Crusades. But your point stands: there are a few dozen colleges that use Crusaders as their mascot.

 

[Ladewig]

Fighting Irish
Celtics
Hoosiers
Spartans
Trojans
Tar Heels
Vikings
Vandals

Forty-Niners
Scots
Pilgrims
Dutchmen

There are dozens more that do not refer to ethnicity, religion, national origin, or geographic location.

 

[tyr_13]

I think the exact context matters. The Braves or Chiefs? That doesn't strike me different from the Knights or Senators. The Red-skins? Yeah, that's over the line. As for them being cartoonish, they are mascots which are almost all cartoonish.

The local high school mascots here are the Trojans (which, come to think of it, would be anyone from Troy, not just the Hapolites depicted), the Falcons, the Beavers (and yes, the Lady Beavers), the Red Dragons, the Jay-Hawks, the Black Knights, and, I kid you not, the Hillbillies.

The Fredonia Hillbillies. They have an eight and a half foot tall bronze hillbilly statue in their foyer, complete with moonshine jug, musket-rifle, and bib-overalls. The best part is that Fredonia is the rich village next to the poor city of Dunkirk.

 

[Meadmaker]

Certain parts of Detroit used to have a pretty heavily Jewish population. Maybe the local schools, in order to honor the bygone traditions of the area, could have a team called the Detroit Central Jews.

One can only imagine what the mascot and the cheerleader would perform at halftime.

What would be even cooler would be to have the Oak Park High School team be named the Goyim.


For what it's worth, it does seem to me that the Wisconsin law seems like a pretty sensible one. It's the kind of issue that can get people pretty riled up, even though it has almost zero practical consequences. The law basically allows people to leave well enough alone unless someone puts up a stink, and then allows a way for districts to fix the issue if they can. That's not bad.

 

[dudalb]

Skipping over the offensiveness of your examples p), I think it is the generalization of a group of people as "kick ass" that can be offensive. Yes, those red-skins were tomahawk wielding warriors, who also dressed, danced, and spoke in a stereotypical manner (quite often for these teams). Kinda reeks of bastardizing an entire culture for our entertainment.

Oh, wait, I'm being a white guilt librul. Carry on.

Uh, the Tomahawk was a common weapon among Native Americans, and they were very skilled warriors.
THanks a lot for reminding me while I have a dislike for white guilt syndrome.